Cycad cones and flushes

[amh]

3 hours ago, Manalto said:

I was happy, no, thrilled to discover that both my C. debaoensis and the hybrid (Deb X Tait? Deb X Panz? Joseph said it gets big.) I got from Texas Cold Hardy are sending up velvety shoots. Just one each so far, but even so it's more than I expected; last year was rough on them and I wasn't there to coddle. No photo because there's not much to see yet. Any advice to urge them along?

Warmer weather and a little fertilizer.

[Manalto]

1 hour ago, amh said:

Warmer weather and a little fertilizer.

I have arranged for both!

[Tracy]

13 hours ago, Manalto said:

Just one each so far, but even so it's more than I expected; last year was rough on them and I wasn't there to coddle. No photo because there's not much to see yet. Any advice to urge them along?

Cycads and coddling don't go together.  If you have them placed in your garden the appropriate spot for heat, good drainage and minimize the winter cold exposure, then you have done everything necessary except for giving them a drink as needed.  The only coddling is protect them from anything dropping on them during the flush or curious neighbors from touching the flushes if they are out front.  If you however can control the weather, focusing it on the needs of your cycads is a little self centered... maybe cure some droughts instead

[Manalto]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Cycads and coddling don't go together.  If you have them placed in your garden the appropriate spot for heat, good drainage and minimize the winter cold exposure, then you have done everything necessary except for giving them a drink as needed.  

That's what I meant by coddling. I'm sorry if you didn't like my choice of word.

[Tracy]

On 5/10/2021 at 11:21 AM, Tracy said:

a visual.

 

Despite pushing a flush of 15 new leaves, when I look down in the center, I see a few additional leaves that are only about 1" long and deformed.  I guess it just didn't have enough juice to push out those additional leaves or it's saving some fuel in the tank for something else later in the season.

This was probably about 2-3 years old when I got it and it was pushing out 2-3 leaves at a time.  That was about 14 or maybe even 15 years ago and still no cone.  So let's call it a 17 or 18 year old that still hasn't hit puberty yet.  It goes to show that these cycads lifespans are measured on a different time scale than most mammals including humans.

[Merlyn]

It is apparently Dioon Spinulosum flushing time in Central Floriduh!  I planted this last fall, with about 2.5 feet of trunk and ~16 good fronds.  A couple got a touch of frostburn with medium frost at 28F and later heavy frost at 30F.  My other two smaller ones (about 1' of trunk each) are also flushing, but this one with 27 new 6.5' long fronds is a beast!

[DG2020]

Brown emergent ferox flush. 

[DG2020]

Sunlight in the first picture gave a nice accent to the flush but the color is chocolate brown without it. 

[Tracy]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:27 PM, DG2020 said:

Sunlight in the first picture gave a nice accent to the flush but the color is chocolate brown without it

The only Encephalartos genus I have that flush with these colors are a couple of E sclavoi.  What I have noticed is that the color can change through the flush with deep chocolate colors to brighter bronze shades.  I wonder what triggers these colors in some Encephalartos.  My next door neighbor has a large older E ferox with about 2' of trunk which never flushes with color.  In addition to my 2 sclavoi that flush bronze I have a third that never flushes with color.  I'm sure that over time we will learn that there are some genes that cause them to express this color where some have it and others do not.  My guess is that it would be a recessive trait, but I'm not a geneticist by any means. Gene sequencing of cycads is still in its infancy though with only a few that have been looked at in the past that I'm aware of but there is some interest now in sequencing some of the more threatened species

[DG2020]

There was a similar color shift during this flush. The brown peaked after a week and is now turning towards green. The rest of the E. Ferox I have planted flush green.

I am not a geneticist either but agree that a colored flush is likely linked to a recessive trait. The brown flush E. ferox is a female.  When pollinated with a mix of pollen from a few green flushing male E. ferox.  some of the seedlings have a brown leaf flush. It would be interesting to see the results using pollen from a brown flush E. Ferox 

[Meangreen94z]

[rprimbs]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:27 PM, DG2020 said:

Sunlight in the first picture gave a nice accent to the flush but the color is chocolate brown without it. 

That is really cool!    Is it a male, or female?  Has is coned yet?

[DG2020]

It is a female E. ferox.  A brown flush    provides a brief accent but a big red cone steals the show. 

[Coasta]

@Meangreen94z is that dioon edule queretaro?

[Meangreen94z]

40 minutes ago, Coasta said:

@Meangreen94z is that dioon edule queretaro?

You are correct.

[Coasta]

@Meangreen94zPretty!! I am still waiting for mine to wake up :). My dioon rio verde has flushed though! I will have to take a photo and post it here. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Coasta

[Meangreen94z]

1 hour ago, Coasta said:

@Meangreen94zPretty!! I am still waiting for mine to wake up :). My dioon rio verde has flushed though! I will have to take a photo and post it here. 

Nice. I have a Rio Verde as well,  Jacala Hidalgo, and the “Valles” form of Edule. I’ll try to post them as they flush. Sorry the containers/background aren’t the greatest.

[freakypalmguy]

Wow, that chocolate ferox  is a beauty

Planted this 12ish years ago, labeled as a spineless trispinosus, it’s been a frustrating plant, every flush has jammed leaves like this. Don’t know what causes it? Any ideas? no others in my garden have this issue.

Edited May 31, 2021 by freakypalmguy

[Coasta]

@Meangreen94z would love to see! 

Here is a my dioon Edule var. Rio Verde. Thanks to @Rod Anderson for this wonderful high quality Dioon! I couldn't have asked for a better dioon

Edited June 1, 2021 by Coasta
Forgot to tag

[Meangreen94z]

Yeah, he has some spectacular stuff. I’ve only bought a couple hyphaene and seed from him, I think he prefers to sell his cycad locally.

[Coasta]

@Meangreen94z very cool! He has some nice hyphaenes!

Edited June 1, 2021 by Coasta

[Tracy]

17 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

a spineless trispinosus, it’s been a frustrating plant, every flush has jammed leaves like this. Don’t know what causes it? Any ideas? no others in my garden have this issue.

 

17 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

 

I don't have an answer as to why, but know that some plants have a tendency to do this.  Many years ago, I was trying to select an Encephalartos nubimontanus from George Sparkman, as he had a lot of specimens to choose from.  We were walking through and there were a group that had extremely twisted flushes like this, but they were hardened off.  I asked about them and he mentioned that he had some clients that liked the really twisted ones, particularly people that had other forms, kind of for the novelty of  it.  I don't recall if they were offspring of a specific plant or just ones that he had set aside because they were exhibiting this characteristic.  In that I was selecting my first E nubimontanus at the time, I went for a more traditionally structured plant.

While there could be something nutritionally going on with your E trispinosis, it could just be a weird form too.  Growing a few backyard plants, I don't have the experience of someone that was pollinating and germinating cones on the scale that George was so I'm limited to what I heard and remember (which I can't guarantee for accuracy of memory or understanding always).  I guess I would just chalk it up to a novel plant though.

[freakypalmguy]

32 minutes ago, Tracy said:

 

I don't have an answer as to why, but know that some plants have a tendency to do this.  Many years ago, I was trying to select an Encephalartos nubimontanus from George Sparkman, as he had a lot of specimens to choose from.  We were walking through and there were a group that had extremely twisted flushes like this, but they were hardened off.  I asked about them and he mentioned that he had some clients that liked the really twisted ones, particularly people that had other forms, kind of for the novelty of  it.  I don't recall if they were offspring of a specific plant or just ones that he had set aside because they were exhibiting this characteristic.  In that I was selecting my first E nubimontanus at the time, I went for a more traditionally structured plant.

While there could be something nutritionally going on with your E trispinosis, it could just be a weird form too.  Growing a few backyard plants, I don't have the experience of someone that was pollinating and germinating cones on the scale that George was so I'm limited to what I heard and remember (which I can't guarantee for accuracy of memory or understanding always).  I guess I would just chalk it up to a novel plant though.

Thank you Tracy, I was thinking you might have some information for me. George definitely was one of the wealths of knowledge on cycads, so if George said it was a desirable form , that’s what I’ll call it from now on :-) Novelty it is, 

I’ve tried fertilizers, less water, more water, and I’ve never seen any kind of insect or bug on it so it’s got to be what you’re saying then, just it’s form. 
 

thank you again, 

Matt

[GeneAZ]

19 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

Wow, that chocolate ferox  is a beauty

Planted this 12ish years ago, labeled as a spineless trispinosus, it’s been a frustrating plant, every flush has jammed leaves like this. Don’t know what causes it? Any ideas? no others in my garden have this issue.

This ingrown-toenail effect is from excess nitrogen in some individuals.  Some individuals are more efficient at capturing and storing nitrogen and eventually it will produce this result.  A lesser symptom of this same cause is oddly curled leaflets on otherwise healthy and typical plants.

Usually these plants also stop producing active roots in time as the whole plant becomes clogged with nitrogen and the apex goes dormant or dies.

To reverse it, you have to pull off all nitrogen for a season and replace with chelated iron which seems to clear the problem in about six months.  But these individuals tend to always be super efficient at capturing nitrogen and will return to the syndrome if you return to normal nitrogen levels.  That's my experience anyway.

 

 

 

[freakypalmguy]

2 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

This ingrown-toenail effect is from excess nitrogen in some individuals.  Some individuals are more efficient at capturing and storing nitrogen and eventually it will produce this result.  A lesser symptom of this same cause is oddly curled leaflets on otherwise healthy and typical plants.

Usually these plants also stop producing active roots in time as the whole plant becomes clogged with nitrogen and the apex goes dormant or dies.

To reverse it, you have to pull off all nitrogen for a season and replace with chelated iron which seems to clear the problem in about six months.  But these individuals tend to always be super efficient at capturing nitrogen and will return to the syndrome if you return to normal nitrogen levels.  That's my experience anyway.

 

 

Wait a minute, could urine cause this? It is right near my BBQ so it gets pee’d on quite frequently.

[Tracy]

6 hours ago, Tracy said:

We were walking through and there were a group that had extremely twisted flushes like this, but they were hardened off.

 

4 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

This ingrown-toenail effect is from excess nitrogen in some individuals.

 

2 hours ago, freakypalmguy said:

 

Wait a minute, could urine cause this? It is right near my BBQ so it gets pee’d on quite frequently.

I should point out that what you are showing and Gene is describing in twisted "ingrown-toenail" is actually different than the nubi's I was describing which were twisted but not stunted to this degree.  Bottom line, you should probably try what Gene has suggested in decreasing the nitrogen as in maybe finding a different spot in the garden to urinate  and skipping the nitrogen fertilizer altogether for a year and see how it flushes.  I would hate to see you lose the plant if it is an excess nitrogen issue that is so easy to solve.  Similar issues can have different causes, so the twisted nubi's may have had nothing to do with nitrogen while ingrown-toenail type flushes could have everything to do with nitrogen.

[Gallop]

Dioon edule “queretaro” flushing 

[freakypalmguy]

14 hours ago, Tracy said:

 

 

I should point out that what you are showing and Gene is describing in twisted "ingrown-toenail" is actually different than the nubi's I was describing which were twisted but not stunted to this degree.  Bottom line, you should probably try what Gene has suggested in decreasing the nitrogen as in maybe finding a different spot in the garden to urinate  and skipping the nitrogen fertilizer altogether for a year and see how it flushes.  I would hate to see you lose the plant if it is an excess nitrogen issue that is so easy to solve.  Similar issues can have different causes, so the twisted nubi's may have had nothing to do with nitrogen while ingrown-toenail type flushes could have everything to do with nitrogen.

Sounds good Tracy, that’s exactly what I’m going to do, no more pee/ fert  on the tri for a while and give it a dose of chelated iron, I’ll report back in a year :-)

[Tracy]

It is a year out of sync with my female Cycas debaoensis, but at least I know I will have a male a little more convenient in the future for attempts at pollination.  Male Cycas debaoensis cone popping out on this for its first gender reveal.   Sorry, no explosions or pyrotechnics just an old school cone for this party.

[GeneAZ]

23 hours ago, Tracy said:

 

 

I should point out that what you are showing and Gene is describing in twisted "ingrown-toenail" is actually different than the nubi's I was describing which were twisted but not stunted to this degree.  Bottom line, you should probably try what Gene has suggested in decreasing the nitrogen as in maybe finding a different spot in the garden to urinate  and skipping the nitrogen fertilizer altogether for a year and see how it flushes.  I would hate to see you lose the plant if it is an excess nitrogen issue that is so easy to solve.  Similar issues can have different causes, so the twisted nubi's may have had nothing to do with nitrogen while ingrown-toenail type flushes could have everything to do with nitrogen.

Be careful with the distinction between "excess" nitrogen, and an individual plant that is hyper efficient at collecting and storing nitrogen in the stem and apex. 

What you're seeing in the plant at the start of this discussion is not fertilizer burn or excess, in my opinion.  It is this specimen's systemic overload from its own storage metabolism.  Like a goldfish that eats till it bursts.  Ultimately, this individual will grow perfectly on less nitrogen than is usually appreciated by cycads.  I'd probably only give it fert every other year, but give EDDHA 6% iron every year to all my cycads.

[Tracy]

21 minutes ago, GeneAZ said:

It is this specimen's systemic overload from its own storage metabolism. 

Understood... some specimens metabolize nutrients differently than others just like we humans do.

Regarding the EDDHA 6% iron, I have never used it before on cycads, only a few palms; I will have to look into it.  Thank you for the advice Gene, any particular brand and source that you use for the EDDHA 6% iron chelate?  It seems the last time I bought it I had some trouble finding it in retail outlets.

[freakypalmguy]

36 minutes ago, GeneAZ said:

Be careful with the distinction between "excess" nitrogen, and an individual plant that is hyper efficient at collecting and storing nitrogen in the stem and apex. 

What you're seeing in the plant at the start of this discussion is not fertilizer burn or excess, in my opinion.  It is this specimen's systemic overload from its own storage metabolism.  Like a goldfish that eats till it bursts.  Ultimately, this individual will grow perfectly on less nitrogen than is usually appreciated by cycads.  I'd probably only give it fert every other year, but give EDDHA 6% iron every year to all my cycads.

Thank you for the information Gene, this is what my local supply store had in stock, and I already gave it a dose per the instructions. Do you think the 10% too much? I also just noticed it has more nitrogen :-(

Edited June 2, 2021 by freakypalmguy

[GeneAZ]

Matt, what you gave will help a lot with the clearing of the nitrogen.  The Grow More does have more nitrogen, which is what you're trying to avoid at this point, but you should be okay.

I use the FertiLome product that's EDDHA 6% and contains no additional nitrogen, at the rate of one teaspoon per gallon applied twice annually.

Tracy, I buy it on line where I can find the best price, which fluctuates a great deal.  

 

[freakypalmguy]

revolution X guizhouensis pushing doubles

[edbrown_III]

Dioon angustifolium head I am rooting 

[Merlyn]

This seedling of Cycas Clivicola v. Lutea (supposedly) just pushed its first 4 leaf flush!  It had been doing 1 leaf at a time since I bought it in early 2019, and has been in the ground since May 2020.  It has been super windy recently, so the leaflets are a little bit distorted.  But it's a very good start to getting bigger!  Oddly enough the new flush is slightly bluish, which I did not think was a characteristic of Clivicola.  I also bought Siamensis, Elephantipes, and Pectinata at the same time.  So it's entirely possible I mislabeled, or was shipped the wrong plant.  Either way I like it, and it handled 30F with frost with no damage.  To the left is a Caryota Gigas that wants more fertilizer.  Above is an E. Turneri and upper right is an E. Tegulaneus.

[Scott W]

Tiny offshoot on this Cycas thourasii flushing...

[Tracy]

17 hours ago, Merlyn said:

seedling of Cycas clivicola v. lutea (supposedly) just pushed its first 4 leaf flush!

Interesting, Cycas clivicola are not common to see in gardens here in Southern California, so I'll be interested to see what this looks like as it starts to mature.

17 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Above is an E. Turneri and upper right is an E. Tegulaneus.

Give the E tegulanseus plenty of room to grow.  A former member of the Palm Society, now deceased lived nearby and the garden still has a large older specimen in the backyard.  It is a species that has a tremendous spread on the leaves as opposed to some of the other Central African Encephalartos that tend to be more upright or at least can be trimmed to remain that way if you remove the older flushes.  Encephalartos turneri is an underused but beautiful cycad, very clean looking with its structure and boat shaped leaflets.

[Tracy]

Lepidozamia peroffskyana male cone uncorking or unscrewing I guess would be a more appropriate description.  Will gain several inches in height as the unscrewing occurs and then will be followed by the second cone.

[freakypalmguy]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Lepidozamia peroffskyana male cone uncorking or unscrewing I guess would be a more appropriate description.  Will gain several inches in height as the unscrewing occurs and then will be followed by the second cone.

A time lapse of that would be really cool