Queen Palms in Austin, TX

[J.O.A.]

I'd like to know people's experiences with Queen palms in Austin, TX.  I've only seen a handful of them in Austin so my guess is they're marginal here.  How many years will they survive here before the inevitable Canandian arctic blast kills them?

Also, if I decide to get some could I plant them now or should I wait until spring?

P.S. I'm actually in Cedar Park, just north of Austin and our winter lows are usually 3-4 degrees lower than the official reading at the airport.

[Zac in NC]

Well, how many years til the next big one? Could be this winter or in 5 more years. We don't really know. As to when to plant it wait until spring. I have seen the palms in Austin as well as those in San Antonio several times(3 total trips) while out visiting fellow board member Richard Travis who lives in SA.

Zac

[NBTX11]

JOA,

Hey I'm about 60 miles south of you in New Braunfels.  I have queen palms in my yard and they are doing great.  No problems whatsoever most winters.  Last year, no burning, spotting, or anything when it got down to 23 or 24F.   Although I would think you are probably about 4-5 degrees colder so they might be somewhat more marginal.  In my opinion, they are defintely worth it...There are literally hundreds of them going in around new neighborhoods around here.  Some of them very large.  Obvioulsly none have made since the 89 cold snap, but I don't think any or very few would have been killed since then, although not sure about your area since you're a tad colder.  I've seen several large ones that have probably been around 10+ plus years, maybe up to 15 years.  My neighbor has about 8 or 9 20-30 footers in his yard and I look for damage in the winter and I haven't seen any damage the past couple winters. (I'll post pics later)

Average winter, no problem. colder than normal winter, some burning and spotting, severe winter (once in 10-20 years, unless you can protect it somehow) will most likely kill it.  So they aren't totally permanent, but semi permanent, but still worth the trouble because they look great and are relatively inexpensive.  Just my 2 cents.

[NBTX11]

Oh, and I would probably wait until spring, although I did plant one during winter once and it didn't have any problem.  Of course we had a mild winter last year when I planted it.

[Austinpalm]

J.O.A.,

I have 3 queen palms in my yard in South Austin.  All came thru this past winter without a scratch.  However, a friend of mine who lives on Parmer lost a much larger queen palm to the 2 ice storms we had.  I definitely would wait until spring to plant and would try to site on the south side of a house/structure or large live oak.  

Good luck!

Clay

[Palmy]

It sounds like they will do just fine. They should grow fast there so if it does die you can get another one. They cant be all that pricey. They should survive just fine until the next big freeze eg. every 10 years. Just protect it when it gets under 23 or so. If you plant it try to plant it in a situation where it may be 1-4F higher such as a wall where you get sun, or near a pool, or in some dark black soil so it gets heat.

[Alberto]

How cold are your minimum temps?

The provenance of the queen palms is also important!

Here,native queens can handle -10`C .

  Alberto

[NBTX11]

Here are some queens from around New Braunfels, Texas - Not too far south of you.  Sorry for the clarity.

[NBTX11]

Oh, and here's a canary island date.  I'd do one of those too.

[NBTX11]

(Alberto @ Oct. 23 2006,18:08)

QUOTE

How cold are your minimum temps?

The provenance of the queen palms is also important!

Here,native queens can handle -10`C .

  Alberto

Alberto,

-10C is extremely rare here.  We haven't seen anything close to that since 1989.  I was always under the impression that queens were hardy to about -8C.  If it is -10C that's great, but I don't want to test it out any time soon.

[J.O.A.]

Thanks everyone.  I will get the Queen palms and will probably plant them this week.  Home Depot has them cheap and if they die this winter, well Home Depot has a 1-year guarantee.

[BobbyinNY]

I'm really curious as to what they're lowest temps are...... I still have mine outside and it looks great.. We've been getting into the low 40's every night for the past few nights, and the lowest temp we had so far has been 38f and no problem.

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,09:31)

QUOTE

I'm really curious as to what they're lowest temps are...... I still have mine outside and it looks great.. We've been getting into the low 40's every night for the past few nights, and the lowest temp we had so far has been 38f and no problem.

I think Eric from Leu Gardens in Orlando reported that 1989's 19-20F for a few nights in a row killed many of them in their gardens.

In a pot, their cold tolerance is probably a little less than in the ground.  That seems to be the case with many palms.  But, you dont have to worry much with temps in the upper 30's.

[BobbyinNY]

In a pot, their cold tolerance is probably a little less than in the ground.  That seems to be the case with many palms.  But, you dont have to worry much with temps in the upper 30's.

That's good to know because we may be approaching that on Thursday night and the winds are supposed to die down and that scares me.

[NBTX11]

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,10:01)

QUOTE

In a pot, their cold tolerance is probably a little less than in the ground.  That seems to be the case with many palms.  But, you dont have to worry much with temps in the upper 30's.

That's good to know because we may be approaching that on Thursday night and the winds are supposed to die down and that scares me.

Queens are pretty hardy, you'd have to get a lot colder than 38 to start worrying about them.  I don't worry about them unless it is projected to go below 25F, which is almost never for me, maybe once every year or 2.  I planted one in the middle of winter last year, then we got down to 23-24F a couple weeks later for the coldest night of the winter and it came through totally unscathed.

[BobbyinNY]

I planted one in the middle of winter last year, then we got down to 23-24F a couple weeks later for the coldest night of the winter and it came through totally unscathed.

That's good to know Jim.... I didn't think they were that hardy.... I guess because the fronds look so lacy they look  to be more "tropical".. whereas something like a washy or a sable looks alot "tougher"

[NBTX11]

Well they're not as tough as a Sabal, but maybe close in hardiness to a Washy Robusta, although probably not quite.  Definitely the most hardy "tropical" looking palm in my opinion, unless you count CIDP and Butia (they are SUPER hardy).  I've heard reports that some queens have survived temps as low as 17-18F.  I don't want to test that theory out though.  But definitely hardy to at least 20F maybe lower.

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Oct. 24 2006,09:41)

QUOTE

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,09:31)

QUOTE

I'm really curious as to what they're lowest temps are...... I still have mine outside and it looks great.. We've been getting into the low 40's every night for the past few nights, and the lowest temp we had so far has been 38f and no problem.

I think Eric from Leu Gardens in Orlando reported that 1989's 19-20F for a few nights in a row killed many of them in their gardens.

In a pot, their cold tolerance is probably a little less than in the ground.  That seems to be the case with many palms.  But, you dont have to worry much with temps in the upper 30's.

Well that's true I am sure, a prolonged period of several nights in a row of upper teens to 20F would kill them, but I think they would be ok for a one time cold event to those temps, for example a radiational event where it warmed up fast afterward.

[BobbyinNY]

Well they're not as tough as a Sabal, but maybe close in hardiness to a Washy Robusta, although probably not quite.  Definitely the most hardy "tropical" looking palm in my opinion, unless you count CIDP and Butia (they are SUPER hardy).  I've heard reports that some queens have survived temps as low as 17-18F.  I don't want to test that theory out though.  But definitely hardy to at least 20F maybe lower.

How would you compare them to a Pychtosperma Elegans?....  My P. elegans has seen 38f and it's still growing strong - but it IS in the ground. I have it covered now, but it took alot of nights in the low 40's over the past couple weeks.

[NBTX11]

I don't know, I don't have any first hand experience with them.  Maybe someone else knows...

[richtrav]

The Ptycho has no chance of making it in New Braunfels unprotected. The queen palms are not hardy either, but larger ones can tolerate about every winter the past decade has dished out (which means not much). It's not so much of a "10-year" freeze as it is about streaks; once you're riding a bad streak then forget it. There were half a dozen winters in the '80s that could have (and did) completely kill out queen palms and other marginal plants in Central Texas (Jan '82, Dec '83, Feb '85, Feb '89, Dec '89, Dec '90). All of a sudden after 1990 the bad winters just magically stopped - even 1996 was milder than any of those freezes mentioned above. I don't think it's correct to assume these events are completely random; personally I tend to put more stock into the PDO theory

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,10:43)

QUOTE

How would you compare them to a Pychtosperma Elegans?....  My P. elegans has seen 38f and it's still growing strong - but it IS in the ground. I have it covered now, but it took alot of nights in the low 40's over the past couple weeks.

Not even close!

P. elegans is not a very hardy palm.  

Low 40's will not harm it, but any amount of frost will damage it.

[NBTX11]

(richtrav @ Oct. 24 2006,20:29)

QUOTE

The Ptycho has no chance of making it in New Braunfels unprotected. The queen palms are not hardy either, but larger ones can tolerate about every winter the past decade has dished out (which means not much). It's not so much of a "10-year" freeze as it is about streaks; once you're riding a bad streak then forget it. There were half a dozen winters in the '80s that could have (and did) completely kill out queen palms and other marginal plants in Central Texas (Jan '82, Dec '83, Feb '85, Feb '89, Dec '89, Dec '90). All of a sudden after 1990 the bad winters just magically stopped - even 1996 was milder than any of those freezes mentioned above. I don't think it's correct to assume these events are completely random; personally I tend to put more stock into the PDO theory

Rich,

Bobby was asking about his Ptycho in NY.  I knew they weren't hardy here.

As far as queens, I am not disputing what you say, but I could take you for a drive within 5 minutes of my house and see tons or queens, maybe "hundreds" of them.  (one new subdivision probably put in over 50 of them a few years ago).  I could post a thread a mile long of them.  My neighbor has 8 25 to 30 foot queens, probably 12 or 13 total.  I will have to ask when he planted them. (See the first picture I posted, he has several that size, they tower over his house)  Of course they were all planted after 1990, I realize that, but they are hardy enough to expiriment with.  I do agree with you that they are living on borrowed time though.  How much borrowed time is anyone guess.  I like to think the weather we have seen the last 15 years is more the new norm than abnormal.

By the way, if/when my queens ever do die, I am going to move on to mule palms for a couple extra degrees of hardiness.

[Alberto]

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,10:29)

QUOTE

I planted one in the middle of winter last year, then we got down to 23-24F a couple weeks later for the coldest night of the winter and it came through totally unscathed.

That's good to know Jim.... I didn't think they were that hardy.... I guess because the fronds look so lacy they look  to be more "tropical".. whereas something like a washy or a sable looks alot "tougher"

The provenance of the queens is very important.I think most of the palms that are grown in the USA came from tropical Brazil and not from subtropical high altitude of south Brazil. We had a frost in 2001 that burned some of the Washingtonia leaves but did nothing to the native queens of course!

  A nursery owner that knows a lot about our natives told me that he thinks the cold hardiness of ´´our´´queens is near -12`C!

    Alberto.

[NBTX11]

(Alberto @ Oct. 24 2006,23:42)

QUOTE

(BobbyinNY @ Oct. 24 2006,10:29)

QUOTE

I planted one in the middle of winter last year, then we got down to 23-24F a couple weeks later for the coldest night of the winter and it came through totally unscathed.

That's good to know Jim.... I didn't think they were that hardy.... I guess because the fronds look so lacy they look  to be more "tropical".. whereas something like a washy or a sable looks alot "tougher"

The provenance of the queens is very important.I think most of the palms that are grown in the USA came from tropical Brazil and not from subtropical high altitude of south Brazil. We had a frost in 2001 that burned some of the Washingtonia leaves but did nothing to the native queens of course!

  A nursery owner that knows a lot about our natives told me that he thinks the cold hardiness of ´´our´´queens is near -12`C!

    Alberto.

Alberto, are those the so called hardy "silver" queens?

[Walt]

I've lost queen palms only one time, and that was from the radiational freeze (my coldest ever in nine winters) of January 5, 2001. My low that moring was 22 degrees with heavy frost.  The duration below 32 degrees was around 12 hours.

However, the queen palms I lost were untrunked and maybe only 6 feet tall overall, not much larger than a one gallon size, maybe two gallon at best. These queens were in the ground.

Some larger queens I had, maybe just, but not quite, starting a trunk sufffered foliage damage but recovered nicely.

Even larger trunked queens, say with 8 feet of trunk were totally unmarked (no foliage damage).

Two factors accounted for this: One, the largest queens, due to just being heavier/thicker (leaves, petioles, etc.) could take more cold before damaging.

Two, the taller queens (the leaves) were exposed to less cold due to air stratifiction (air getting warmer each foot above the ground).

Note: This past 2/14/06 we had a bad radiational freeze here in central Florida (my second worst of in nine winters) and a local weather tower recorded a 14 degree temperature difference between 2 feet above ground and 30 feet above ground, i.e., it was 14 degrees warmer at 30 feet above the ground.

However, factor number two above wouldn't apply during an advective (windy) freeze event.

The upshot is, all other things being equal, the larger the palm, the more cold and duration of cold it can take.

With regard to potted palms, the danger there is freezing of the roots, even if the foliage can take it. In nature, roots, being deep in the soil, where it's always warmer, never see the same cold as the tops do.

[Alberto]

(syersj @ Oct. 24 2006,23:45)

QUOTE

    Alberto.

Alberto, are those the so called hardy "silver" queens?

[SunnyFl]

(Walt @ Oct. 25 2006,17:09)

QUOTE

I've lost queen palms only one time, and that was from the radiational freeze (my coldest ever in nine winters) of January 5, 2001. My low that moring was 22 degrees with heavy frost.  The duration below 32 degrees was around 12 hours.

Good grief, Walt!  Temps like that would kill everything in my yard - the frost alone would be enough to do it!

I wonder if the queens in San Antonio would be helped by Dynamite fertilizer before the cold temps set in - like the experiment that Dave was doing in Orlando.

[Walt]

SunnyFl: I think the theory is, that a palm loading up on potassium will gain a very small degree of extra cold (freeze) protection, due to an anti-freeze effect the potassium salts give the palm cells.

The U of F says, all other things being equal, a well fertilized, healthy palm will fare better, degree for degree, than a less healthy palm. However, I haven't seen any study by the U of F et al stating just how much additional freeze tolerance a given palm would have that was given extra potassium going into winter. Anecdotally, I've heard maybe an extra degree.

While one degree isn't much, that could make all the difference in certain instances.

I always fertilize my palms (last feeding of the year) in November. I want every advantage I can get.

[iamjv]

Been growing queens here in San Antonio for the past 6 years.  My largest one has seen 17F with little burning up near the house.  Some of the oldest queens in town are at an old burger king near 410 and Jackson Keller and I believe they've been in the ground for about 12 years.  There are only two left from the original 5 that went in and they aren't nearly as large as they should be for that age but that is due to the lack of care.

The probability of survival not only deals with the absolute lowest temperature encountered but also the moisture content and duration of the freeze.  In the past 16 years, we haven't had a long and/or wet freeze here.  When we do, most if not all of the queens will perish.

Jv

[NBTX11]

A lot of the queens around here look sad, but I think that is due to lack of care rather than cold, as we haven't had any serious cold the last 15 years.  Some restaurants stick them on their property and just forget about them, they never get watered or fertilized, and we can get serious droughts here.

[Alicehunter2000]

Queens are the new big thing here in the last few years. Hundreds of them are being planted in the Panama City and surrounding areas. It will be interesting to see if they survive a cold winter here. I have been reluctant to put any in but think next summer I might. W. Robusta's are everywhere here, they are well established with many old specimens that have withstood some very cold winters. I have seen them recover from 100% frond burn and grow back healthy the following summer. Same goes for Canaries .......... seen them burn super badly only to recover quickly in the summer.

David

[NBTX11]

I say go for it, but I'm an optomist.  Just realize that if and when that real bad winter ever comes, they might be toast.  That doesn't bother me though, that might be another 10-15 years, who knows.  Canaries should be totally hardy for the FL panhandle.  There are a lot of older ones around here that made it through the 80s freezes and are still living today.