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Caryota_gigas

Frost experiments from down under

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Jonathan
You know where to get parajubaeas ??? Spill !!!! I saw a cocoides in Sydney 20 years ago and have been trying to find one ever since with absolutely no success. Those people who do have them treat their sources as a national secret it seems. Any info you can give me about sourcing a cocoides or a torellyii (I think thats how its spelt) would be very gratefully received..

Peachy

Hi Peachy, you've got to come to Tassie to get Parajubaeas!

Seriously though, I was very lucky to find a guy down here (via local Palmtalk regulars Troy and Sol) who happened to have grown all species except sunkha (I think) from seed a few years ago. Luckily for me he was keen to swap his leftover Para's for some clumping bamboo species I had propagated....sometimes things just work out.

I've got some P. tor. tor. and P. cocoides seeds in at the moment (some just germinated) and some germinating Phoenix louerii, so I might be able to help you out with some small plants in the near future, if it helps at all.

Sorry to hijack your thread Michael - that frost is unbelievable - our winter has been the picture of health comparably, wet, mild and frostless - so far! There seems to have been an enormous low sitting over Auckland for a while now....

Cheers,

Jonathan

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AJQ

Michael, what was the lowest temps that your Jubaeopsis caffra saw? How many and for how long?

Regards Andy.

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Caryota_gigas
Michael, what was the lowest temps that your Jubaeopsis caffra saw? How many and for how long?

Regards Andy.

Hi Andy,

The plant I subjected to frost was only on one night. Temp hovered at around -1.5°C (29°F) for about 4 hours. So wasnt exposed to as much cold as those listed in this topic.

Would probably have taken another degree lower without problems. The plant in question was a small 3-4 strap seedling.

It still looks fine.

I think it is worth a shot at your place, especially if you had some overhead protection for it.

Cheers,

Michael.

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Caryota_gigas

I should also add that this plant had never put its head outside until this test, so it would have been an extra shock coming from the Greenhouse straight into frost... Im so mean.

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Bennz
Hi Ben,

Yeah its pretty low at our place, at the bottom of a getle slope with a creek nearby. Gets damn hot in Summer.

I am thinking seriously about hardy palms for the first time. I will be ripping out my Archontophoenix alexandrae and A. purpurea, both over 8 feet tall, as they just get completely buggered by the frost each year. I will most likely be replacing them with 2 Beccariophoenix.

My in-ground C. quindiuense has a small amount of damage on the flatest surfaces.

All my Pritchardia seddlings, in my unheated GH, are fine.

Michael.

Hey Michael,

I volunteer to come and remove that purpurea for you!

Cheers,

Ben

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Patrick

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the great experiment you are running, it's very helpful for everyone following along.

First, sorry about your bout of cold, I'm sure you know that everyone hates those no matter where you are on the planet! ;)

The next thing I was wondering was if your winters are wet or dry? I'm assuming since you're in NZ that it's pretty wet. I find this thread particularly interesting because my winters are cold- almost the same low temps you are experiencing now- and wet as well. This data is extremely useful to me!

Thank you.

The last thing I wanted to say is that I noticed that you put out a small J. caffra. Be cautious with this one in the wet if you want to keep it around, since it's so small. One of mine that was about the same size and went through cold- 25F- bit the dust about a month later due to fungus. The spear pulled. I attribute the loss to the moisture. I'm sure you're on top of things, but I just wanted to give you a heads up.

Judging by some of your palms I'm guessing you have a high humidity in the summer as well? Must be nice. Don't worry about that banana- it will come back with a vengeance once it heats up again!

Good luck!

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Caryota_gigas
Hey Michael,

I volunteer to come and remove that purpurea for you!

Cheers,

Ben

I might take you up on that if I cant be bothered to dig it myself :winkie:

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Caryota_gigas
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the great experiment you are running, it's very helpful for everyone following along.

First, sorry about your bout of cold, I'm sure you know that everyone hates those no matter where you are on the planet! ;)

The next thing I was wondering was if your winters are wet or dry? I'm assuming since you're in NZ that it's pretty wet. I find this thread particularly interesting because my winters are cold- almost the same low temps you are experiencing now- and wet as well. This data is extremely useful to me!

Thank you.

The last thing I wanted to say is that I noticed that you put out a small J. caffra. Be cautious with this one in the wet if you want to keep it around, since it's so small. One of mine that was about the same size and went through cold- 25F- bit the dust about a month later due to fungus. The spear pulled. I attribute the loss to the moisture. I'm sure you're on top of things, but I just wanted to give you a heads up.

Judging by some of your palms I'm guessing you have a high humidity in the summer as well? Must be nice. Don't worry about that banana- it will come back with a vengeance once it heats up again!

Good luck!

Hi Patrick,

Wet, wet, wet.

I has been pretty dry for the last couple of weeks, but last nigh we had a good thunderstorm and it has been raining pretty constantly for the past 48 hours.

The J. caffra was only put outside in the frost for the night and is ussually in the GH so doesn't get all the rain. I have a few of these as back-ups. I would never plant one at my place anyway due to its size and my shrinking amount of planting space.

Very high humidity in Auckland all year round. Being an Isthmus makes this a very sticky place in Summer. Right now it is 10.6°C (51°F) and 95% humidity. The hottest day here this year, taken from a nearby weather station was 33.0°C (91°F) with 95% humidty also. Hottest day of the year and our garden looked misty! Aucklands a funny place. And what happened to global warming. May was the coldest since at least 2002 (that particular website/weather station didnt go back past then).

I know the bananas will come back... but its a depressing, messy sight seeing them every time I open the front door.

Cheers,

Michael.

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Tyrone

Michael, have you tried a Shambositrae in the freezer? My thoughts are that if it's really D ambositrae it will not batter an eyelid. Don't try it unless you have heaps of them. I wouldn't want to be responsible for your only one being sacrificed for science.

Best regards

Tyrone

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peachy
(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

In that pic, C. obtusa, C. urens, C. ochlandra, C. sp. 'mystery'. All have been hit worse than ever before, especially the C. obtusa which normally copes very well. I also have other C. ochlandra, C. sp 'mystery', C. mitis, C. monostachya and C. sp. 'solitaire' which have come through unscathed thus far, thoug all are under natural protection. My newly aquired C. sp. 'himalayana', (or C. maxima 'himalayana', or C. himalayana or whatever its currently known as) on the other hand...

post-636-1246179305_thumb.jpg

One of my sadest looking palms at the moment, even the trunk is changing colour, doesn't look good.

I thought that C. ochlandra were frost hardy bomb proof so I planted a few of them as future canopy frost protection. C. Urens get badly singed around here too. Its so annoying that only a couple of streets away from here are frost free and only a few klms closer to the city, one can grow almost any of the subtropical species. You surprised me by mentioning caryota species that I have never heard of before so I must investigate further. Apparently C. No does well here but what does one do with the body when they croak after flowering ? Being on a suburban house block I have to ration space and nuisance value to the neighbours. So far falling fronds still land in my place (on my car today too) (a roystonea frond at that) but do fronds from those giants fall straight down or can they travel laterally ? Just curious to know.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas
Michael, have you tried a Shambositrae in the freezer? My thoughts are that if it's really D ambositrae it will not batter an eyelid. Don't try it unless you have heaps of them. I wouldn't want to be responsible for your only one being sacrificed for science.

Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone,

The D. ambo I metioned earlier in this experiment was what many call the "real" ambo, but what is also called here "shambositrae, so yes I have. I will just go check to see how its looking today...

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Caryota_gigas

...looks fine, it marked up initially, but these seem to have faded. It has done much better than the D. oropedionis, which looks pretty sad.

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Caryota_gigas

To follow is some shots of a small in-ground D. ambo (shambo) or whatever it is...

post-636-1246311468_thumb.jpg

The 2 Archonto's in the shot are fried from the frost, but at least they gave some protection to the small D. ambo below the crude arrow.

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Caryota_gigas

post-636-1246311661_thumb.jpg

Some slight bronzing from frost.

post-636-1246311913_thumb.jpg

Stem, petioles

post-636-1246312064_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas
(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

In that pic, C. obtusa, C. urens, C. ochlandra, C. sp. 'mystery'. All have been hit worse than ever before, especially the C. obtusa which normally copes very well. I also have other C. ochlandra, C. sp 'mystery', C. mitis, C. monostachya and C. sp. 'solitaire' which have come through unscathed thus far, thoug all are under natural protection. My newly aquired C. sp. 'himalayana', (or C. maxima 'himalayana', or C. himalayana or whatever its currently known as) on the other hand...

post-636-1246179305_thumb.jpg

One of my sadest looking palms at the moment, even the trunk is changing colour, doesn't look good.

I thought that C. ochlandra were frost hardy bomb proof so I planted a few of them as future canopy frost protection. C. Urens get badly singed around here too. Its so annoying that only a couple of streets away from here are frost free and only a few klms closer to the city, one can grow almost any of the subtropical species. You surprised me by mentioning caryota species that I have never heard of before so I must investigate further. Apparently C. No does well here but what does one do with the body when they croak after flowering ? Being on a suburban house block I have to ration space and nuisance value to the neighbours. So far falling fronds still land in my place (on my car today too) (a roystonea frond at that) but do fronds from those giants fall straight down or can they travel laterally ? Just curious to know.

Peachy

C. ochlandras are pretty good, but will still mark in bad frosts, last year thes Caryotas were all more or less unharmed. I find the C. obtusa (C.gigas) usually marks the least, and holds damaged leaflets longer than other species.

C. no is too sensitive for here. When it dies, just grow a Plectocomia or Calamus up it. :D

Caryota fronds dont fall off that readily, they often stay attached and need quite a lot of brute strength to remove them, especially when it come to C. obtusa.

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Tyrone

Michael, your "shambositrae" has done fine, which in my mind proves it has some mountain origins happening there. It certainly doesn't disqualify itself from real ambo status yet IMO. D sp fineleaf would not have been so happy with the same ordeal.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Caryota_gigas

It certainly isnt the D. sp. fineleaf, I am certain of that.

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Caryota_gigas

More frost pics;

This Hedyscepe was marked up like this a week ago, but now seems to have cleared up.

post-636-1246350161_thumb.jpg

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Caryota_gigas

Which is more than I can say for this C. macrocarpa, which marked up like this a few weeks ago in our first frosts, as it does each year... but normally it clears up... but this year the sections of leaf that are dark green in the pic, are now brown.

post-636-1246350539_thumb.jpg

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peachy
It certainly isnt the D. sp. fineleaf, I am certain of that.

I am going to plant my dypsis ambositrae, its been pampered for too long and now I know it can take the treatment, its days of luxury are over.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas

Mine is still under some protetion from the plants around it remember, though not for long as those useless Aussie things ( :P) are coming out soon, then it will be more exposed.

I have another of similar size planted at my Mothers in an open exposed condition where overall temps are lower, its more windy, but does not get frost, and its doing fine.

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Tassie_Troy1971
More frost pics;

This Hedyscepe was marked up like this a week ago, but now seems to have cleared up.

post-636-1246350161_thumb.jpg

Hi Michael

so your hedyscepy took a -3 c frost eh tougher than i gave them credit for .

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Jonathan
post-636-1246311661_thumb.jpg

Some slight bronzing from frost.

post-636-1246311913_thumb.jpg

Stem, petioles

post-636-1246312064_thumb.jpg

That looks nothing like the fineleaf spp. from the other thread....and it must be pretty tough to survive that cold unmarked.

If that palm's not a highland species (Ambositrae or otherwise), I'll eat my foot.

Hope my three little ones are the same as yours, real or not, who cares?

So that Hedyscepe saw -3C? Hmmm...impressive - do you have a Lepidorrhachis as well?

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Caryota_gigas

I hope its D ambositrae too, as I have over 30 of them.

I have a Lepidorrhachis at my Mothers place, but that sees no frost, sorry. I have a couple of seedlings, but I dont wish to do experiments on those just yet.

That Hedyscepe has been burnt from the sun before, but never frost.

Cheers,

Michael.

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DoomsDave
(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

In that pic, C. obtusa, C. urens, C. ochlandra, C. sp. 'mystery'. All have been hit worse than ever before, especially the C. obtusa which normally copes very well. I also have other C. ochlandra, C. sp 'mystery', C. mitis, C. monostachya and C. sp. 'solitaire' which have come through unscathed thus far, thoug all are under natural protection. My newly aquired C. sp. 'himalayana', (or C. maxima 'himalayana', or C. himalayana or whatever its currently known as) on the other hand...

post-636-1246179305_thumb.jpg

One of my sadest looking palms at the moment, even the trunk is changing colour, doesn't look good.

I thought that C. ochlandra were frost hardy bomb proof so I planted a few of them as future canopy frost protection. C. Urens get badly singed around here too. Its so annoying that only a couple of streets away from here are frost free and only a few klms closer to the city, one can grow almost any of the subtropical species. You surprised me by mentioning caryota species that I have never heard of before so I must investigate further. Apparently C. No does well here but what does one do with the body when they croak after flowering ? Being on a suburban house block I have to ration space and nuisance value to the neighbours. So far falling fronds still land in my place (on my car today too) (a roystonea frond at that) but do fronds from those giants fall straight down or can they travel laterally ? Just curious to know.

Peachy

Hmm.

You're in an interesting area.

Hmm. C. no grows, but C. urens won't? THe opposite of our experience here.

As far as falling fronds, Roystonea fall straight down, since they're so heavy (60 pounds+ -- how many kils/stone is that?) unless you've got a typhoon.

As for removal of the dead, drag out the chainsaw and cut. And be prepared to sharpen the blades a lot. That wood's very hard . . . .

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Caryota_gigas

Set in damage, mostly on the newest leaf, after frost, of C. macrocarpa, as above.

post-636-1246479512_thumb.jpg

Here is a shot of the plant with a Ravenea glauca right next to it. The R. glauca has shown no damage, which is more than can be said of my R. rivularis...

post-636-1246479790_thumb.jpg

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BS Man about Palms

Keep posting Michael, we're watching...

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peachy
(BTW Michael,what Caryota species you have growing there? They look damaged the same as my C.himalayana)

In that pic, C. obtusa, C. urens, C. ochlandra, C. sp. 'mystery'. All have been hit worse than ever before, especially the C. obtusa which normally copes very well. I also have other C. ochlandra, C. sp 'mystery', C. mitis, C. monostachya and C. sp. 'solitaire' which have come through unscathed thus far, thoug all are under natural protection. My newly aquired C. sp. 'himalayana', (or C. maxima 'himalayana', or C. himalayana or whatever its currently known as) on the other hand...

post-636-1246179305_thumb.jpg

One of my sadest looking palms at the moment, even the trunk is changing colour, doesn't look good.

I thought that C. ochlandra were frost hardy bomb proof so I planted a few of them as future canopy frost protection. C. Urens get badly singed around here too. Its so annoying that only a couple of streets away from here are frost free and only a few klms closer to the city, one can grow almost any of the subtropical species. You surprised me by mentioning caryota species that I have never heard of before so I must investigate further. Apparently C. No does well here but what does one do with the body when they croak after flowering ? Being on a suburban house block I have to ration space and nuisance value to the neighbours. So far falling fronds still land in my place (on my car today too) (a roystonea frond at that) but do fronds from those giants fall straight down or can they travel laterally ? Just curious to know.

Peachy

Hmm.

You're in an interesting area.

Hmm. C. no grows, but C. urens won't? THe opposite of our experience here.

As far as falling fronds, Roystonea fall straight down, since they're so heavy (60 pounds+ -- how many kils/stone is that?) unless you've got a typhoon.

As for removal of the dead, drag out the chainsaw and cut. And be prepared to sharpen the blades a lot. That wood's very hard . . . .

Caryota urens grow perfectly here, its just when we get a 1 in 4 or 5 year frost they get burnt but live. There are some C. no around here and they dont seem to burn as badly. It could just be position but they seem less fried. I borrowed a chainsaw last year to attack my man-eating Phoenix reclinata and after 35 minutes got it to start but couldnt hold the bloody thing when it started to cut. Shook all my shivery bits and sent me flying. I know the Roystonea fronds weigh a ton, I have painfully dragged away many of them. Judging by the dent in the roof of poor little old Tojo's Revenge, I would estimate the weight at being about 15 kilos or so. Last of all, we have cyclones here, typhoons are in the Sth China Sea and around Sth East Asia above the equator.

Peachy

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peachy

:mellow:

Set in damage, mostly on the newest leaf, after frost, of C. macrocarpa, as above.

post-636-1246479512_thumb.jpg

Here is a shot of the plant with a Ravenea glauca right next to it. The R. glauca has shown no damage, which is more than can be said of my R. rivularis...

post-636-1246479790_thumb.jpg

Glad to learn that Ravenea Glauca is tough as I have just bought one !! :mellow: My R. rivularis have never burnt but they are quite well protected by big Queen palms. That poor C. macrocarpa looks well cooked, I hope it pulls thru for you.

Peachy

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Caryota_gigas

The C. macrocarpa should be fine. Just gonna look like rubbish until that leaf is gone... and in our climate, that will only take about 4 years.

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Caryota_gigas

Here you go BS Man...

Rhopalostylis bauerii "Raoul Island". This palm was covered as the frost damaged it last year, but still...

post-636-1246566317_thumb.jpg

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BS Man about Palms

Michael- glad you are keeping your spirits up. I will say we noticed that many times the Chambys didn't show their full damage for over a month or more...

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Caryota_gigas
Michael- glad you are keeping your spirits up. I will say we noticed that many times the Chambys didn't show their full damage for over a month or more...

Who said my spirits were up???

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BS Man about Palms
Michael- glad you are keeping your spirits up. I will say we noticed that many times the Chambys didn't show their full damage for over a month or more...

Who said my spirits were up???

Good point. Let us know if we need to post any pics of a warmer climate, or GROWING palms... :unsure:

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Caryota_gigas
Michael- glad you are keeping your spirits up. I will say we noticed that many times the Chambys didn't show their full damage for over a month or more...

Who said my spirits were up???

...That said I still have plenty of palms that have not been damaged by frost, ironically the most cold sensitive species are doing the best this Winter. Though it has to be said they have the most protection from the frost from other surrounding growth, etc.

I have the following which have not been damaged by the cold thus far:

2 D. lutescens

2 Areca triandra

1 Hyophorbe vershafeltii

1 Caryota mitis

1 Caryota monostachya

1 Geonoma brevispatha var. brevispatha

and many more, which many say, will not grow outside here, all undamaged by the cold, due to natural cover and roots that are not too wet.

Palms... you just never know...

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peachy
Michael- glad you are keeping your spirits up. I will say we noticed that many times the Chambys didn't show their full damage for over a month or more...

Who said my spirits were up???

...That said I still have plenty of palms that have not been damaged by frost, ironically the most cold sensitive species are doing the best this Winter. Though it has to be said they have the most protection from the frost from other surrounding growth, etc.

I have the following which have not been damaged by the cold thus far:

2 D. lutescens

2 Areca triandra

1 Hyophorbe vershafeltii

1 Caryota mitis

1 Caryota monostachya

1 Geonoma brevispatha var. brevispatha

and many more, which many say, will not grow outside here, all undamaged by the cold, due to natural cover and roots that are not too wet.

Palms... you just never know...

Michael I know how you are feeling. I woke one morning a couple of years ago and every tree shrub bush etc in the place was fried. I sat in the house in shock and it was 2 days before I could go outside and assess the carnage. Just finding one or 2 small unburnt things was like winning lotto and for several weeks nothing was watered, weeded or anything else. Eventually spring came, things came back, all the dead palm fronds were removed and a few months later one wouldnt know it had even seen a frost. BTW my D lutescens fried badly, likewise the C.mitis so as yours were unharmed one just never knows. The D.lutescens is in a very sheltered spot too. Little Rhopy baueri got through unscathed.

Chin up

Peachy

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richnorm

Michael,

Have you considered a sprinkler set-up like John Lok's? It needs to be done in the right way but can be really effective for the sorts of freezes that you experience (ie where the soil temperature remains well above freezing point and the daytime temperature quickly rises above 10c with full sun).

I remember well those startling pictures of kentias dripping with icicles but almost completely unmarked. I think possibly the water freezes from the outside first and insulates the leaf which remains just above freezing. I can let you have an ensete ventricosum to conduct an experiment. Should be of interest to others too.

Don't dig that purpurea just yet!

cheers

Richard

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garrin

A ways back in this thread there was mention of darker green spots on cold affected leaves; as a plant biochemist by profession I have always been mystified that in freezing temps, some palms will get these dark green, somewhat transluscent spots that look for sure like cold damage. But they then disappear when the air warms, leaving no residual damage! I'd really like to hear an explanation of this phenomenon. It occurred mostly on Archontophoenix and Howea palms in northern California on a frosty morning while I was gardening a lot there..

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Caryota_gigas
Michael,

Have you considered a sprinkler set-up like John Lok's? It needs to be done in the right way but can be really effective for the sorts of freezes that you experience (ie where the soil temperature remains well above freezing point and the daytime temperature quickly rises above 10c with full sun).

I remember well those startling pictures of kentias dripping with icicles but almost completely unmarked. I think possibly the water freezes from the outside first and insulates the leaf which remains just above freezing. I can let you have an ensete ventricosum to conduct an experiment. Should be of interest to others too.

Don't dig that purpurea just yet!

cheers

Richard

Yes I have thought about it, but I will not do it due to the fact that I dont want pipes and stakes sticking several metres into the air all over the property. If I have to do that, its not a garden anymore and I would rather grow something more cold hardy. Goodbye Archonto's, hello B. alfredii.

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Caryota_gigas
A ways back in this thread there was mention of darker green spots on cold affected leaves; as a plant biochemist by profession I have always been mystified that in freezing temps, some palms will get these dark green, somewhat transluscent spots that look for sure like cold damage. But they then disappear when the air warms, leaving no residual damage! I'd really like to hear an explanation of this phenomenon. It occurred mostly on Archontophoenix and Howea palms in northern California on a frosty morning while I was gardening a lot there..

This is a very interesting phenomenon indeed.

I have noticed though that when they are just dark green they are often alright, this usually occurs on leaflets that are much tougher than many. And if they go translucent dark green, its curtains for that leaflet.

As for it occuring on Archontophoenix, I find here that any frost damages Archonotphoenix quite badly. My A.alexandrae and A. purpurea never mark up dark green then recover. They usually are brwon within a few hours of the frost... hence why they are coming out this year, they are just not worth it at my location.

Cheers,

Michael.

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