Cold Weather Neurosis

[PalmGuyWC]

I'm starting this as a new thread because what I see most in the weather threads is angst. We all complain about the weather, but there is not a damn thing we can do to change the weather. We could change our behavior by not growing tropical plants that we know, deep down, don't have much of a chance growing in our climate. We all grow marginal stuff which we go to great lengths to protect from the cold. If in containers, they can be brought inside, or if outside covered, or heated......at great expense.

If we were all a little more practicle, we wouldn't suffer winter neurosis. We bring it on ourselves.

Dick

[simona]

Concerning me....you're damn right, Dick!

[Tyrone]

True, but I don't want to grow geraniums. Not good for my cranium.

Tyrone

[_Keith]

I'm starting this as a new thread because what I see most in the weather threads is angst. We all complain about the weather, but there is not a damn thing we can do to change the weather. We could change our behavior by not growing tropical plants that we know, deep down, don't have much of a chance growing in our climate. We all grow marginal stuff which we go to great lengths to protect from the cold. If in containers, they can be brought inside, or if outside covered, or heated......at great expense.

If we were all a little more practicle, we wouldn't suffer winter neurosis. We bring it on ourselves.

Dick

But Dick, what fun would that be? I mean being practical, that is.

Kind of like the argument about buying what you need versus buying what you want. If we only bought what we needed, well that would be boring too. I mean we certainly don't "need" palms.

I'll take my impracticality and all the angst that comes with it.

[Kim]

I swear the winters were never this cold before I started growing palms!!

Dick, I primarily grow palms that I am certain will survive in my conditions -- however, the winter can make even these look bad for several months before they grow out of the yellowing or spotting. And freezing temps are not normal where I live, yet the last two winters I've been hit with them. I lost only the most marginal, very young palms, but it's still frustrating. And you're right, there's nothing I can do about the weather, so I talk about it. Is that the definition of a neurosis?

[osideterry]

Some of my angst is based on timing. You dig through 100 years of weather data to come up with an idea of what your winter temps tend to be. Then you buy books and spend time finding the cold tolerance of the palms others are growing locally. Using this info you play it conservatively in your palm purchases, and get a good number of them in the ground. This is followed by 4 years with low temps mostly below average. The year before I planted palms, my winter low was 36F. It's hit at or below 30F every year since.

[epicure3]

I agree. Without the challenge of pushing the envelope, what fun would gardening be. The anticipation of what the weather brings and the fight that we put up to try and compensate for it. The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. Some of the most beautiful palms and plants are more tropical and need to be protected if one is going to grow them. So, yes, there is angst when something that you have been growing for years could go bye-bye in one night. I actually have less angst now than I have in past years since most of my plants survived the freeze of 2007.

[gsn]

I'm starting this as a new thread because what I see most in the weather threads is angst. We all complain about the weather, but there is not a damn thing we can do to change the weather. We could change our behavior by not growing tropical plants that we know, deep down, don't have much of a chance growing in our climate. We all grow marginal stuff which we go to great lengths to protect from the cold. If in containers, they can be brought inside, or if outside covered, or heated......at great expense.

If we were all a little more practicle, we wouldn't suffer winter neurosis. We bring it on ourselves.

Dick

Ray,

Dick has diagnosed your condition and he isn't even a therapist!

Seriously though we don't just bring it on ourselves, the weathermen play a major role in our outlook on winter weather,and how we perceive it. They love to predict the worst case scenarios weeks in advance, making everyone NERVOUS,even non plant people. They relish in glee about what MIGHT happen, knowing full well that what they are predicting might or might not come to fruition. They do this in the guise of informing/protecting the public,but it is really to get them all stirred up and anxious about what MIGHT happen.

Here is an example of what I am talking about

What's funny is that on another site for weather nerds everybody in SoCal is all bummed out that it did not drop below freezing & a reputable meteorologist predicted downtown would hit 32F [i think the last time was in 1949]. Weather geeks wish so much for cold readings that they look everywhere for some frost

As I have said before long range forecasts are mere guesses, they end up being either worse or better than predicted ,in almost all instances. The weather changes on a dime.

Don't make yourself sick worring about what some weatherman says will happen 2 weeks or even a week from now. The best you can do pay attention to the short range forecast, 12 to 24 hours out, and know that even that forecast has a range of varibility, as far as temps are concerned they might be plus or minus 4 or 5 degrees either way! Use your best judgment from there, and either protect, or let mother nature take it's course.

It is winter in North America, it sometimes gets cold in the winter here,duh!

Weather forecasting ,whether people want to admit it or not, is not a science set in stone. If it were, then the NWS, Weather.com, Accuweather,and all the others would have the EXACT same forecast always.

[PalmGuyWC]

To all,

I just thought I'd stur the pot a little. We need a little more lively discussion in here. Of course those who protest the loudest are the most guilty of zone pushing. I do agree though, it does seem we are entering a mini-ice age, at least on the West Coast.

Dick

[happ]

Ironically my main concern is how dry wind effects palms. I eventually let a once beautiful euterpe edulis die even though I watered deeply. Strong winter winds bend archonotophoenix\ roystonea fronds all out of shape. Only shade palms look good in winter, except of-course washingtonia.

But when I see coconut palms looking good, my inclination is to take the challenge. Veitchia is just now coming around after 3 years of so-so growth.

I can't imagine just having safe palms like everybody else. We have a responsibility to expose people to other very interesting palms not normally planted [usually because of water needs].

[PalmGuyWC]

Kim,

I looked up the definition of neurosis, and there are volumes to be said about it. It affects all of us to one degree or another. I suppose if we have to talk about a probem to our friends, there must be something disturbing us or we wouldnt talk about it.

Palm Talk is a great sounding board to let off steam and it comforts us to know there are others with the same condition. I would say anyone trying to grow palms in Alaska has gone over the edge.

I hope you know I'm only kidding.......kinda.

Dick

[amazondk]

I guess the solution for this problem is to move to where cold weather is never a factor. But, that is a lot easier said than done. I never say never, but I would find it difficult to move back to where I would have to worry about what temperature it will be. I do not find it boring not having to worry about temperature. There are a lot of other things to be concerned about on a daily basis the way it is.

dk

[John in Andalucia]

I purchased a couple of 20" Lipstick Palm seedlings from Australia two weeks ago, and you can guess how warm it is over there at the moment. They will spend three weeks in the post, perhaps delayed a few days due to the holidays, and it will be around 48F-50F in my greenhouse overnight for the next eight weeks or more. I will now worry about them endlessly, to a degree. I think worrying is normal and healthy, at least where palms and the cold weather are concerned. Maybe it's good to fret over our palms, as the rationality of existence through experience helps us to face up to life's greater woes. Besides all of that, palms are an addiction, so the fretting is only natural!

[bubba]

This "neurosis"is hand and hand with the edge walking that is necessary to discover that a coconut can be grown in Andalucia.That Sealing Wax can be grown in Palm Beach.It is part of the game we choose to play.It is fun! Good luck with your Sealing Wax in Andalucia!If you can do that a Coconut will be no problem.

[Jim in Los Altos]

When I first started planting "house plants" outside several years ago (bromeliads, philodendrons, anthuriums, etc.) I was told over and over and over again by many plant "experts" that I will have to treat them as annuals. Almost all those plants are still in the ground and doing just fine, thank you very much. It invigorated my interest to try lots of palms that "won't grow here". Years later, through freezing weather and heat spells alike, I'm happy to say that only the most tropical of the tropicals (Clinostigma, Cocos, Areca) didn't make it. But plenty of Dypsis, Chamaedorea, Chambeyronia, Roystonea, Archontophoenix, etc.) are doing fine years later.

Never let anyone tell you it's impossible to grow anything. I think the best plan consists of a landscape with plenty of attractive cold hardy palms as the bone structure leaving plenty of space for whatever you really like and want to try that may or may not survive long term. It's not a tragedy to occasionally lose a plant. For me, the tragedy would be in never having the pleasure of trying in the first place.

[DoomsDave]

I AM NOT NEUROTIC!

Just a little excitable . . . . . .

[ghar41]

When I first started planting "house plants" outside several years ago (bromeliads, philodendrons, anthuriums, etc.) I was told over and over and over again by many plant "experts" that I will have to treat them as annuals. Almost all those plants are still in the ground and doing just fine, thank you very much. It invigorated my interest to try lots of palms that "won't grow here". Years later, through freezing weather and heat spells alike, I'm happy to say that only the most tropical of the tropicals (Clinostigma, Cocos, Areca) didn't make it. But plenty of Dypsis, Chamaedorea, Chambeyronia, Roystonea, Archontophoenix, etc.) are doing fine years later.

Never let anyone tell you it's impossible to grow anything. I think the best plan consists of a landscape with plenty of attractive cold hardy palms as the bone structure leaving plenty of space for whatever you really like and want to try that may or may not survive long term. It's not a tragedy to occasionally lose a plant. For me, the tragedy would be in never having the pleasure of trying in the first place.

Well stated Jim!

There are 3 Queen Palms planted in a gorgeous landscape here in town, that were planted in 1983. The owner said that when she brought them from Orange County and planted them....no one believed they'd survive.

Maybe Dypsis decipiens or Parajubaea coicoides, tvt, sunkha or (many other possibilities)........are the "Queen Palms" of my landscape in 2030.

[Gtlevine]

Were heading for the next ice age so we should grow all the marginal stuff we can right now. I can see Al Gore in 10 years frozen solid with a glazier in his yard claiming it is caused by global warming.

Gary

[Paul The Palm Doctor!]

I agree. Without the challenge of pushing the envelope, what fun would gardening be. The anticipation of what the weather brings and the fight that we put up to try and compensate for it. The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. Some of the most beautiful palms and plants are more tropical and need to be protected if one is going to grow them. So, yes, there is angst when something that you have been growing for years could go bye-bye in one night. I actually have less angst now than I have in past years since most of my plants survived the freeze of 2007.

I don't think that "pushing the envelope", Epi, is essential to being fun for the palm grower (as the 25 acres of palms I planted in Panama look pretty GREAT living in a climate that is perfect for palms and make me feel pretty darned satisfied,) but losing a tender palm in Florida seems more traumatic somehow.

Possibly because it was way more expensive than my Panama palms, or that they all got ruined en masse here, after Hurricane Wilma ripped through my (and everyone else's) yard three years ago. With the economy being what it is this year (and having income cut be 40%,) plus almost getting killed when I was hit by a 40' ft. semi tractor-trailer in September whose driver rear ended me at 50 MPH while I was stopped at a traffic light, I know that I cannot now, nor will be able in these next two or three years, to replant a tender specimen palm, if So Fla. does get a freeze (which I doubt it'll get this particular "winter,) I'll lose "big"and it'lll stay that way for many years, unfortunately.

If we DO get a bad freeze or a summer hurricane, the envelope I pushed will not get pushed again, in quite a while as I will not be able to afford a replacement of the same "out oif traditional range" palm or palms. My landscape might be forever altered towards the more boring, simply because I will NOT be able to afford my luxury spending of the past, when I didn't have to count dollars.

I believe that this is probably an above average, to well above average income group, so replacing a frozen palm (of any size other than a seedling) is more an inconvenience than a hardship, so envelopes can get pushed regularly, almost routinely, but for us average Joes, we just might have to settle on a "boring" yet weather safe landscape, ubtil more discretionary income becomes available.

For me, it's All about dollars and (hmmm) cents, err sense!

Paul

[SunnyFl]

I believe that this is probably an above average, to well above average income group, so replacing a frozen palm (of any size other than a seedling) is more an inconvenience than a hardship, so envelopes can get pushed regularly, almost routinely, but for us average Joes, we just might have to settle on a "boring" yet weather safe landscape, ubtil more discretionary income becomes available.

For me, it's All about dollars and (hmmm) cents, err sense!

Paul

This is true - and I am one of the average Joes (well, Josephines). I couldn't simply replace a large specimen, can't afford the biggies in the first place. That's why I try to look for smaller specimens at a good price. And keep too many of my favorites in pots.

I haven't lost a palm to cold - yet (knocks on wood), but my most sensitive specimen in the ground is a spindle. But wind? I could make a list! So it's not just the zone envelope that we're pushing, especially in S. FL where hurricanes are more common.

(OT) Paul, I'm sorry to hear about your accident, I hope you have recovered. The drivers here are loco - and gettting worse. Red lights mean nothing to these speed freaks.

[happ]

Another big factor for California growers is water!. Unless we get abundant rainfall [like an El Nino year] there is a good chance the state will issue water restrictions & higher costs. Several years ago [during a bad drought] myself & surrounding neighborhoods got in trouble because pools of water regularly collected on the road. That was also during a bad year for West Nile bird virus. It is already too expensive to irrigate like I would like to & most of my yard space is nothing more than eucalyptus & native walnut.

[_Keith]

Its not neurosis if you have experienced the necrosis.

[gsn]

Its not neurosis if you have experienced the necrosis.

Keith,

That is close to being true!

However on the other hand, worrying about something you really have no CONTROL over is one of the definitons of NEUROSIS! There is a time to get excited/worried/neurotic about cold weather,but it is when it is an immediate threat, not days or weeks away!

Add the fact that all that worrying will give YOU NECROSIS instead of your plants!

Someone needs to start a Drought Neurosis thread!

Edited December 29, 2008 by gsn

[John Case]

Another big factor for California growers is water!. Unless we get abundant rainfall [like an El Nino year] there is a good chance the state will issue water restrictions & higher costs. Several years ago [during a bad drought] myself & surrounding neighborhoods got in trouble because pools of water regularly collected on the road. That was also during a bad year for West Nile bird virus. It is already too expensive to irrigate like I would like to & most of my yard space is nothing more than eucalyptus & native walnut.

Happ,

Despite the common knowledge that the California water issue is a North/South Battle (peripheral Canal, etc.) we all should know that it is an East/West issue, with the Sierras having all of the real precipitation and the cities ans ag land to the West of it.

Water storage via reservoirs may be the only means of assuring the supply for the future. Here in Contra Costa we have a reservoir. A ballot proposition was placed a few years ago quintupling the storage capacity. However, when it was seen that the increase was intended for SoCal, it was soundly defeated. With so many places to build storage, it seems silly to me, at least, that more reservoirs are not being constructed and only the movement of water from one place to another during the melt.....

[happ]

Another big factor for California growers is water!. Unless we get abundant rainfall [like an El Nino year] there is a good chance the state will issue water restrictions & higher costs. Several years ago [during a bad drought] myself & surrounding neighborhoods got in trouble because pools of water regularly collected on the road. That was also during a bad year for West Nile bird virus. It is already too expensive to irrigate like I would like to & most of my yard space is nothing more than eucalyptus & native walnut.

Happ,

Despite the common knowledge that the California water issue is a North/South Battle (peripheral Canal, etc.) we all should know that it is an East/West issue, with the Sierras having all of the real precipitation and the cities ans ag land to the West of it.

Water storage via reservoirs may be the only means of assuring the supply for the future. Here in Contra Costa we have a reservoir. A ballot proposition was placed a few years ago quintupling the storage capacity. However, when it was seen that the increase was intended for SoCal, it was soundly defeated. With so many places to build storage, it seems silly to me, at least, that more reservoirs are not being constructed and only the movement of water from one place to another during the melt.....

John, I agree. But the state water project hasn't been expanded for many years because voters get caught up in "north vs south" rivalries. Also environmental groups have been able to stop construction of more dams that are desperately needed. I think Schwarzenegger will make some progress on his promise to expand water storage. But California's watershed is the Sierra & snow levels are so important this year after meager snowfall last year. The constant fight with Nevada & Arizona over the Colorado river seems to be pointless unless more reservoirs are built up-river in Utah. Too many people & not enough water in the Southwest is a big problem.

[gsn]

Here is a link to water /drought issues!

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=15069