Chambeyronia lepidota

[BS Man about Palms 2,352]

This is Basselinia velutina taken at 1180m on Mt Panie!!!

I couldn't find any seed/fruit details on the web other than that they are black when ripe. From the picture the fruit appear quite large though.

Good spot Bill.

Here is the RPS pic of lepidota compared to B. velutina...

[John in Andalucia 623]

I won't be calling mine a Basselinia, or it will slow to a halt and die. Nice Chambey..

[Tyrone 2,103]

This is Basselinia velutina taken at 1180m on Mt Panie!!!

I couldn't find any seed/fruit details on the web other than that they are black when ripe. From the picture the fruit appear quite large though.

Good spot Bill.

Here is the RPS pic of lepidota compared to B. velutina...

They sure do look similar. They actually look like the same actual plant just taken at a different angle. How do we know that the first picture is actually B velutina? The "Palms of New Caledonia" pictures B velutina and it doesn't look like that (it has a much finer leaf etc), but like it did say there is a mountain form on Mt Panie. Why do I feel like we're going down a "Dypsis ID" direction here.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm 535]

Here's the source: http://www.plantsystematics.org/taxpage/0/genus/Basselinia.html The photo was taken in 1978! There are some interesting photos on this site. I think the fruit differences are a bridge too far but maybe these two forms will look and grow quite differently and maybe we will even end up with a much faster form of lepidota. Maybe....

cheers

R

[Tyrone 2,103]

I'm going to be really bold here and say that that 1978 photo of Basselinia velutina is actually the high altitude form of Chambeyronia lepidota. I can't prove it, but if I was a betting man, that's what I'd say.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm 535]

I'm going to be really bold here and say that that 1978 photo of Basselinia velutina is actually the high altitude form of Chambeyronia lepidota. I can't prove it, but if I was a betting man, that's what I'd say.

Best regards

Tyrone

Is that branching on the inflorescence....? Hard to see.

[Tyrone 2,103]

In the main it looks unbranched but then there a couple of places that it looks like it has branched into a Y shape. It could be too "strings" that have overlapped but look like one. What is the significance of that. How many orders do the two species branch too?

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm 535]

In the main it looks unbranched but then there a couple of places that it looks like it has branched into a Y shape. It could be too "strings" that have overlapped but look like one. What is the significance of that. How many orders do the two species branch too?

Best regards

Tyrone

See lepidota inflorescences here http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Chambeyronia/lepidota.html I think Basselinia are more branched. Of more interest, I had an email from an NZ grower who has the RPS High altitude form and is finding them to be good strong growers too. He has been growing lepidota for 15 years and said he wouldn't be surprised if these were a new species.

cheers

richard

[Wanderanwills 9]

Here's the source: http://www.plantsystematics.org/taxpage/0/genus/Basselinia.html The photo was taken in 1978! There are some interesting photos on this site. I think the fruit differences are a bridge too far but maybe these two forms will look and grow quite differently and maybe we will even end up with a much faster form of lepidota. Maybe....

cheers

R

Very Interesting, The palm in the photo also looks as though it has a herbarium specimen and was collected by Harold Moore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Moore The Herbarium specimen is kept at Cornell University.

A very good chance it is correct but botanists also do make mistakes!

Be interested to see if somebody works it out.

Regards

Stephen

[Ntheastpalms 11]

Check out www.endemia.nc there is many photos of both plants in habitat.

[richnorm 535]

Check out www.endemia.nc there is many photos of both plants in habitat.

Thanks for that. Some great photos but unfortunately none of B. velutina on Mt Panie or close ups of fruit. Interesting to see the marked difference between the high and low lepidota, the low being very much like the B. velutinas pictured (possibly also low forms). Even the inflorescences appear to have a similar structure. Can't get a good view of the fruit though. If Hodel says they can be hard to tell apart in some instances I don't doubt it!

[Alberto 1,539]

I Got my high altitude C.lepidota seeds also late. I hope they still will germinate for me!

The hardiness of C.macrocarpa is said to be USDA Zone 9b: to -3.8 °C (25 °F).

Being C.lepidta from higher altitude ,is there info about cold hardiness? How is the climate of Mount Panie at the altitudes where this C.lepidota grows?

[Tyrone 2,103]

I don't know whether this will give any indication of what absolute low this species will take. I did a bit of climate sleuthing. There is no climate station near Mt Panie but I took some climate records from Poindimie on the eastern coast a little bit south of Mt Panie and at 273m asl according to Google Earth.

This is Poindimie average max and lows month by month.

Jan 28C, 22C

Feb 29C, 23C

Mar 29C, 23C

Apr 28C, 22C

May, 26C,20C

Jun 25C, 17C

Jul 24C, 17C

Aug 23C, 17C,

Sep 25C, 18C

Oct 26C, 19C

Nov 27C, 20C

Dec 28C, 22C

The lowest altitude for C lepidota was 400m and this was approx 0.5C less than Poindimie, using the 1.5C drop for every 330m elevation increase rule.

At 1000m asl the figures would read

Jan 24.5C, 18.5C

Feb 25.5C, 19.5C

Mar 25.5C, 19.5C

Apr 24.5C 18.5C

May 22.5C 16.5C

Jun 21.5C 13.5C

Jul 20.5C 13.5C

Aug 19.5C 13.5C

Sep 21.5C 14.5C

Oct 22.5C 15.5C

Nov 23.5C 16.5C

Dec 24.5C 18.5C

At 1500m asl the supposed highest elevation for C lepidota the figures read.

Jan 22.5C 16.5C

Feb 23.5C 17.5C

Mar 23.5C 17.5C

Apr 22.5C 16.5C

May 20.5C 14.5C

Jun 19.5C 11.5C

Jul 18.5C 11.5C

Aug17.5C 11.5C

Sep 19.5C 12.5C

Oct 20.5C 13.5C

Nov 21.5C 14.5C

Dec 22.5C 16.5C

Mont Panie is very wet with year round rainfall. Looking at the figures this species and those that grow in the area don't need much heat, but more of a humid moist mild climate that doesn't get too cold at night. Looking at the June to Oct figures at 1500m asl my C lepidota's should love sitting out in the rain this winter with a bit of protection from any real cold events at night. I think for me summer is the concern. We're about 5-10C too hot during the day and we generally don't get below 20C until way after midnight in mid summer. I may have to set up an evaporative air conditioning system in my shadehouse just for this purpose, at least until they are bigger and can handle things easier. This species and many of the other NC species really suit a mild maritime climate, especially those from some altitude.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Jason Baker Portugal 6]

I got two sprouted seeds this spring. They were in my study which is the warmest spot in my house but still not that hot. They went brown quickly so when the weather warmed up a bit I but them outside with the C. ventricosum. The M. l.´s went green again and are growing just fine. Lokks like they really need fresh air and tons of moisture.

Jason

[Alberto 1,539]

Thanks Jason!!!

[MatNC 1]

Tyrone is right. Palm pic in post 81 is not B.velutina. It’s C.lepidota 110% sure.

There are several identification errors about NC palms on plantsystematics.org. Basselinia deplanchei on Mt Boulinda wich is in fact B.sordida. There are few examples. Those pics were taken when H.E.Moore was working there on nc palms.

That's effectively the high elevation form growing in low shrub vegetation. Normal habit at high elevation.

Mat.

[BS Man about Palms 2,352]

Mat- Good to see your return here. Please post more often!!

[Tyrone 2,103]

Tyrone is right. Palm pic in post 81 is not B.velutina. It’s C.lepidota 110% sure.

There are several identification errors about NC palms on plantsystematics.org. Basselinia deplanchei on Mt Boulinda wich is in fact B.sordida. There are few examples. Those pics were taken when H.E.Moore was working there on nc palms.

That's effectively the high elevation form growing in low shrub vegetation. Normal habit at high elevation.

Mat.

Thanks for that Matt. I got something right.

Do you have any more amazing wild shots of Mt Panie palms etc. It's great to see you on here.

Best regards

Tyrone

[MatNC 1]

I understand that C. macrocarpa may grow alongside C. lepidota on Mt Panie. Perhaps the High elevation form is showing a little hybrid vigour?

C.mac is growing between 0 to 500m on Mt Panié.

I'm not familiar with C.lepidota seedlings. Indicated growth rates are impressive for the high elevation form. I was not attempting so much like some of you said. I know of other similar examples with nc palms.

Mat.

[MatNC 1]

How definitive would it be reasonable to expect those quoted seed sizes to be? I would tend to view them as a rough guide for typical values rather than precise bounds. There's a lot of variability in nature. Those seeds above look to be about 20mm (when fully cleaned of fibre) so not that far out of the range for a highly obscure and presumably little studied palm. The high altitude seeds don't fit the textbook description for lepidota...

I disagree with your "little studied palm" comment.

Basselinia velutina is a variable specie but will always show little black rounded fruits. Basselinia velutina has a large but sparse distribution. And locations have been correctly documented. There are few differences between populations but not about fruits or seeds.

B.velutina could easily be a slower specie than C.lepidota (the extra slow form will all know of...).

Other big fruit species known in the narrow distribution of C.lepidota are Clinosperma macrocarpa (ex Lavoixia) and Chambeyronia macrocarpa. So C.lepidota seems to be the right specie to me.

To which textbook description are you referring. Are you talking about a description in the Palms of the South West Pacific you mentionned earlier.

The original description is from H.E.Moore in 1978. This description is certainly of very difficult access. [gentes Herbarum (Ithaca), 11(4): 291 (1978) H.E.Moore]. But maybe you know of "the indigenous palms of new caledonia" publied in Allertonia 1984 and written by Moore and Uhl. This manual is a technical reference on nc palms. Not up to date but very accurate compared to the other reference book "the palms of new caledonia".

So the description in Allertonia was done by Moore according to several indicated collections from different locations and different elevation (high and low). That's a very large quantity of actualy known populations regarding the narrow distribution of C.lepidota. Moore was already talking about important variations in fruits and seeds shape. Unfortunately there is no fruit's cross section drawing for this particular specie.

There is an additional interesting comment made by Moore. "The fruit and seed of this specie vary in shape from obovoid to ellipsoid and correspondingly in size in the same manner as the fruit and seed of C.macrocarpa." He was referring to difference of fruit/seed shape between common c.mac and the hookeri form previously separated and named C.hookeri.

Please take a look at the link below. That's a C.lepidota collection by Moore and others at 900m in 1971. It shows a different fruit's shape from what Dale and Roberto have shown.

http://dsiphoto.mnhn.fr/sonnerat/LAPI/scanE/E20081215/P00065134.jpg

Several collections have been made since Moore works. There are many collections done by Pintaud and Hodel for example. From different locations and different elevations too. No recorded changes.

I think we are just dealing with two already known different form of C.lepidota. Certainly no correctly known from a cultivation point of view like a lot of nc species/forms.

Mat.

[MatNC 1]

Thanks for that Matt. I got something right.

Do you have any more amazing wild shots of Mt Panie palms etc. It's great to see you on here.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Bill, Tyrone,

Would like to post more often but time is missing to me...

I don't have any more pics of Mt Panie palms. :/

I'm wondering if the particular aspect of the high elevation form is fixed or not. (long)time will says...

Mat.

[richnorm 535]

To which textbook description are you referring. Are you talking about a description in the Palms of the South West Pacific you mentionned earlier.

Mat,

Many thanks for your precise observations and opinions. The text book was Palms of the South West Pacific, by John Dowe 1989. I will get over there myself one of these days.

cheers

Richard

[MatNC 1]

The text book was Palms of the South West Pacific, by John Dowe 1989.

Thanks Richard. I know of a friend of mine who own this book. I will take a look soon. I especialy would like to see the fruit/seed drawing you are referring to.

Mat.

[Alberto 1,539]

Thanks Jason!!!

Sorry!!! Thanks Tyrone, for the info!!!

[Tyrone 2,103]

Alberto, I thought Jason's info was good too.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Carlo Morici 116]

Today I have been palming around with Colin Wilson, our visitor from Australia. It has been a long, hard palmy day.

We have seen the first Chambeyronia lepidota in the ground in Tenerife.

It was planted in the Faculty of Medicine, a few months ago, by Kevin... the man who is converting the campus into a great palm collection. Hopefully it is the right spot and it does not get too hot in Summer. It is in a N exposed corner, chosen because there is a supremely robust Howea forsteriana growing by, so it should be cool enough.

I sprouted the seed almost two years ago from the earlier batch that was put on the market, thanks to Big50 who called my attention at the right time. I wish we had many more to try.

Carlo

[Tyrone 2,103]

Would love to see a picture of it Carlo. Then we can follow it's growth through the years. A very good experiment indeed.

Best regards

tyrone

[BS Man about Palms 2,352]

Yes Please a picture Carlo!

[Carlo Morici 116]

I run out of batteries and took no pictures. Maybe Colin took one? It is a tiny green dot on the ground. I got to go up there again in a month or so.

[Big50 16]

Carlos how are your seedlings?.

[Alberto 1,539]

Here are my best two seedlings. Not as good as Roberto's robust colourful specimens.

Best regards

Tyrone

Thanks Tyrone, possibly a little more robust than the low/mid altitude form but clearly nothing like Roberto's. He must be a star grower! My high altitude form should arrive in the next week or so though have probably fossilised by now!

cheers

Richard

Richard,today I saw that 7 out of 18 seeds are showing the first signs of germination, so the viability of this seeds is very good and yours probably also aren´t fossilised! And thinking that the first ones were purchased at 29-sept-2008 !!!

[Carlo Morici 116]

Big50,

Last year I sprouted some 30 seedlings and I lost most of them during a heat wave. I could save 3 for me, 1 for Kevin (Faculty of Medicine) a few went to Alicante with Paco Älvarez (and he said they are fine!) and... I think that is all. Mine don't look spectacular... just three leaves but going.

Carlo

[Tyrone 2,103]

Big50,

Last year I sprouted some 30 seedlings and I lost most of them during a heat wave. I could save 3 for me, 1 for Kevin (Faculty of Medicine) a few went to Alicante with Paco Älvarez (and he said they are fine!) and... I think that is all. Mine don't look spectacular... just three leaves but going.

Carlo

That's bad Carlo. What temperature did you hit? I'm sorry to hear that.

We went through our hottest summer ever, with some days in a row over 40C and a couple of 44C days in there and I lost 6 when I repotted from 27 that sprouted. I was annoyed at losing 6.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Alberto 1,539]

Alberto, I thought Jason's info was good too.

Tyrone

Of course!!!

But i was refering to the effort to calculate the averages max.and min. temps. of mount Panie!!!

[Tyrone 2,103]

I'm glad you found it useful Alberto. I sometimes do that with different species to figure out roughly what climate they will get at altitude, and then try and figure out how to grow them in the garden or nursery from the answers I get. I'm still learning though.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm 535]

Here are my best two seedlings. Not as good as Roberto's robust colourful specimens.

Best regards

Tyrone

Thanks Tyrone, possibly a little more robust than the low/mid altitude form but clearly nothing like Roberto's. He must be a star grower! My high altitude form should arrive in the next week or so though have probably fossilised by now!

cheers

Richard

Richard,today I saw that 7 out of 18 seeds are showing the first signs of germination, so the viability of this seeds is very good and yours probably also aren´t fossilised! And thinking that the first ones were purchased at 29-sept-2008 !!!

Many thanks Alberto. I suspect they were either in special storage or a new supply. Still waiting for mine.

[palmtreesforpleasure 456]

-

[Carlo Morici 116]

Last year I sprouted some 30 seedlings and I lost most of them during a heat wave. I could save 3 for me, 1 for Kevin (Faculty of Medicine) a few went to Alicante with Paco Älvarez (and he said they are fine!) and... I think that is all. Mine don't look spectacular... just three leaves but going.

That's bad Carlo. What temperature did you hit? I'm sorry to hear that.

We had about a week of 28-32 at night and 37-42 during the day. I had them in 60% shade with 2 waterings per day but that was not enough to keep them alive. We usually get two or three heat waves per year but they are just 2-3 days and that time it was a whole week. First they became dull-coloured and then they rotted at the base. I saved the last ones by placing them under the cooler 100% shade of a large mango tree, and that was just fine.

Sad, true story.

Carlo

[Tassie_Troy1971 1,076]

Any updates from around the globe on this beautiful but difficult palm !

[Tyrone 2,103]

Had a couple die during summer but the others are OK. They sit on the floor of my shadehouse where I keep my NC palms like B hapala etc that don't want heat, against the only wall with shadecloth (the other walls are clear plastic). This allows the cool westerly seabreezes in during summer but blocks the dry summer easterlies. Now the cool weather has arrived with a bit of rain and humidity I expect some reasonable growth over winter. I did have a problem with rats, but they now seem to avoid them now the seeds are old and used up. I think they are much like Oraniopsis to grow. Slow as anything and need coolish mild wet weather to do well.

Best regards

Tyrone