Need help with Sabal ID

[DarinAZ]

Hi everyone,

I've seen this Sabal at the Phoenix Zoo for several years now. A couple years ago I got some seeds, and finally sowed them this spring. So I now have some little sabal babies , but I don't know what they are! I would appreciate any help anyone could provide me, i could also go back and get more pics if need be. Anyway, this tree is now about 10ft tall, with i'd guess a 4ft trunk? the seeds were rather large (as you can see) and sorta flattened, and not round. they were very dark brown (after I cleaned off the flesh). the seed stalk was quite short (maybe 3ft?) and well within the leaves.

I have asked a few other online folks on other forums, and have come back with suggestions of S. domingensis, S. causiarum and S. pumos. help! LOL thanks!

[Ken Johnson]

Those big fruit look like bermudana.

[DarinAZ]

Those big fruit look like bermudana.

hmm, that never even crossed my mind. It looks a bit different than this one though, which people IDd for me as a S. bermudana. BUt i do remember this seeding as well, and I think the seed stalks were short too.

[osideterry]

Congrats Darin... this will be a long thread!

[MattyB]

The only help I can offer is that it's not S. causiarum.

[DarinAZ]

The only help I can offer is that it's not S. causiarum.

well that DOES help i'm not a big expert on Sabal, so may I ask what you're using to rule it out? or it just doesn't look at all like it?

[sonoranfans]

Hi everyone,

I've seen this Sabal at the Phoenix Zoo for several years now. A couple years ago I got some seeds, and finally sowed them this spring. So I now have some little sabal babies , but I don't know what they are! I would appreciate any help anyone could provide me, i could also go back and get more pics if need be. Anyway, this tree is now about 10ft tall, with i'd guess a 4ft trunk? the seeds were rather large (as you can see) and sorta flattened, and not round. they were very dark brown (after I cleaned off the flesh). the seed stalk was quite short (maybe 3ft?) and well within the leaves.

I have asked a few other online folks on other forums, and have come back with suggestions of S. domingensis, S. causiarum and S. pumos. help! LOL thanks!

Darin,

I have two sabals that appear to be just like this one(the larger of the two is fruiting the last two years), same large pear shaped fruits, but my sabal is notably healthier than that one, since I apparently take better care of it. Mine gets more sun and is wider, that one is in about half day shade. I know where that one is at the zoo(take the trail left of the group entrance(near the elephants) and its right on the left). I also have a sabal bermudana, and the fruits are round and much smaller(9-10mm), it still has fruit on it now. My sabal was called "sabal blackburniana" when I bought it at treeland in chandler, and has 6' long petioles(in contrast to the 4' long bermudana ones. They are also way thicker in the petiole than bermudana, perhaps 3x as thick. The 20 year old 25' tall parent tree of my sabal is on site at the top of the palm display at treeland. If you go there and ask for Don he will show you the tree. Taxonomists have decided that it is a sabal palmetto, but the fruits and crowns are much larger, perhaps half again as wide(my larger juvenile with a little under 3' of clear trunk is about 15' wide. I dont think sabal species are well understood as there may be some hybridization going on in some cases. For example, Sabal riverside is a massive sabal with no apparent species assigned my taxonomists. Sabal blackburnia is definitely different than palmetto or bermudana in the physical stature, its much larger and the fruits are remarkably different. It also grows alot faster, mine puts out around 10 fans a year and has grown from a little over 3' tall to about 14' tall in about 4 years, leaving my bermudana in the dust. Once it gets a trunk, it will grow pretty quickly in our heat. If you would like to see my sabals, give me a PM and we can arrange it.

Tom

[sonoranfans]

Those big fruit look like bermudana.

hmm, that never even crossed my mind. It looks a bit different than this one though, which people IDd for me as a S. bermudana. BUt i do remember this seeding as well, and I think the seed stalks were short too.

And this one looks just like my sabal bermudana, shorter more slender petioles, smaller fans, more dense crown appearance. Mine has only 18" of trunk and has been fruiting for a few years.

[DarinAZ]

Darin,

I have two sabals that appear to be just like this one(the larger of the two is fruiting the last two years), same large pear shaped fruits, but my sabal is notably healthier than that one, since I apparently take better care of it. Mine gets more sun and is wider, that one is in about half day shade. I know where that one is at the zoo(take the trail left of the group entrance(near the elephants) and its right on the left). I also have a sabal bermudana, and the fruits are round and much smaller(9-10mm), it still has fruit on it now. My sabal was called "sabal blackburniana" when I bought it at treeland in chandler, and has 6' long petioles(in contrast to the 4' long bermudana ones. They are also way thicker in the petiole than bermudana, perhaps 3x as thick. The 20 year old 25' tall parent tree of my sabal is on site at the top of the palm display at treeland. If you go there and ask for Don he will show you the tree. Taxonomists have decided that it is a sabal palmetto, but the fruits and crowns are much larger, perhaps half again as wide(my larger juvenile with a little under 3' of clear trunk is about 15' wide. I dont think sabal species are well understood as there may be some hybridization going on in some cases. For example, Sabal riverside is a massive sabal with no apparent species assigned my taxonomists. Sabal blackburnia is definitely different than palmetto or bermudana in the physical stature, its much larger and the fruits are remarkably different. It also grows alot faster, mine puts out around 10 fans a year and has grown from a little over 3' tall to about 14' tall in about 4 years, leaving my bermudana in the dust. Once it gets a trunk, it will grow pretty quickly in our heat. If you would like to see my sabals, give me a PM and we can arrange it.

Tom

hey tom.

thanks for your reply. so are you saying that this is the same as what you bought as a "blackburniana?" I see that its been lumped with S. palmetto now as you have stated. ANyway i hope i'm understanding correctly. I did google it and it does seem like thats what it might be. I don't understand why it would have such a big difference in fruit size though LOL, but I guess the taxonomists must have had some reason to lump it with palmetto. For now though, blackburniana seems to be a good guess as to what it is, esp if you have palms here in basically the same conditions, that look very similar. I was a little worried that any comparisons to other spp might be hard since we have so few Sabal in town, and our environmental conditions sometimes make our plants look very different from what they look like in CA or FL.

[sonoranfans]

Darin,

I have two sabals that appear to be just like this one(the larger of the two is fruiting the last two years), same large pear shaped fruits, but my sabal is notably healthier than that one, since I apparently take better care of it. Mine gets more sun and is wider, that one is in about half day shade. I know where that one is at the zoo(take the trail left of the group entrance(near the elephants) and its right on the left). I also have a sabal bermudana, and the fruits are round and much smaller(9-10mm), it still has fruit on it now. My sabal was called "sabal blackburniana" when I bought it at treeland in chandler, and has 6' long petioles(in contrast to the 4' long bermudana ones. They are also way thicker in the petiole than bermudana, perhaps 3x as thick. The 20 year old 25' tall parent tree of my sabal is on site at the top of the palm display at treeland. If you go there and ask for Don he will show you the tree. Taxonomists have decided that it is a sabal palmetto, but the fruits and crowns are much larger, perhaps half again as wide(my larger juvenile with a little under 3' of clear trunk is about 15' wide. I dont think sabal species are well understood as there may be some hybridization going on in some cases. For example, Sabal riverside is a massive sabal with no apparent species assigned my taxonomists. Sabal blackburnia is definitely different than palmetto or bermudana in the physical stature, its much larger and the fruits are remarkably different. It also grows alot faster, mine puts out around 10 fans a year and has grown from a little over 3' tall to about 14' tall in about 4 years, leaving my bermudana in the dust. Once it gets a trunk, it will grow pretty quickly in our heat. If you would like to see my sabals, give me a PM and we can arrange it.

Tom

hey tom.

thanks for your reply. so are you saying that this is the same as what you bought as a "blackburniana?" I see that its been lumped with S. palmetto now as you have stated. ANyway i hope i'm understanding correctly. I did google it and it does seem like thats what it might be. I don't understand why it would have such a big difference in fruit size though LOL, but I guess the taxonomists must have had some reason to lump it with palmetto. For now though, blackburniana seems to be a good guess as to what it is, esp if you have palms here in basically the same conditions, that look very similar. I was a little worried that any comparisons to other spp might be hard since we have so few Sabal in town, and our environmental conditions sometimes make our plants look very different from what they look like in CA or FL.

Yeah it may be a blackburniana, the fruits look identical to my eye and Ive seen that particular palm at the zoo. Don says he pots up a bunch each year from his monster sabal and that there is some variation, so perhaps its some kind of hybrid. I have seen perhaps 3-4 other ones around the valley in yards. Im pretty sure you can go down to treeland and get a 15g one for $50 or less.

Tom

[FRITO]

ill rule out causiarum also. its lacking the ligules in near the base of the petioles. (paper sheath material)

and causiarum has distinct ligules.

It may be in fact blackburiana. I have seedlings of 'blackburiana' and the first strap leaf wasgreen with blueish tones in it. (diffrent than causiarum, uresana, and maritima)

the blackburiana seed were large just as large as bermudana seed.

I vote domengensis or blackburiana

[plantapalm]

I will rule out domengensis they are very close to causiarum seeds.

[BS Man about Palms]

uuuhhh, I rule out Sabal mauritiiformis and yapa too.

[sonoranfans]

uuuhhh, I rule out Sabal mauritiiformis and yapa too.

Here are fruits from my 'blackburniana", they are large and brownish purple. that palm at the zoo seems malnourished, kind of stunted probably due to not being watered or fed, but the fruits are very similar.

Edited April 9, 2009 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

My bermudana fruits are probably almost 1/3 smaller, and black when ripe.

[Ken Johnson]

My bermudana fruits are probably almost 1/3 smaller, and black when ripe.

Tom,

Can we see the top of that palm?

On second look the fruit in the first picture are HUGE

[sonoranfans]

My bermudana fruits are probably almost 1/3 smaller, and black when ripe.

Tom,

Can we see the top of that palm?

On second look the fruit in the first picture are HUGE

Ken,

Here is a pic of my sabal bermudana, the one with the smaller round black fruits. It was shipped originally from florida with a tag, I forget the nursery. This palm has more blue tinting than the "blackburniana".

Edited April 9, 2009 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

Ken here is the fruiting age blackburniana(I cut off the stalks this winter). The trunk on this one seems to be getting thick fast down low over the last year.

[sonoranfans]

And here is the "blackburniana" parent tree at treeland. This tree has supplied many seeds, given rise to seedlings for more than 10 years. Sorry about the photo, only angle I could get the trunk on this day. The petiole thickness on this tree is impressive. The crown is easily over 15' wide as well.

Edited April 9, 2009 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

ill rule out causiarum also. its lacking the ligules in near the base of the petioles. (paper sheath material)

and causiarum has distinct ligules.

It may be in fact blackburiana. I have seedlings of 'blackburiana' and the first strap leaf wasgreen with blueish tones in it. (diffrent than causiarum, uresana, and maritima)

the blackburiana seed were large just as large as bermudana seed.

I vote domengensis or blackburiana

Im not sure there isnt some kind of ligule type material at the petiole base of the blackburniana. The dry wind and heat here tends to change the appearance of palms in many cases. My butias inflorescences get dessicated right off the tree. Here is a closeup of the petiole area with some paper looking material attached to the petiole base.

Edited April 9, 2009 by sonoranfans

[DarinAZ]

And here is the "blackburniana" parent tree at treeland. This tree has supplied many seeds, given rise to seedlings for more than 10 years. Sorry about the photo, only angle I could get the trunk on this day. The petiole thickness on this tree is impressive. The crown is easily over 15' wide as well.

wow that tree looks JUST like the zoo one (albeit in better health, and a few feet shorter) but the form, etc is all the same. the pics I posted are from almost 2 yrs ago, its since grown (and looks a little better too), and had more trunk. For all we know, that may very well be from the Treeland mother tree!

Edited April 9, 2009 by DarinAZ

[Ken Johnson]

YEP... THIS THREAD IS GOING PLACES NOW!

Seeing Az grown Sabals of different typs is new to me and I am in heaven.

I do not see anything yet like causiarum and I wonder what blackburniana is. Where is is supposed to be from?

Anyone in the area have what you would call bermudana? causiarum? mauritiiformis? palmettoe?

[sonoranfans]

YEP... THIS THREAD IS GOING PLACES NOW!

Seeing Az grown Sabals of different typs is new to me and I am in heaven.

I do not see anything yet like causiarum and I wonder what blackburniana is. Where is is supposed to be from?

Anyone in the area have what you would call bermudana? causiarum? mauritiiformis? palmettoe?

I have researched the internet on "blackburnianas", and its like sabal "birmingham" or "riverside", ill defined. Some call it the hispaniolan palmetto, some say its another name for domingenesis, and some say it is bermudana. It looks nothing like my bermudana to me, and I havent seen the domingenesis in person so I have no idea. Perhaps its just some kind of hybrid palmetto, like the causiarum/sabal palmettos that were discussed here recently.

My bermudana is in post 17, its more compact, smaller fans, with a skinnier trunk. Its the only bermudana besides the one at ASU that I know of around here. There are more sabals including a big uresana down at U of A, 100 mi away. Rod Anderson in the north phoenix area has a few very nice sabals, including "big leaf" and rosei. The rosei has huge petioles, they could be 8' long, and thick. Everything is planted densely at Rods place so its hard to get good shots that do justice to some of the palms. I remember standing under that rosei and asking Rod what is THAT? Other species here are rare, but I know a number of them can be grown here. Someday I will have more species of sabals, OsideTerry is coming to AZ and generously offered to drop off a few, so I have ordered 2 small causiarum and one riverside. I can tell you are a sabal fan Ken, as am I. When the winter hits and the temps drop I KNOW the sabals will look great in the spring, regardless. I even had a few palm newbies walk into the backyard, right past my 13' overall bismarckia with its 6'+ fans and say, what is THAT? They were apparently drawn in by the "blackburniana", and said it was their favorite one in the yard. I dont really have a favorite palm, but a big sabal just captivates me. Some day I hope to see a monster causiarum in habitat(or even better, if I live long enough, in my backyard).

[Ken Johnson]

Thanks for the info Tom. I am a big fan of Sabal and always want more info and pix. I agree on the visual impact of a BIG Sabal.

Here is a causiarum for you to consider for your garden. Want to know the price?

[freakypalmguy]

I'm with you guys on Sabals, one of my favorites. Pictures don't usually do them justice, and untill my wife and I saw our first big one at Gary Woods (Sabal maritima I think), we were hooked. The massive size of the petioles and fronds is beautifull. I don't really have anything to contribute to the thread as mine are all fairly small, but I am really enjoying the information and pictures.

Matt

[MattyB]

Here's a shot of S. causiarum. You can see the huge papery liguels at the petiole base. Unmistakeable trait. If you like Sabals, the last PSSC Journal has a huge article that Don Hodel wrote describing all the Sabals. I'd highly recommend getting a copy.

[Ken Johnson]

Here's a shot of S. causiarum. You can see the huge papery liguels at the petiole base. Unmistakeable trait. If you like Sabals, the last PSSC Journal has a huge article that Don Hodel wrote describing all the Sabals. I'd highly recommend getting a copy.

OK Matty don't hold out on us. This is why we have PT. Did he go so far as to list the undescribed "species"? Does he mention hybrids. Hello??????

[merrill]

Hi, Ken:

Would be grateful if you told us how to buy the Hodel Sabal article you mention. May I thank you in advance?

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Ken Johnson]

Hi, Ken:

Would be grateful if you told us how to buy the Hodel Sabal article you mention. May I thank you in advance?

Best Wishes,

merrill

Matty is the one holding back the info. In the mean time here is a yapa .

[sonoranfans]

Thanks for the info Tom. I am a big fan of Sabal and always want more info and pix. I agree on the visual impact of a BIG Sabal.

Here is a causiarum for you to consider for your garden. Want to know the price?

Wow Ken, that pic is a bit a of a tease considering it just whispers the possibilties about the rest of your place. I remember seeing it in a recent thread and I was spellbound. I'll take one of those causiarum and a half acre of your place as well. Mail it out west, Im looking for contract work to pay for it.

[sonoranfans]

Here's a shot of S. causiarum. You can see the huge papery liguels at the petiole base. Unmistakeable trait. If you like Sabals, the last PSSC Journal has a huge article that Don Hodel wrote describing all the Sabals. I'd highly recommend getting a copy.

Now thats a great palm Matty, one of them makes a whole yard. I am thinking a grove of two would make my retirement place, nothing else needed 'cept an old barbecue grill. I remember seeing that pic from the "big sabals" thread awhile back. Seeing it again makes me just all over again. I was hoping this thread would bring back some of those terrific sabals from california and florida . Is there an address I can mail to get that journal? I just dont think any feather palm quite stuns a persons "inner palm spirituality" the way that huge causiarum does, its like I found the love of my palm life. Sorry guys, didnt mean to fall to pieces like that, nice palm .

[iamjv]

Here is a shot of yours truly next to my supposed Burmudana.... (shot taken by our own NCpalmqueen during her visit). Jv

[FRITO]

Hey guys, the PSSC Sabal articles are uploaded on PALMPEDIA I posted this info in another thread and so did DEAN.

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/index.php/PA...HERN_CALIFORNIA

there is two scroll down and click on the pics.

[FRITO]

Here is a shot of the ligules (papery sheaths) on Sabal causiarum.

Sabal causiarum on the right bizmark on the left

Edited April 10, 2009 by FRITO

[FRITO]

here is Sabal bermudana in HABITAT (photo thanks to Michael)

Notic this one has some blueish/silver tones and apprently Bermudana is variable on the island

[sonoranfans]

Here is a shot of yours truly next to my supposed Burmudana.... (shot taken by our own NCpalmqueen during her visit). Jv

Sure doesnt look too much like mine JV, yours has much longer petioles, more light green in color. Should be interesting to see the fruit. One of the things that bothers me about the description of sabal palmetto is the widely varying description of the fruit, some give large size, some small, it seems awful indecisive compared to other palms. Maybe someday the information technology will allow for a detailed genetic analysis. Its not there yet for humans, but the technology will probably be easily adaptable I'd suspect. I can envision that bioinformatics will be used very heavily on us in the future, not sure that is good or bad or some of both. One thing is for sure bioinformatics will simplify the more difficult species identification and make it pretty solid even for hybrids.

[sonoranfans]

Great pics luke, those bermudana look more like mine, though they look like they get alot more moisture. Kind of makes me want to take a trip to bermuda.

[FRITO]

Here are photos of what was labeled as the '(John and Faith) Bishcock Sabal maritima 2006' that I found and saved from the CFPACS forums.

ive noticed other S .maritima do this funky trunk thing and the leaf boots seem jagged but the trunk supposely comes out smooth once all the old leaf bases rot off. anyone else have experience with maritma doing this? (Ed brown?)

[Ken Johnson]

The genus Sabal is sometimes hard to get a handle on. The easier ones to ID are the ones where variation is small and also when grown in different climates and locations still look the same (more or less). The hard ones are in a group where they all have similar looks and lots of variation. palmetto, maritima, bermudana and the bastard palms with names like Riverside and others. In between are causiarum , dominguensis, umbraculifera and others that are maybe different species, maybe not.

Even the palms in the pix from bermuda are suspect (I believe they are bermudana) because they are not realy in "habitat". They don't mow the grass in real habitat areas. I would bet that there are palmetto in Bermuda and that they can hybridize with the native population.

I Florida we have many different climates and accodingly many different looking palmettos. In Daytona Beach there are palms with 100' of wood and in Homestead to find one (In the woods) with more than 10' of wood is rare. That does not mean they are different species (Ask Scott Zona).

I like the Az pix because they show how much the "look" of a palm can change with climate and location. To put a name on them without good record keeping (a tag with a name dose not count) would be tough for some of the best botanist. Tom makes mention of DNA annalyisis, that will help one day if you want to spend the time and money to find the babies daddy.

In the mean time lets see more pix. Tell us what you think the name may be. We can at least get close and have some fun doing it.

Here is a pix of one that is easy for me to ID. mauritiiformis.

[FRITO]

Ken I enjoy the Sabal genus very much as well and have been on a mission to help spread them around and get a better handle on this not so popular genus.

Ive notice with maritima a characteristic that doesnt look to be a 'tried and true' to identifyingthis species:

notice the base of the fronds where it meets the end of the petiole. the Bishcock maritma and another planted here locally both show that straight edge (the fronds are not orbicular)

however this one at Fairchild is 360 degrees costpalmate: http://palmguide.org/image.php?image=931029M_2003013059077

I do agree though Sabals look better in person and you cant capture there presence with a click of a photo.