Bo's Orange Crush

[BigFrond]

I had 75% gemination rate, basically about 75 seedlings. Well, after a little over a year, I have about 6 left. These guys dropped like flies at the two-leaf stage. The soil medium is very light. I have some in heavier medium and the result is the same. What a bummer! I just about given up on them. The solution is to buy a few five gallons and avoid the pesky seedling stage because these guys are slow.

Edited January 7, 2009 by BigFrond

[Palm Guy]

No worries! I bought about 20 seeds from RPS and only had a couple germ. I'm left with one. From what I rem, Bo said to keep them on the dry side. I think that air movement is equally important. I can't count how many seedlings I've lost to lack of airflow. Stem rots, root rots, damping off...the whole works! Just keep trying. Seedlings should be fed also after about 2-4 months depending on how large the seed is. Use very low rates however. If you can get a nice seaweed based foliar fert it should work wonders for any micronutrient deficiencies. Should also help with preventing fungal diseases. I'm goin to try it myself the next growing season.

good luck!

[bgl]

BigFrond,

Sorry to hear that you lost so many. I am myself in a similar situation because I never grew any of them from seed before, and I am also finding out that they are VERY touchy when small. I have lost several hundred seedlings, in all likelihood because of soil that was too wet and too slow draining. And I have already repotted them twice, trying to get them into a drier and lighter mix! We'll keep trying!

Bo-Göran

[rthink]

I just want to share the same experience with this species. I've tried several ways to keep them alive. Only 20 seedlings from 100 survive at the moment. So far I think the best way is to pot them in small pots with light mix and constant high humitidy but very well drained soil.

Even though they're alive, they don't look healthy for me so my method may still not be perfect for them.

[BigFrond]

BigFrond,

Sorry to hear that you lost so many. I am myself in a similar situation because I never grew any of them from seed before, and I am also finding out that they are VERY touchy when small. I have lost several hundred seedlings, in all likelihood because of soil that was too wet and too slow draining. And I have already repotted them twice, trying to get them into a drier and lighter mix! We'll keep trying!

Bo-Göran

Well, I feel better now. Even the OC master is losing these little, pesky guys. BTW, I put two of these guys outside under a tree and they're doing okay. Maybe I will move the rest outside for the air circulation. I was afraid they might sign off in the winter cold but they're still around.

Edited January 7, 2009 by BigFrond

[LJG]

Bo, or anyone else, due you ever use Subdue? Do you think it is just the nature of the plant or could it be easily prone to Phytophthora and Pythium spp?

[bgl]

Len,

I have no idea, and I have never tried Subdue. I realize that with different climates there may be different challenges in keeping these seedlings alive. However, strictly from my own personal point of view and with the environment I live in, I am 100% convinced the solution to a healthy and vigorous seedling has to do with the soilmix. Needless to say, if a seedling isn't doing well, then it may be susceptible to other problems as well, but I believe that if I solve the soil mystery, then that's the key to a healthy plant. Also, once they get up to a 2G size, or so, I'm confident they are less sensitive.

Bo-Göran

[LJG]

Yeah, I guess in HI the issue is not the same as it is here. I started using Subdue, mostly in winter, and have cut my death rates down at least 75% on my palm and tropical seedlings.

[John in Andalucia]

I had similar results. Strange how, of all the small seedlings I bought from Hawaii, these little one leafers stayed strong and green whilst many others I had started to die back, then as soon as they started pushing a second leaf, the first leaves immediately began to die back. Within just a few moths, I lost all 20 seedlings. Dypsis prestoniana on the other hand, that is a very feisty little seedling. Not much bigger than pilulifera at the same stage, but just keeps on growing! I would put sp. Orange Crush on the "buy bigger" list, for sure.

[Jeff Searle]

Yeah, I guess in HI the issue is not the same as it is here. I started using Subdue, mostly in winter, and have cut my death rates down at least 75% on my palm and tropical seedlings.

Subdue is one of the best fungicides on the market and has been around for several years.

Jeff

[junglegalfla]

Bo,

I lost all mine from you too. I believe I remember Mike Evans saying he lost his too although I'm not sure his seed came from you. Mine was lost to fungus. I also lost a 1 gal last year adding more to my misery. One week if was a beautiful robust seedling, the next week.....dead as a doornail.

[Mark_NoVA]

I feel better about my slow-growing little guys now...I received 11 tiny 1-split-leaved seedlings from Hawaii 9-10 months ago, traded one away. The other 10 have been very slow-growing but are still alive, 6 with 3 leaves and 4 with 2 leaves. They received a few treatments of seaweed water during that time. Kept them in shade in the warm weather, and they have been sitting in an East-facing window since then. (One pot of three was in the garage that gets down to 40F under a grow light, where they weren't doing as well, and so got moved.)

[MattyB]

I had an interesting experience with these guys that might help. I got fresh seed from Bo's and sowed them in a small community pot with a very light mix and kept it in my greenhouse. After about 4 months I had 0% germination rate while hearing of successful germination after a few months from all of you guys. 6 months passed and nothing. I concluded that my mix was too light because I noticed that it was drying out very easily and therefore did not have enough moisture to germinate the seeds. From experience I learned not to throw any old seeds away so there the community pot sat. About one year later, POP, they all germinated. Maybe not all but they all came up at the same time. My little two leafers are now about 1 year old and I've lost none. Whenever I go to water that community pot it's very dry and I'm surprised they haven't dessicated. So sounds like once you get them to germinate you've gotta keep them on the dry side. Just stumbled upon this by accident. Hope that helps.

[bgl]

Matt,

That's very useful info and confirms my suspicion. Will be repotting all mine AGAIN into a very light and dry mix. And it doesn't help that we had about 20 inches of rain the last 2 weeks or so...!

Bo-Göran

[MattyB]

Bo, in you're climate, with your regular rain, mild temps and steady humidity you could grow them in straight perlite I bet.

[bgl]

Matt,

I'm going to experiment with a few different mixes, and keep track of which is which, so that I'll have a better idea in the future how to get these little guys past the tricky seedling stage!

Bo-Göran

[mike in kurtistown]

I live about 20 minutes away from Bo, so have a similar climate. My seedlings are fully exposed to local conditions. I planted 50 seeds, had about 20 germinate and about 6 now survive. But for me, the problem has been insect predation. My seedlings were almost totally destroyed by in late summer a type of slug-like caterpillar found around here. These caterpillars really like rare and valuable palm seedlings, like Tahinas, Manicarias,etc.

[gsn]

Just an observation as I am not growing these, but damping off seems to be a widespread problem with this species at an early age,no matter where grown,or what climate,cultural conditions, if this topic is any indication.

Bo,

The large seeding ones you have planted at your house were purchased from someone at a larger size correct?

Did this grower experience the same problems at an early stage? Can you ask him what the secret is when these are small seedlings?

Someone out there has to know the secret to getting these past the seedling stage,and to a larger 3 gallon or more size, if they are willing to share?

Edited January 7, 2009 by gsn

[bgl]

Scott,

Good point. I bought mine from a few different sources, including one nursery that went out of business a few years ago. But I also bought quite a few from Floribunda. I'll check with Jeff Marcus next time I talk with him.

Bo-Göran

[elHoagie]

I obtained about 30 or 40 seeds in Oct 2007, I think from the same batch Matty's came from. Every seed germinated within a month or so, and I potted all of the seedlings into a single community bucket. They have been very slow, and last time I checked a few of them had died, but most were still growing well. I haven't done anything special with these, they're in my standard mix of maybe 3 parts potting soil and 1 part perlite. They're in my greenhouse and get quite a bit of water, the soil never dries out at all. Also, they're tucked in a corner that doesn't get much air flow...

[redant]

Wow, I thought it was just me. My experience is just like bigfronds. 3 left out of 100 seeds and they don't look all that great.

[fastfeat]

I don't have any of these seeds or plants, but the percentage of failure, for keen plant people, seems downright extraordinary to me as an outside observer.

I'm wondering if there is a necessary mycorrizal relationship that is not being met?

Just a guess...

[Tyrone]

I bought 20 seeds from RPS put into a community pot and had 4 come up. I then put the com pot into a clear plastic bag in my aquarium with lights etc for maybe 6-8 months very rarely watering it, so the air inside the bag was moist, but the soil was reasonably dry. During that period a fifth came up. I've since taken it out of the bag and have it sitting on the floor of my hothouse. They're OK, but they're not what I call thriving. They're sitting in a tray that gets them off the ground and they get fine mists every day, but even then they may be too moist. I may go and place them near the door where they'll get cooler drier breezes from outside, rather than the hot damp humidity they're getting now.

Dypsis prestoniana does look similar to orange crush, and seems easier, but I did rot a few after putting them into single pots, but they are undergoing the same general treatment as my orange crush's. Out of 100 seed I got about 75 to come up. I've got maybe high 60's now.

But they're not the hardest thing to grow. That title for me seems to be for Dypsis bejofo.

Best regards

[tikitiki]

Finally Im doing something just like the pros. I managed to kill all mine at the two leaf stage as well.

[Mike4284m]

Maybe we should form a support group.

I thought I was the only one that was having issues. I had 12/100 pop and they all slowly passed away at the 2 leaf stage. The remainder of the seeds rotted out so there was no point in keeping them around longer.

[MattyB]

I obtained about 30 or 40 seeds in Oct 2007, I think from the same batch Matty's came from. Every seed germinated within a month or so, and I potted all of the seedlings into a single community bucket. They have been very slow, and last time I checked a few of them had died, but most were still growing well. I haven't done anything special with these, they're in my standard mix of maybe 3 parts potting soil and 1 part perlite. They're in my greenhouse and get quite a bit of water, the soil never dries out at all. Also, they're tucked in a corner that doesn't get much air flow...

Well la ti freakin' da!! Aren't you special?

Just kidding Jack. You are correct, half of my seeds came from you, via Dean, from your trip, and the other half came from my own collecting when Paul and I visited Bo about a month later. That's funny that the same seed batch germinated in 1 month for you and 1 year for me. You are good brother.

[elHoagie]

I obtained about 30 or 40 seeds in Oct 2007, I think from the same batch Matty's came from. Every seed germinated within a month or so, and I potted all of the seedlings into a single community bucket. They have been very slow, and last time I checked a few of them had died, but most were still growing well. I haven't done anything special with these, they're in my standard mix of maybe 3 parts potting soil and 1 part perlite. They're in my greenhouse and get quite a bit of water, the soil never dries out at all. Also, they're tucked in a corner that doesn't get much air flow...

Well la ti freakin' da!! Aren't you special?

Just kidding Jack. You are correct, half of my seeds came from you, via Dean, from your trip, and the other half came from my own collecting when Paul and I visited Bo about a month later. That's funny that the same seed batch germinated in 1 month for you and 1 year for me. You are good brother.

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk . I just wanted to add my two cents that wet soil doesn't always mean death (at least not yet in my case). As far as the germination, it's all about having bottom heat at 32C. Also, mine were probably on the bottom heat getting started while yours were drying out at Dean's place...

[BS Man about Palms]

Someone should talk to Jerry or Dan Andersen. Either they've had good luck, or gone thru a lot of seeds. I bought several 1 gals from them, and while not fast, they are doin OK. I've noticed/decided to both A.) keep them dry, B.) wait till they have ALOT of roots showing, before potting them up, I've got 2 into 3 gal size now.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Add me to the list of failures. I couldn't even get them to germinate. Junglegal gave me about 20 seeds last year and not one germinated. After reading all the comments, I probably had them in too wet of a mix.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi All,

Dypsis pilulifera just likes a well drained mix, and just try not to over water them as seedlings just let them do there own thing and they will be Fine, I have grown quite a few thousand of these and never really had any problems with them besides them being so slowwww..! In the tropics they will take “around” 10 years to form a trunk the subtropics 12 to 14 depending on growing conditions, you could shorten this time by placing the seedling in the ground as soon as possible.

I find that with certain Dypsis sp that a few people have problems with them around this second leaf stage, I’m not sure exactly what this is…? I have found with some of these smaller Dypsis species that unless I move them into a little more light and air movement on their 3 and 4 leaves they will just sit there, but moving them really gets them going, maybe this might work for some of these, but I have grown these in all light conditions even in deep shade where I had to hold a few 1000 that I could not use at the time and they were still fine, on the other hand I placed some of these as 3” tubes into the full sun in the mulch and there still alive to day, 10 and 15 in one hole and never watered..! You might find it hard to believe but it’s true.

Also we only water the nursery 2 to 3 times a week depending on the time of year, so this might be why I have not seen this problem as well.

There just not going to grow like Dypsis pembana sorry guy’s, and they will take lots of water just have a very well drained mix.

Clayton.

[ariscott]

You have a few of these, you said.. Clayton??

Regards, Ari

[tikitiki]

So Bo, When will there be more seeds? I would like another shot. Put me on the list

Tom

[MattyB]

Someone should talk to Jerry or Dan Andersen. Either they've had good luck, or gone thru a lot of seeds. I bought several 1 gals from them, and while not fast, they are doin OK. I've noticed/decided to both A.) keep them dry, B.) wait till they have ALOT of roots showing, before potting them up, I've got 2 into 3 gal size now.

And it's not like Jerry uses a light mix either. I got one of these from Jerry several years ago that was in his usual heavy muck soil and it's done great!

[bgl]

Tom,

Sorry to disappoint but for the time being I'm out of the seed business (at least when it comes to shipping them off island). Even with perfectly clean seeds I found out that it's a major hassle if you want to do everything by the book (inspections by both the State of Hawaii AND the USDA). Too time consuming for me right now. Too many other commitments, and as much as I would like to, can't do everything!

Bo-Göran

[bgl]

Clayton,

Thanks a lot for the detailed info. Meant to post this sooner, but have been outside most of the day. Anyway, here's one of mine. This one was planted in December 2002 from a 1G pot. I'm sure it was no more than 2 years old at the time, which means it's 8 years old now (since germination). And, as can be seen, it started forming a trunk recently (a couple of months ago I guess).

Bo-Göran

[BS Man about Palms]

Someone should talk to Jerry or Dan Andersen. Either they've had good luck, or gone thru a lot of seeds. I bought several 1 gals from them, and while not fast, they are doin OK. I've noticed/decided to both A.) keep them dry, B.) wait till they have ALOT of roots showing, before potting them up, I've got 2 into 3 gal size now.

And it's not like Jerry uses a light mix either. I got one of these from Jerry several years ago that was in his usual heavy muck soil and it's done great!

Thats what I thought too, Matt. The only thing I can think is its REALLY hot and Humid in that upper greenhouse, and thats where most stayed until large enough to pot up.

[ariscott]

I can do REALLY hot and humid!!! Now, if only I can find some seeds...

Regards, Ari

[Utopia Palms]

Clayton,

Thanks a lot for the detailed info. Meant to post this sooner, but have been outside most of the day. Anyway, here's one of mine. This one was planted in December 2002 from a 1G pot. I'm sure it was no more than 2 years old at the time, which means it's 8 years old now (since germination). And, as can be seen, it started forming a trunk recently (a couple of months ago I guess).

Bo-Göran

Hi Bo

Boy they love your climate their Bo, they look perfect…!! You did the right thing by putting those in as 1gal pots straight into the ground to get the best growth out of you palms, so a 1 gal pot is the same as our 6” pot..? Was this an advanced plant in the 1 gal as it can take 16 months to fill a 3” tube longer for us down here just over 2 years some times a little longer, and at least another 2 years to fill a 6” pot and that’s if there really growing well, you can add another 2 years to be a large 8” plant with leaves about 1m high..!

And I did say “Around” 10 years Bo, and like I said if you can get them in the ground as soon as possible and this goes for most of these big Dypsis and some of these Ravenea’s, and give them the chance to form the root system that they require to support them leaving the ground they do this so much faster in the ground, if you look at some of these species they just seem to go down to the bottom of their pots and then almost stop growing like a bonsai, sometimes even the bottom of the pot will start to bow out, where as the same age seedling in the ground at this time will be almost 3 times the size, so the root system “could” be over 6 or 7 times the size of the one made to survive in these small pots, although it might not look small to most people compared to the palm that is growing in them, this is why they grow so much faster in the ground plus they get all the minerals and trace elements and a more stable environment etc in the ground.

Ps I take it that you bought your 1 gal plants from Jeff..? Ask Jeff how long it can take to fill those 1 gal pots with this species, and I would have a guess that those were slower ones that he had left over that took longer to fill their pots as the seed from this species come in and then also stoped for quite a few years, so we all had the same seed around the same time and too much of it!!

So what I’m saying is some of those plants could possibly have been sitting in those 1 gal pots for years, even Jeff might not remember how long they were there?

Anyway you will get the chance to document the growth from your seed this time hey Bo.

And Ari I have some seedling here if you like there just over 12 months old and just starting on their 3 and 4 leaves but they are only small.

All the best,

Clayton.

[Utopia Palms]

Just a note about the name Orange crush,

Here is a photo of Dypsis hovomantsina as you can see it is also very orange even part of the trunk..! As these larger Dypsis start to mature you will see that many of them have this same trait, I have even seen this on one of my Ravenea’s. So there might be a lot of different Orange crushes out there soon….?

Ps it can look a lot brighter than this maybe Jeff or a few of the others that went on the trip to Madagascar might have a better photo, this was one of Philip’s photos.

[BS Man about Palms]

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