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Kostas

New Archontophoenix alexandrae!

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Kostas

Thank you very much Tyrone,didnt knew that! :)

So,after all,what do you think mine is?Have you noticed or could you maybe check a sure A. alexandrae for the tiny ramenta i found on mine?

Thank you very much in advance! :)

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Guest LeftCoastAngler

A little better with the sun trying to come out... Rather gloomy this morning, like it's trying to rain...

CIMG4766.jpg

CIMG4767.jpg

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Kostas

Thank you very much LCA! :)

The amount of silvery color i see on your palm is exactly the amount mine have! :) So after all,A. cunninghamiana arent completely rid of silvery scales,just have too few to call them silvery in normal lighting conditions :) Are you sure its a pure A. cunninghamiana?

I see this is one of your bigger A. cunninghamiana with completely pinnate leaves.Do your smaller ones,like the first one you showed me with bifid leaves that just started going pinnate,posses the ramenta too or do they appear latter,somewhen between the bifid stage and and the completely pinnate one?

Thank you very much in advance! :)

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Guest LeftCoastAngler

completely pinnate one.

But I honestly haven't been paying attention... :)

~LCA.

Another thing to note... Here's a purpurea:

CIMG4781.jpg

and the cunninghamiana:

CIMG4780.jpg

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Pivi

Kostas, i've looked at your pictures now with flash.

It's not cunnighamiana for sure. It doesn't have ramenta. At least i don't see it.

On the other hand, i see silver undersided...

Your palm is not the same as LeftCoastAngler's. He has cunnighamiana-

Edited by Pivi

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Guest LeftCoastAngler

I just noticed the time stamp thing on here's off by a few hours...

Management might want to take a look at that...

~LCA.

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Kostas

Thank you very much for your replys! :)

Thanks for the photos LCA! :) You have been of great help with your photos :) Does your small A. cunninghamiana with bifid leaves have visible ramenta too?If not,that would be the only possibility mine to be a A. cunninghamiana...Could you please check that for me? :)

Thank you for taking the time to look at my pictures Pivi :)

Yes,there arent any visible with ''naked eye'' i would say,ramenta but what i dont know is wether these exist from seedling stage or if they develop latter in life.Have you maybe got any A. cunninghamiana babies?Do they have ramenta?

There does is some silver on the leaf undersides,as seen in the photos,but its little,not a good covering of the undersides.With correct lighting,they do are silvery but other times,you can pass them as green...Also,doesnt the A. cunninghamiana leaf underside in LCA's photo taken with flash appear silvery too?I mean,this characteristic is still not completely clear to me as to if my palms posses it or not... :unsure: I am happy to hear you think they are silver though :)

I know he has cunninghamiana,what i dont know for sure is what i have...

Thank you very much in advance!

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Guest LeftCoastAngler

No. The smaller ones don't have any ramenta. The ramenta isn't noticable until the first pinnate leaf.

Your almost there. :) The next set on yours ought to be pinnate. Right? I guess you won't know 'FOR SURE' until then. ?

~LCA.

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Kostas

Thank you very much LCA! :)

You mean no grouped leaflets at all?Then my bigger one that is opening a spear right now,is one more leaf away and the other one,1 and a half :) I guess it will be 1-2 months till we know ''FOR SURE'' then! :lol: I cannot say i am inclined to any id yet,i am inclined to A. alexandrae because of somewhat silvery appearance of the undersides and reliability of Toby but on the other hand i am also inclined to cunninghamiana due to crownshaft and petiole scale color(especially of the left one)and also because of the tiny ramenta i found after very close inspection...So still can be either in my opinion...To be honest though,i would prefer that it doesnt develop any ramenta as the silver on its undersides is enough tofor it to be a little suspicious if it does...Thank you very much for your help and patience with me :)

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Pivi

Kostas, i'll have a look tomorrow to see if my young cunnighamianas have ramenta and i'll take pictures for you.

They'll be a year old in a month.

I have them from two sources. One if from Dave (i don't know if it's a hybrid) and the other is from New Zealand..

The best effect you'll have if you take a picture (without the hand light) in night with flash.

Try holding a light just to focus your camera if you don't have AF assist lamp on your camera, but before you shoot a pictures turn off the light and use just flash from your camera.

Edit:

Here are the ones i could take right now. It's from Dave (CA). Seedlings are on their 3rd leaf, and this one is 7 months old.

Like you can see even the young ones have ramenta. At least i see it. :D

Click on pictures to see them in full size

th_IMG_4035.jpg th_IMG_4036.jpg th_IMG_4038.jpg

Edited by Pivi

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Davidl

Looks like A.cunninghamiana to me.

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Kostas

Thank you very much for the advise and photos Pivi! :)

I will try that tomorrow :) My camera does have AF assist light but empties the batteries very quickly and so i always have it off...I guess i was a little lazy to turn it on... :lol:

Beautyfull seedlings you have! :) Happy growing them! :)

I do can see the ramenta on your palms :) Its the small black lines on the leaf,right?They are small but noticable enough.What i found on mine were smaller and less in number and not string like but round and very light brown.So its another thing i guess... :unsure: Will check again...

Thank you very much David for your opinion! :)

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Pivi

Kostas, if you ask me all this brown dots-stripes are young ramenta (i just marked some of them) ... :rolleyes:

post-1237-1234486237_thumb.jpg

Edited by Pivi

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Kostas

Thank you very much Pivi! :) I thought the same!

I dont think mine has anything that looks like that...So,chances should be slim for them to be A. cunninghamiana if they dont have even these ''traces'' of ramenta...

All in all,they most probably are just what they should be,Archontophoenix alexandrae :) I am waiting Toby's opinion on that too,this Sunday,when he will check his plants,as being much more experienced and knowledgable than i am,i am sure the next leaves of my palms will confirm his id :)

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Guest LeftCoastAngler

They probably ARE just what you ordered. :)

That's great.

~LCA.

Edited by LeftCoastAngler

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Kostas

Thank you very much both of you for your replys! :)

Thank you very much for this link Tyrone,i hadnt found it while searching :) A hybrid does is a possibility too and one i would like to completely rule out...Is there any way to do that?What characterictics would an A. alexandrae X cunninghamiana show?Both whitish undersides and ramenta?Or could it be more tricky to id as a hybrid?I would appreciate any feedback on this :)

Thanks LCA! :) Most probably thats what they are!

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ruskinPalms

I'm voting cunninghamiana or a hybrid of some sort - they are not pure alexes... which is a good thing because alexes just don't care for higher latitude, mediterranean climates no matter how cold you get every 20 years. My alexes have absolutely zero scaliness anywhere on their petioles though mine have a few feet of trunk now and got pretty fried by the last freezes we had here. By the way, my avatar is a shot with flash of one of my alexes when it was very young from a couple years ago. The silver jumps out. Went out and felt my alexes today and the undersides are almost powdery feeling.

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ruskinPalms

Pictures are always good...Taken without flash during day.... Please disregard freeze damage :(

Underside of an alex:

post-228-1234629173_thumb.jpg

Emerging spear of an alex:

post-228-1234629243_thumb.jpg

Emerging spear of a rather young bangalow:

post-228-1234629190_thumb.jpg

Ramenta on a bangalow:

post-228-1234629213_thumb.jpg

Another shot a little farther out of bangalow:

post-228-1234629224_thumb.jpg

Bangalow fuzz (emerging spear):

post-228-1234629234_thumb.jpg

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Pivi

This is my alexandrae.

Picture taken at night with flash.

Mine also don't have scaliness on petioles.

post-1237-1234629559_thumb.jpg

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ruskinPalms

Hey Pivi, maybe I'm wrong about the mediterranean thing - your alex looks great!

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Pivi

No, you're not wrong.

It does get some damage during winter. This picture is taken before last winter, 3-4 months after it was planted outside (bought and broght from greenhouse).

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Kostas

Thank you very much for the insight Bill and Pivi! :) I think your point Bill is the most easily seen and definitive one at my palms,thank you very much! :)

So,after this new clues,my palms are most probably Archontophoenix cunninghamiana or a hybrid,no chance for A. alexandrae...Its amazing how fast one can change his opininon when he really has no clue what a species should look like :unsure:

Mine have nowhere the white intensity of your A. alexandrae...In fact,mine have the same color as a bangalow which if you photograph with flash at night,does take a whitish look...As i had said earlier,the color of mine was the same with a flash bangalow shot at night,showing faint silverish color...A. alexandrae's white is solid and you cant miss it! :)

How can we rule out or confirm the hybrid chance?

Pivi,yours should not damage this winter,i would attribute any damage last year to acclimation from greenhouse conditions...You dont get any real lows from what your signatures says :)

Beautyfull Archontophoenix by the way,both of you! :) Alexandrae rock! :drool: Bangalows rock too in general color(darker)and in inflorescences :drool:

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Pivi

Yes Kostas, last 2-3 winters were not cold (at least not on the island where i live) like the signature says.

But the problem can be low temperatures (2-3°c) for more days in a row.

So it did get some damage even this winter when we had only one time below zero (-0.2°C).

Cunnighamiana is definitely more cold tolerant, as i have one planted 4-5 meters from alexandrae, but it's leaves are less resistant to wind.

Edited by Pivi

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Kostas

Still you shouldnt be getting any damage Pivi on your A. alexandrae...I grew A. alexandrae from seed a few years ago(gave away most and the 2 i kept died,1st one of cold(while the other was little damaged(-3C)) and the 2nd of drought and extreem cold tempratures(-6C suffice? :lol: ) that i hadnt realized that we had at that period :blink::( )and while i lost 1 at -3C,my other one went almost perfect through these tempratures :) I also had some low tempratures for days and they did fine...So maybe yours need some more time acclimating?I think you should not have any damage in the coming years if you stay -2C and above :)

Just an update regarding the id of my palms,they do are Archontophoenix alexandrae as ordered as Toby,who kindly offered to check both the species at his nursery, confirmed on the ID :) Thank you very much Toby for offering to do that! :)

Unfortunately,the chance of being hybrids cannot be totally rulled out for now and it seems that only time will tell on that...

Len,2.5/3 to date :lol: I hope to bring it up in the coming weeks! :)

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MattyB

I still think Kostas has A. maxima. From the Maxima I've seen they can have ramenta, but so very very tiny that you have to look very closely or you'll miss them. Not anything like cunninghamiana or purpurea. The silver on Maxima is less pronounced too. Also, the redish hues in the new leaf are like a A. maxima. A. maxima has the next most fuzz on the petioles and crownshaft after A. cunninghamiana too. This is just what I've noticed from the plants I've seen labled around here.

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Davidl

I do not believe that is A.alexandrae but a maxima maybe. I have grown hundreds of A.alexandrae and cunnighamiana's but only one maxima so I can say with almost certainty that is not Alexandrae.

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Pivi
Still you shouldnt be getting any damage Pivi on your A. alexandrae...I grew A. alexandrae from seed a few years ago(gave away most and the 2 i kept died,1st one of cold(while the other was little damaged(-3C)) and the 2nd of drought and extreem cold tempratures(-6C suffice? :lol: ) that i hadnt realized that we had at that period :blink::( )and while i lost 1 at -3C,my other one went almost perfect through these tempratures :) I also had some low tempratures for days and they did fine...So maybe yours need some more time acclimating?I think you should not have any damage in the coming years if you stay -2C and above :)

Just an update regarding the id of my palms,they do are Archontophoenix alexandrae as ordered as Toby,who kindly offered to check both the species at his nursery, confirmed on the ID :) Thank you very much Toby for offering to do that! :)

Unfortunately,the chance of being hybrids cannot be totally rulled out for now and it seems that only time will tell on that...

Len,2.5/3 to date :lol: I hope to bring it up in the coming weeks! :)

Kostas, temperatures are taken at 1.5-2 meters height. Alexandrae is still young (i thing about 1.5 meters overall) so the lower you go, the lower are temperatures.

Frost can form even if temperatures are around zero, and can damage alexandrea leaves very easily.

I did get some leaf burn this winter, when temperature went down just once below zero, to -0.2°C.

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Davidl

Pivi I was talking about the original post not yours. Sorry I didn't clarify that.

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Kostas

Thank you very much for your replys! :)

According to Toby,there is no chance of a missid,there was just a chance of a mix up with the A. cunninghamiana he has but that has been eliminated due to the very different looks of them when he saw them both from close at his nursery.So,mine should be Archontophoenix alexandrae or a hybrid containing alexandrae,the chances for the second of which i would like to eliminate the soonest possible... :unsure:

Matty,

A. maxima would be a good guess but mine have long petioles(due to shade of course) which i dont think would become very short to non-existant.Also,A. maxima is rarer than A. alexandrae so there arent much chances one would sell them for something else than they are... :) And according to Tyrone,all Archontophoenix species can have new red leaves :) Tim(realarch) was kind enough to send me a photo of a new red leaf Archontophoenix alexandrae and it was a great sight! :drool:

David,

These are grown in much more shade than one would grow his Archontophoenix in a favourable climate.So,maybe the differences stem from that fact,too much shade :) I think(and hope) that once they grow in more sun,the new leaves will be different and the crownshaft will take the correct color.

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Kostas

Pivi,

Mine were even smaller seedlings,just 3-4 leafers from seed :) I know that frost can form early and mine surely had seen it :) -0,2C is a temprature i dont even care about when i see it :mrlooney: Its below -2C that starts the worries for damage for me :)

Something i would like some feedback on is why the right one has a yellow-green colored crownshaft and the left one a darker green colored one.What would cause that difference in Archontophoenix of the same species?I searched on the net and found photos of young shade grown alexandrae with dark colored crownshafts and also of ones with yellow-green but why is this difference?Different population?Conditions?Both have a faint powdery white look on them though which is a good sign for alexandrae :)

Also,what could i look for to determine a hybrid in a young alex?

Thank you very much in advance! :)

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Pivi

Kostas, you're telling me that your alexandrae seedlings were outside during temperatures of -0.2°C, during frost, and didn't have any damaga on the leaves?

Are you sure they were alexandrae? :D

I can tell you that low temperatures and frost will for sure create some leaf damage on alexandrae. I'm not talking about killing it, but forming some leaf burn.

Regarding your hybrid question. Like i told you, you must take few pictures with you camera using flash at night with no handlight.

When we see the color of the undersides we'll be able to tell if it's alexandrae or not.

I wouldn't say archontophoenix maxima is rare (don't know if it's rarer than alexandrae but it doesn't matter). I have about 20 seedlings 3-4 leaves and i will take some pictures for you.

Edited by Pivi

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Tyrone

Archontophoenix alexandrae is a very variable species, with all different forms which come from different areas, and they vary in trunk size etc, to seed shape and size. All are white underneath though. A cunninghamiana is also a variable species depending on origin with robust ones and not so robust ones, some with thick leathery leaves some with thinner leaflets, but none with white under the leaflets.

When I get some time I'll post pics of all the species, as I have them all.

Archontophoenix maxima is a very rare species in the wild and only occurs in a few small patches on the Atherton Tablelands in North Queensland. Archontophoenix alexandrae occurs from Gladstone right up into Cape York Peninsula, so that's a couple of thousand km range. I have grown hundreds of A maxima and they all have very white leaflets underneath. My seed came from the Atherton Tablelands. Also the petioles do not resemble A cunninghamiana at all, with closer resemblance to A alexandrae. When they are young they have long petioles, but when older and sunhardened the petioles shorten up quite a bit, but that is actually true of all of the Archontophoenix anyway.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Kostas

Thank you very much both of you for your replys :)

I am 100% sure they were A. alexandrae Pivi! :) Bought as and such and showed all the alexandrae characters at ther correct intensity,being grown in a very bright situation with partial day sun from seedlings :) Very intense white and yellow tiny crownshaft! No damage at -2C and very minimal at -3C.Only bad was that the first winter leaf was always a little ruffled :lol: All the leafs of the season normal though and i guess they would stop doing that after a few winters :)

I will try to take the pictures you ask for today :)

Thanks,looking forward to the A. maxima pictures :) They will at the very least be interesting to see maxima babies! :)

Thank you very much for the habitat info Tyrone! :) Very interesting!

So alexandrae variation includes both light and dark colored crownshaft individuals,right?Or can even the same population have variation on the crownshaft color?

Thank you very much in advance! :)

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sonoranfans

I have 10 alexandra, 4 maxima and 2 purpurea in the shadehouse that are into their 3rd pinnate fronds or so. I also have a larger cunninghamiana in the ground that is 4' tall with 3" thick trunk. The cunninghamiana(hairy, deep green, w/ramenta) and purpurea(light green leaflets) are easy to tell from the others. The only one that looks fuzzy about the petioles is the cunninghamiana. The alexandre and maxima are pretty close, the maxima have more slender leaflets, longer petioles and grow more slowly, at least at this stage. I have also noted that the maxima leaflets seem to be more dry tolerant than the alexes or purpurea(most sensitive). The cunninghamiana is much larger so a dry tolerance comparison is invalid.

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Pivi
I am 100% sure they were A. alexandrae Pivi! :) Bought as and such and showed all the alexandrae characters at ther correct intensity,being grown in a very bright situation with partial day sun from seedlings :) Very intense white and yellow tiny crownshaft! No damage at -2C and very minimal at -3C.Only bad was that the first winter leaf was always a little ruffled :lol: All the leafs of the season normal though and i guess they would stop doing that after a few winters :)

Kostas, then you had SUPERMAN Archontophoenix Alexandrae if none damage occured on leaves.

Have a look at this link http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...p;hl=alexandrae

Freeze damaga data for archontophoenix alexandrae

btw. how did you loose them?

Edited by Pivi

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Pivi

Here are the pics of maxima

post-1237-1234975005_thumb.jpg

post-1237-1234975015_thumb.jpg

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Pivi

Fuzz on the petioles

post-1237-1234975085_thumb.jpg

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Pivi

Silvery undersides

post-1237-1234975121_thumb.jpg

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