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Frost experiments from down under

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peachy

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A ways back in this thread there was mention of darker green spots on cold affected leaves; as a plant biochemist by profession I have always been mystified that in freezing temps, some palms will get these dark green, somewhat transluscent spots that look for sure like cold damage. But they then disappear when the air warms, leaving no residual damage! I'd really like to hear an explanation of this phenomenon. It occurred mostly on Archontophoenix and Howea palms in northern California on a frosty morning while I was gardening a lot there..

This is a very interesting phenomenon indeed.

I have noticed though that when they are just dark green they are often alright, this usually occurs on leaflets that are much tougher than many. And if they go translucent dark green, its curtains for that leaflet.

As for it occuring on Archontophoenix, I find here that any frost damages Archonotphoenix quite badly. My A.alexandrae and A. purpurea never mark up dark green then recover. They usually are brwon within a few hours of the frost... hence why they are coming out this year, they are just not worth it at my location.

Cheers,

Michael.

In memorium to all the brave palms who sacrificed their lives to save others during this frigid crisis and following experimental period, I bought a C. Gigas this morning to commemurate these little green heroes.

Peachy :violin:

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Caryota_gigas

I was thinking of planting a load of C. gigas (now actually C. obtusa) to use as frost protection seeing as they grow so big, so fast and have huge leaves that can hang over and protect other palms. Not that I wish to sacrifice C. obtusa, as it is my favourite palm.

No frost here for a while now, though 2 nights ago I was out covering up plants at 3am.

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DoomsDave

I went and, er, gave sacred water to my C. gigas . . . .

Gadzooks, the freezes, when will they end? Sad to hear . . .

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DoomsDave
Which is more than I can say for this C. macrocarpa, which marked up like this a few weeks ago in our first frosts, as it does each year... but normally it clears up... but this year the sections of leaf that are dark green in the pic, are now brown.

post-636-1246350539_thumb.jpg

Oh, geeze, it's burnt, mate, will recover, so slow . . . .

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Alberto
Gadzooks, the freezes, when will they end?

Bad news,Dave...here they will generally end..........when yours begin!!! :blink::unsure::winkie:

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Caryota_gigas

Frost # 9 today.

As an update on the frost experiments undertaken earlier in this thread, most seem to have handled it very well.

The only seedlings to be showing large damage is D. oropedionis and Areca triandra.

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Jonathan

Ouch!

Thats 6 more than me.....mind you our last one this week was a cracker, frozen puddles and all!

The good news is that the frost here is gone by 9am and the day is then sunny and clear, so the plants get warmed up quickly.

The bad news is that we get frost.....

How is your D. oropedionis in the ground - is it still looking good?

Also Michael, can you grow D. decaryi at your place, and if so, has it seen frost?

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas
Ouch!

Thats 6 more than me.....mind you our last one this week was a cracker, frozen puddles and all!

The good news is that the frost here is gone by 9am and the day is then sunny and clear, so the plants get warmed up quickly.

The bad news is that we get frost.....

How is your D. oropedionis in the ground - is it still looking good?

Also Michael, can you grow D. decaryi at your place, and if so, has it seen frost?

Cheers,

Jonathan

Its always sunny here too after frost, but the house shades the back garden for a long time.

D.oro is doing fine, had an umbrella over him the whole time though.

I have a D. decaryi out front, but to be honest I have paid very little attention to it as they are so damn slow in ground here. I had another fairly large one that got badly damaged by frost, and was so slow that I ripped it out. They are a waste of time at my place, and most places in NZ, though there are a couple of OK ones around.

Tonights weather looks like fun. Now that the plants are all weak from frost, tonight the forcast is for winds up to 140kph.

And Easterlies too which the palms at my place are not used to. Easterlies make them tip as they are so used to pushing towards the West. And 150mm of rain forecast to boot.

Dont you just love Winter...

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Jonathan
Ouch!

Thats 6 more than me.....mind you our last one this week was a cracker, frozen puddles and all!

The good news is that the frost here is gone by 9am and the day is then sunny and clear, so the plants get warmed up quickly.

The bad news is that we get frost.....

How is your D. oropedionis in the ground - is it still looking good?

Also Michael, can you grow D. decaryi at your place, and if so, has it seen frost?

Cheers,

Jonathan

Its always sunny here too after frost, but the house shades the back garden for a long time.

D.oro is doing fine, had an umbrella over him the whole time though.

I have a D. decaryi out front, but to be honest I have paid very little attention to it as they are so damn slow in ground here. I had another fairly large one that got badly damaged by frost, and was so slow that I ripped it out. They are a waste of time at my place, and most places in NZ, though there are a couple of OK ones around.

Tonights weather looks like fun. Now that the plants are all weak from frost, tonight the forcast is for winds up to 140kph.

And Easterlies too which the palms at my place are not used to. Easterlies make them tip as they are so used to pushing towards the West. And 150mm of rain forecast to boot.

Dont you just love Winter...

Are you sure you don't live in Tasmania? Thats our winter you're describing - although the last few years until this winter have been dry, dry, dry.

Continuous SW flow normally, but this year wet (very wet) easterlies...you cant pick it!

Still, I'm making hay, so to speak and planting canopy stuff out (other than palms - they can wait for warm soil) while its wet.

Planted today 2 big Bunya pines, 2 Moreton Bay figs and a Port Jackson fig in a nice frosty area...bring it on - have sand, will fly in the face of logic....

will probably regret it!

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas

As for the "always Sunny and clear after frost" comment... not today. 9am and its only 3°C here, after frost and temps down to -1.4°C and has now clouded over and is going to rain. Going to be a very cold day.

Here is a pic of another experiment I ran overnight. Just Beccariophoenix again. I put 2 seedlings which have already seen at least 2 frosts each out on a cold frosty table overnight. The blurry (sorry my partner has the good camera with her, plus I was probably shivering a lot) pic is of B. mad. southern form.

post-636-1247515797_thumb.jpg

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Tyrone

We're watching in anticipation.

You're getting some serious cold there. Neg 1.4C, then cloud then rain. What's that all about then. :(

We had our coldest morning this year at 1.5C this morning. The new house insulation worked a treat, and I didn't barely feel it. Walk out the back door and whoaaah. Luckily no frost anywhere. Going for 17C today then 20 tomorrow.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Jonathan

I'm amazed by how harsh your winter is Michael - but this is an unusually cold year for you, I assume?

I'd be really interested to see a full list of what you're growing at some stage and how they perform long term.

Tyrone.....speak not of winter to those who fear its icy grip.....

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas

Yeah its been a pretty lousy Winter here. We have had the coldest May for ages and 2nd coldest June. Im picking July will be the coldest in (possibly) a few decades. 10 frosts is the most we have ever had at our place, and those first few that were around the -3.5°C mark were just killers. Never had frosts as bad as those before, and hopefully, never again.

Today has been so cold (for here). It was 3°C when I left home this morning at 9:30 and now at 3pm it is 11° and will not get any warmer. A high of only 11°C in Auckland is about as cold as it gets, and it feels a lot colder than that right now.

When I got out of the spa last night at 10pm it was 1°C on our deck.

Spring, where art thou...

Jonathan,

I will send you a list of what I have in-ground as I did a "stocktake" a couple of days ago... might take me a while to enter it all into the comp though.

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richnorm
Yeah its been a pretty lousy Winter here. We have had the coldest May for ages and 2nd coldest June. Im picking July will be the coldest in (possibly) a few decades. 10 frosts is the most we have ever had at our place, and those first few that were around the -3.5°C mark were just killers. Never had frosts as bad as those before, and hopefully, never again.

Today has been so cold (for here). It was 3°C when I left home this morning at 9:30 and now at 3pm it is 11° and will not get any warmer. A high of only 11°C in Auckland is about as cold as it gets, and it feels a lot colder than that right now.

When I got out of the spa last night at 10pm it was 1°C on our deck.

Spring, where art thou...

Jonathan,

I will send you a list of what I have in-ground as I did a "stocktake" a couple of days ago... might take me a while to enter it all into the comp though.

As soon as it got dark the temperature started to rise here! It's now 15c and windy. A mutual friend of ours who found palms in his 70's recently commented to me that this is the coldest (in terms of severity of frosts) winter he could remember. It's good to see what it's like at the worst.

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Caryota_gigas

This morning is 13°C warmer than yesterday... crazy.

It was the same temp here at 7am today as it was at 3pm yesterday.

Both Beccariophoenix that were frosted yesterday look fine. Great palms... Goodbye Archontophoenix's...

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peachy

Its more like typical spring weather instead of winter .... yesterday's max was 27 and the min was 3 !!!! Supposed to be 7 overnight but I had accidentally switched off the heating when I went to bed instead of setting it for 19. Woke this morning at 6am and I was freezing. Probably be back in my gardening shorts by mid morning though

Peachy

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Palmə häl′ik

It looks cold!

Prolly cuz it is cold!

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Tyrone
Its more like typical spring weather instead of winter .... yesterday's max was 27 and the min was 3 !!!! Supposed to be 7 overnight but I had accidentally switched off the heating when I went to bed instead of setting it for 19. Woke this morning at 6am and I was freezing. Probably be back in my gardening shorts by mid morning though

Peachy

I think SE QLD will be slowly edging out of winter now. Down here at 32S we follow about 4 to 6 weeks after you. We're currently in our coldest period and won't see the temp move in an upward average direction until July 30th according to the stats. Even then it will take all of August to move up 1C more day and night. August is a slow month. It seems to take forever as you wish winter away and spring to come in.

Enjoy your warm days Peachy. :)

Michael, B alfredii is a real winner in my opinion. You'll have "coconuts" in NZ in no time. :)

Best regards

Tyrone

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peachy

No wonder I was so cold this morning. Our predicted minimum of 7 plummeted to a perfect 0 !! Tyrone, July is usually the coldest month and it aint over yet. On a note of interest, after reading conflicting reports about the cold hardiness of Adonidia Merrillii (some say it is others say its not) I planted one about 3 weeks ago to find out once and for all who was right. It came through with flying colours, not a mark or blemish.

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Tyrone

Peachy, I think A merillii is cold tolerant IF day time temps get to 20C and above consistently. Over here they die, even though I never get as cold as you. :(

Do you have Areca catechu?

Best regards

Tyrone

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Caryota_gigas
Peachy, I think A merillii is cold tolerant IF day time temps get to 20C and above consistently. Over here they die, even though I never get as cold as you. :(

Do you have Areca catechu?

Best regards

Tyrone

We can but dream of growing palms like that here... Bring on Global Warming...

Next frost I am going to do an experiment with a bigger D. ambositrae to see how it goes... stay tuned...

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peachy
Peachy, I think A merillii is cold tolerant IF day time temps get to 20C and above consistently. Over here they die, even though I never get as cold as you. :(

Do you have Areca catechu?

Best regards

Tyrone

Yes I have one. It's half buried by Brazilian red cloak bush, but goes thru winters without a mark. It is however a bit slower growing than I had anticipated.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas

Havent had any frost down here for a while (YAY!), just a ton of rain instead!

But looks like tonight will be the dreaded return of Jack Frost.

So here is tonights brave soldier.

I want to test D. ambositrae more and so found one outside that was a little tatty looking for tonights frost experiment.

It is used to being out in the cold, but this will be its first frost.

post-636-1248475872_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

It is pretty cold this morning...

post-636-1248554656_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

-2.3°C (27.8°F) on the table with the D. ambositrae. Leaflets stiff with ice... how do you think it will cope???

post-636-1248559349_thumb.jpg

Themometer

post-636-1248559428_thumb.jpg

This disc of ice came from the saucer on the table at 10am! It is approx 4-5mm thick.

post-636-1248559830_thumb.jpg

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richnorm
-2.3°C (27.8°F) on the table with the D. ambositrae. Leaflets stiff with ice... how do you think it will cope???

My guess would be for total defoliation and a 50/50 chance of a spear pull in a few weeks! I think they are on a par with baronii, perhaps a tad tougher but not much.

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Caryota_gigas

Yeah thats roughly what I am thinking at the moment too.

2 D. baronii's that got damaged a couple of weeks ago have pulled spears.

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Tassie_Troy1971
-2.3°C (27.8°F) on the table with the D. ambositrae. Leaflets stiff with ice... how do you think it will cope???

post-636-1248559349_thumb.jpg

Themometer

post-636-1248559428_thumb.jpg

This disc of ice came from the saucer on the table at 10am! It is approx 4-5mm thick.

post-636-1248559830_thumb.jpg

Hi Michael

Can't believe how cold its been over there so far north ,very interesting account of hardiness . Judging from your hedyscepe being unscathed i shouldnt have any problems in my winters .Where i live we havent been below 0 c Hobarts record low is -2.8 c and that was in 1972.

Any leaf burn on rhopalostylis sapida or baeuri . ?

cheers Troy

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Caryota_gigas

The sapidas I have are fine, but a Kermadec (R.baueri) is burnt real bad.

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Tyrone

You guys are getting real cold.

And your experiments are hard core....

I'm taking a punt that your ambositrae will be OK. It'll spot up, but I'm thinking no spear pull. Let us know how it goes.

D decipiens is meant to handle those sort of lows unscathed.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Jonathan
The sapidas I have are fine, but a Kermadec (R.baueri) is burnt real bad.

I assume Michael that the baueri you mentioned is in the open and getting frost directly on the leaves, and that the same plant under canopy would come through unscathed?

I put two thermometers out on a frosty night last week (our 5th for the year), one in a sunny low part of the property where cold air sits dammed up behind some trees, and one under Eucalypt canopy about 3 metres higher up the hill.

The open ground temperature was close to 0ºC, canopy temp was 4ºC.

The dilema is of course that the daytime temperature is up to 10ºC warmer in the sun at the moment, so the shady area isn't neccesarily the obvious choice for a lot of species...hmmm. Shade often = slow growth, but frost often = no growth, cant win really.

Bloody winter,

Jonathan

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Bennz

Michael, this is weird weather alright. How can it be so cold for you? Here I am several hundred kms worth of latitude south of you, and hasn't been below 5C at night for 2 weeks. Hasn't been warm either (well, one day hit 20C about 2 weeks ago, but didn't last long).

Hope that ambositrae survives!

Trouble about comparing your results to any likely chances here is just not relevant I guess, due to our radically different summer weather.

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Caryota_gigas

Well after the frost had melted away, the D.ambo didn't look good... Dark translucent green leaflets, which are so often followed by browning off over the next day or 2... but... later that day the palm looked fine, and today, no obvious signs of damage.

Hoefully I can still say this after another couple of days...

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Caryota_gigas
The sapidas I have are fine, but a Kermadec (R.baueri) is burnt real bad.

I assume Michael that the baueri you mentioned is in the open and getting frost directly on the leaves, and that the same plant under canopy would come through unscathed?

Jonathan

You are correct.

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Caryota_gigas
Michael, this is weird weather alright. How can it be so cold for you? Here I am several hundred kms worth of latitude south of you, and hasn't been below 5C at night for 2 weeks. Hasn't been warm either (well, one day hit 20C about 2 weeks ago, but didn't last long).

Hope that ambositrae survives!

Trouble about comparing your results to any likely chances here is just not relevant I guess, due to our radically different summer weather.

The last 2 nights it has even been warmer in Dunedin than here... that should be illegal!

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Caryota_gigas

Last night I put out a few more plants to slaughter.

Didn't have much of a frost though. But tonight the low is predicted at -2°C (28.4°F), which means more like -5°C (23°F) at my place. That is going to hurt. Lowest temp I can ever recall in Auckland! Lowest (official) recorded temp I can find is -0.6°C. I dont think I will put much through that, maybe a B. alfredii.

I might not be collecting palms after tomorrow...

post-636-1248651192_thumb.jpg

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Jonathan
Last night I put out a few more plants to slaughter.

Didn't have much of a frost though. But tonight the low is predicted at -2°C (28.4°F), which means more like -5°C (23°F) at my place. That is going to hurt. Lowest temp I can ever recall in Auckland! Lowest (official) recorded temp I can find is -0.6°C. I dont think I will put much through that, maybe a B. alfredii.

I might not be collecting palms after tomorrow...

Whatcha got there for tonights entertainment?

You should move somewhere warm, like Tasmania!

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Tyrone

Michael, the low temps your talking about are really scary. Are you sure you want to put your collection through the experience and not try them on a warmer frosty night instead?

I had a feeling your D ambositrae would make it. It must come from the mountains of Madagascar to perform the way you have described it.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Caryota_gigas

Tonights test will be what survives in-ground!!!

I have decided against my other test... even Im not that mean (or stupid).

I may just put out a B. alfredii that has withstood a fair amount of abuse already.

I am about to do a video of my garden as it looks so ridiculous with all the tarps, blankets, polystyrene, umbrellas, etc. over everything. I cant cover my beloved Caryotas though, and I fear tomorrow they may be toast.

So where is global warming again...???

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Tyrone

My thoughts are with you.

Best regards

Tyrone

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