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Caryota_gigas

Frost experiments from down under

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Caryota_gigas

Well, of all the seedlings I tortured during my frost experiments this winter...

Cycas revoluta

Trachycarpus fortunei

Sabal mauritiiformis

Brahea aculeata

Rhopalostylis sapida "Chatham"

Dypsis oropedionis

Aiphanes horrida

Allagoptera arenaria

Areca triandra

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Beccariophoenix madagascariensis "Southern form"

Dypsis ambositrae

Dypsis onilahensis

Jubaeopsis caffra

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix loureiroi

Plectocomia himalayana

Serenoa repens

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Dypsis decipiens

Howea belmoreana

Only the Dypsis oropedionis has died from its injuries, though my larger in-ground specimen looks fine, but it was under an umbrella nearly all Winter.

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peachy

Michael as so many people live in areas classed as subtropical with frosts, maybe the definative book of frost hardy palms needs to be written. At the last place I lived heavy frosts were a nightly event so my palm collection was limited to a very few species. From your experiments and experience I know now I could have grown many more different species after all. I do know that the more natural protection I have here the bigger variety I can grow. Thanks again.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas

Remember also that my seedling frost experiments were mostly only one offs. That is a palm was usually only subjected to one night of frost, and then left to seehow much damage it received over coming days. The trials did not take into account palms sitting out in the frost for days on end like they might have to do if in ground. Palms such as Areca triandra coped ok with one frost, but had it been subjected to the full 17 we had here this year, I am certain it would have collapsed. I do have 2 small A. triandra under heavy canopy that came through winter fine.

I never liked planting palms under canopy as they can often get lost, or if they are a quick tall grower, they are soon fighting with the canopy... after this winter I have revised my thinking, and the Dypsis species I wanted to plant in open sunny spots are now going to have a bit of overhead protection. While chopping out the Archonto's, I also trimmed out some Yuccas to make way for more Dypsis.

Frost is a funny thing... a thing many people cannot seem to get their heads around. When I say I live in Auckland, New Zealand and my plants got killed by frost, most people say "What??? You get frost in Auckland???" Even people from NZ... even people from Auckland say it! I will look carfully at the geography of the land before buying a new property in the future to make sure cold air does not pool and cause frost. It has taught me a lot this year however, and thats what life is all about.

R.I.P. my frosted friends;

Archontophoenix alexandrae

A. purpurea

Plectocomia elongata

Pritchardia minor

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peachy

I can identify with that Michael. People think because I live in the western suburbs of Brisbane that I have a balmy climate all year. They are always gobsmacked when I tell them actually how cold some winter nights here can get.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas

Well at least we don't have to worry about that for another 6 months... now we have to worry about the problems summer brings.

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Alberto
I will look carfully at the geography of the land before buying a new property in the future to make sure cold air does not pool and cause frost. It has taught me a lot this year however, and thats what life is all about.

If I had had known about the importance of geography in forming microclimates.preventing frost/freezes.......I don´t know,but I think I hadn´t bought my property :blink::huh:

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Caryota_gigas

Well... maybe I shouldn't talk too soon... but only 3 frosts thus far this year, and all pretty mild. Which is in great contrast to the disastrous 17 frosts I had last year.

No loses this winter (not from frost anyway).

It seems Australia got all the cold this year for a change.

Summer is creeping around the corner...

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peachy

Michael I did a bit of planting based on your experiences last year. Can't give an opinion however as we didnt frost at all this year. Got cold earlier this year than normal so its been a long winter and some of the cold winds knocked off a few tropical things but otherwise I have survived unscathed. That having been said there are still 2 weeks left before the danger has passed for the year.

Peachy

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Mike in Nelson

Same here Michael. Very mild winter and hardly any frosts. There were many plants that kept growing all winter which would normally be dormant.

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Alberto

Well... maybe I shouldn't talk too soon... but only 3 frosts thus far this year, and all pretty mild. Which is in great contrast to the disastrous 17 frosts I had last year.

No loses this winter (not from frost anyway).

It seems Australia got all the cold this year for a change.

Summer is creeping around the corner...

Until today not one frost in Carambeí.!!! But like Peachy said, two weeks more to go...(and....sometimes it can freeze in september...:blink:) Last few days there were lots of counties with frost here in Paraná State.Yesterday morning it was -5.6°C in Guarapuava and even -2.6°C in a warm county in the West of Paraná called ,Cascavel near the Iguaçú Falls.

I´m lucky because every night last week ( only in south -central Paraná),after 12:00 h - 1:00 h am when the sky is totally cloudless with that cold breeze from south, suddenly the wind changes and a thick cloud cover comes from East with the `Sea Wind´´ preventing formation of frost. Yesterday the coldest was 1.5°C and today 1°C but without frost!!:rolleyes:

Satelite image showing North of Uruguay,the Sates od Rio Grande do Sul,Santa Catarina and Paraná and south of São Paulo.

Paraná and Santa Catarina showing thick cloud cover.

post-465-12819800927325_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

Wow, still pretty cold your way Alberto. Our lows for the next 10 days are forecast mostly at 10°C, and highs between 15° and 18°.

We had frosts last year in September too, but this year I'm feeling lucky. (Big mistake probably)

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Jonathan

Well... maybe I shouldn't talk too soon... but only 3 frosts thus far this year, and all pretty mild. Which is in great contrast to the disastrous 17 frosts I had last year.

No loses this winter (not from frost anyway).

It seems Australia got all the cold this year for a change.

Summer is creeping around the corner...

You got that right Michael - I've had 16 frosts this winter, as opposed to about 2 last year....the days have been above average, nights below average.

The weather has been crazy, after almost no rain for 7 months we got 50mm in 24 hours last week....then it was 18C on Sunday then 9C on Monday with snow to 400m...today its somewhere in the middle!

Spring can't come early enough for me this year.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Alberto

But the winners in my opinion...

Beccariophoenix

I am surprised... though very pleasantly.

When Beccariophoenix was first on the scene here I ignored it thinking they would maybe grow in warm micro-climates in NZ, but would never look good... and I stand by that thought to an extent... but all Beccariophoenix are not created equal.

The 2 species / varieties I trialed for frost tolerance this year were B. alfredii, and what was sold through RPS as Beccariophoenix (Southern form), which has the exact definition on RPS as B. madagascariensis.

I have found B. alfredii to be a quick grower and last year several seedlings got frosted by accident. I shifted most into the GH after that but left some out in the open to see how they would cope with more frost. We only had 4 frosts last year, and the B. alfredii's did fine, so I planted a couple of these small seedlings as they also seemed to cope fine with strong sun.

This year I have inflicted 6 frosts on one of the plants that was frosted last year... and once again... no damage!

This is a palm I will be utilising much more in the future.

The B. sp. "Southern form" which some say is the "true" B. madagascariensis is another winner. It appears to have no windows and is a bit slower than B. alfredii... but when it comes to frost / cold tolerance it seemed to do as well as B. alfredii..............

................................

Hi Michel,

Thanks again for your frost experiment from two years ago.:rolleyes:

How your palms went trough last two winters.

I was dissapointed with my B.alfrediis. Normally I cover all the young palms in frosty nights,but this year the night was cloudy and meterology said frost would occur only the other following morning,so I didn´t cover all my palms,and B.alfredii growing in the open on the lowest part of my property ,were totally defoliated .The two ,on others on a little higher ground with some canopy are fine. The air temperature at 1.5 to 2m altitude was 3°C and I put the termometer at ground level,the lowest part of property. After 5 minutes it shew -4.2°C (maybe in reality it was close to -5.0°C), when it stopped to work because of low battery and cold I supose.

BTW My Pritchardia minor seedlings were ok below canopy.

The result was this:

http://www.palmtalk....showtopic=29479

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Jonathan

Alberto,

How does B. alfredii compare to Parajubaea cocoides with frost hardiness at your place?

My cocoides have been burned (again) by a monster frost that went down to about -3C I think, the worst I've ever seen here.

P. tor tor is ok, although one smaller one is slightly burnt.

I'm trying to work out where to put some B. alfredii's, sounds like they might require canopy here.

In which case they can wait till they get a bit bigger!

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Jonathan

Michael - how has your winter been?

We've had everything so far - hard frost, high rainfall, warm days, cold days, 120km winds...a nightmare for palm growing really.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Mike in Nelson

Well I've had a bit of cold damage here in Nelson. One night got down to 0.4c which is by far the coldest I've experienced while living here. Ensete, Agave and Colocasia showing signs of cold burn. Most of the palms ok though apart from Dypsis lutescens which is a little burnt at the tips but healthy all the same.

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Alberto

Alberto,

How does B. alfredii compare to Parajubaea cocoides with frost hardiness at your place?

My cocoides have been burned (again) by a monster frost that went down to about -3C I think, the worst I've ever seen here.

P. tor tor is ok, although one smaller one is slightly burnt.

I'm trying to work out where to put some B. alfredii's, sounds like they might require canopy here.

In which case they can wait till they get a bit bigger!

Cheers,

Jonathan

I have 4 big P.sunkha and one exposed little seedling that are fine. my P.tor tors that speerpulled two years earlier ,were carefully protected last winter ,are now much bigger and they show only some damage on some horizontal fronds but they are okay.I don´t have any P.cocoides growing here,only the ButiaXParajubaea cocoides are fine.

I can see mature palms has lot more resistance against frost then younger plants.I hope that some of the B.alfrediis will survive and get hardier with age....

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richnorm

Michael - how has your winter been?

We've had everything so far - hard frost, high rainfall, warm days, cold days, 120km winds...a nightmare for palm growing really.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Winter has been mild, until now! This from the local the local rag about sums it up:

"WeatherWatch.co.nz says their latest forecast for Auckland is extremely rare as an Antarctic blast moves up the country.

Snow showers are expected down to 200 metres (100 metres lower than July's snow event - which was also extremely rare).

This would see snow falling and possibly settling on the tops of the Waitakere and Hunua ranges. WeatherWatch.co.nz says the city should reach 10 degrees C on Monday and possibly only 9 on Tuesday. Auckland's lowest maximum ever recorded is 7.8 degrees"

Fortunately we shouldn't see anything sub-zero.

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Jonathan

Michael - how has your winter been?

We've had everything so far - hard frost, high rainfall, warm days, cold days, 120km winds...a nightmare for palm growing really.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Winter has been mild, until now! This from the local the local rag about sums it up:

"WeatherWatch.co.nz says their latest forecast for Auckland is extremely rare as an Antarctic blast moves up the country.

Snow showers are expected down to 200 metres (100 metres lower than July's snow event - which was also extremely rare).

This would see snow falling and possibly settling on the tops of the Waitakere and Hunua ranges. WeatherWatch.co.nz says the city should reach 10 degrees C on Monday and possibly only 9 on Tuesday. Auckland's lowest maximum ever recorded is 7.8 degrees"

Fortunately we shouldn't see anything sub-zero.

Good luck Richard! Sounds all too familiar...

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Jonathan

I can see mature palms has lot more resistance against frost then younger plants.I hope that some of the B.alfrediis will survive and get hardier with age....

Yes - that seems to be the big lesson that I keep failing to learn!

We had a frost a few weeks ago that toasted most of my P. cocoides, though they should pull through ok, and even bronzed a couple of small (three leaf) tor tors. But my bigger torallyi (just going pinnate) was completely untouched.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas

First of all I can't believe this thread is still going... and has over 10,000 views.

I have not been on Palm talk for quite a few months now, then a few days back I get an email saying this thread has been brought back to life.

Right, this Winter... well up until yesterday it was one of the warmest winters we had ever had... then the snow came.

There is going to be a lot of sorry looking palms in NZ by the end of the week. For those not in NZ, we are currently having the worst snow storm in 50 years with snow in places... it just ain't meant to snow. It snowed in Auckland yesterday for the first time in 80 years! I have just covered up some palms for the first time this winter... I thought this year was gonna be a good one...

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Mike in Nelson

I had a negative temp of -0.2c this morning. I've never recorded a sub zero here before. The winter of extremes.....

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Caryota_gigas

Right now (10pm) it is 0.2°C at 1 metre above our deck.

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Caryota_gigas

Its going to be a bad one tonight...

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Alberto

I hate this frosty nights.......>:rage:

I hope the best for you all!

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Nigel

I hate this frosty nights.......>:rage:

I hope the best for you all!

Alberto,they are saying it will be 0C here at the weekend, it is 23C as I type this.

Big cold air blast coming from argentina.

If it really is 0C here which I dont believe I imagine it will be a lot colder for you.

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Caryota_gigas

-2.0°C here right now (7:30am).

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richnorm

Got down to just below 5c here a couple of clicks away from Michael. Amazing what difference a bit of elevation and slope makes. I fear worse is to come with clear skies and little wind.

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Bennz

Here's part of my place yesterday. The snow this time reached lower altitude than the last decent fall in 1914. And it hasn't got above 7C for three days straight, about 10C lower than average august daytime high.

On the bright side, the lowest temp we reached was 1C, so not actually any real damage done.

P1000165.jpg

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Alberto

Ben, that looks cold!!!!!!! Brrrrr!!!!!!!

Here the ipê-amarelo are beginning to flower (clear sign of spring), and I want not to think about more freezes. I hope you´re wrong, Nigel.......:)

http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&gs_upl=889l889l0l4153l1l1l0l0l0l0l246l246l2-1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=629&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&q=ip%C3%AA-amarelo

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Caryota_gigas

Theres snow on them there hills, hope all the palms are tucked up nice and warm Ben :huh:

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Caryota_gigas

The -2.0°C at my place wasn't actually at 7:30am, turns out the thermometer was on the "min" setting, so the minus 2 was probaly about 2 hours earlier. That thermometer was also in a cold spot next to a Cussonia on the corner of my deck (around 5 feet above ground), the one under cover on the deck unfortunately died of cold in the night, so I am unsure of that reading.

Hopefully a fraction warmer tonight.

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Caryota_gigas

Ben, you may have to change your signature to read - "No Frost, No Heat, Occasional Snow"

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Tassie_Troy1971

Micheal it's a balmy 14c here @ Old beach at 753pm :rolleyes:

Can't get over the snowfall Ben !

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Mike in Nelson

That's a great pic there Ben. There's a big fat High nudging it's way over the country which means some frosty nights ahead. Looking forward to some spring growth!

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BS Man about Palms

Fare thee well.......

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Caryota_gigas

Only got down to 0.1°C last night. 4.0°C at 8am, still frosty, looks like a nice day ahead.

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Bennz

Ben, you may have to change your signature to read - "No Frost, No Heat, Occasional Snow"

True enough, but including the biggest snowfall event in a century in my signature may be overstating the event a little. With a low of 1C it would actually appear unlikely to have caused any real damage. Parajubaea sunkha must have had a good 30-50mm of snow cover, and are unharmed. The only other palms in the snow area were under other trees, and the snow did not penetrate into the tree cover.

I dug a hole last month. 4m deep, about 5mx5m diameter. All the way down all I was digging was sandy-loam textured tephra. I didn't hit the 'true' soil type at all. Obviously there have been some rather unfortunate geographical events here in the past... Mt. Lake Taupo springs to mind. Perhaps I should amend my signature to;

"No Frost, No Heat, Occaisonal Snow, Occaisonal catastrophic Volcanic Tephra Overlay" :)

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Tyrone

I like that signature Ben. Unbelievable snow situation in NZ. I'm glad we missed this Antarctic blast. All the best over there.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Cikas

Great stuff here.

Very informative topic. :greenthumb:

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