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Silver Queen

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buffy
Like Alberto says the queens at altitude in south Brazil likely see most cold and have lowest heat requirement. Here is me pictured with a queen in the mountains of Santa Caterina close to the border with Parana where Alberto lives. The altimeter was reading almost 1100 metres at this location and in the background of this picture at around 100m lower you can see Butia eriospatha forest in the distance.

Nigel: Please take the pollen from the massive queen and fertilize those Butia eriospathas down below. You could sale those at a premium.

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turfpro01

Wow i hope my silver queen end up that fat. I orderd 1000 seeds from a less known seed supplier and they havent answered my email about where the seeds were collected from, Also I think im affraid alot of them maybe rotting, its hard to tell with the thick seed shell. Ive had them in bags on the heat matt for a few months and have less than 20 so far. :unsure:

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gilles06
Like Alberto says the queens at altitude in south Brazil likely see most cold and have lowest heat requirement.

Here is me pictured with a queen in the mountains of Santa Caterina close to the border with Parana where Alberto lives.

The altimeter was reading almost 1100 metres at this location and in the background of this picture at around 100m lower you can see Butia eriospatha forest in the distance.

Hi Nigel

what are the minimum temperature in this part of brazil?

ciao.

gilles06.

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Nigel

Alberto is probably better able to answer question about lows because he has lived here all his life !

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PalmGuyWC

Nigel,

Send us some more palm fodder to chew on. I can't wait to hear of your new discoveries.

Dick

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Alberto

The minimum temperatures in the past in Palmas - Paraná state where -10´C with regularity. Also at my place temperatures dropped around -10´C sometimes. But the winters aren´t like the winters when I was a boy.....I hope it will stay like this!

In Caçador-Santa Catarina state, the minimum was -14´c but this was the minimum of a century....

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VA Jeff
The minimum temperatures in the past in Palmas - Paraná state where -10´C with regularity. Also at my place temperatures dropped around -10´C sometimes.

Alberto, if that is the case, then the queen in Palmas that I posted a photo of on the previous page should be hardy to -10 C without defoliation. Do you think it has been -10 C in the past 8 years? Google Maps gives an exact location of the park. That's where I got the photo from.

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VA Jeff

Photo of queens in Cacador from Google Maps. No city would keep street trees that looked dead each year. Hopefully these have survived down to -10 C.

2011084.jpg

Interestingly, a few years ago I found maps of documented sightings and maps of archontophoenix cunninghamianas and ficus macrophyllas at a location that had received -8 C according to the Australian Weather Service in New South Wales. When I told a number of palm experts known for going on plant hunting expeditions, no one seemed interested, even when I said I'd provide the maps and other documentation.

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Alberto
Photo of queens in Cacador from Google Maps. No city would keep street trees that looked dead each year. Hopefully these have survived down to -10 C.

2011084.jpg

Interestingly, a few years ago I found maps of documented sightings and maps of archontophoenix cunninghamianas and ficus macrophyllas at a location that had received -8 C according to the Australian Weather Service in New South Wales. When I told a number of palm experts known for going on plant hunting expeditions, no one seemed interested, even when I said I'd provide the maps and other documentation.

Jeff,i remember once a local nursey owner saying he suspected that´´our´´ queen survives to -12´C. Queens grow native in places like this! They aren´t defoliated.

I have 11 bangalow seedligs originated from seeds collected near Urbenville, that must be a very frosty place in NSW!

Were is the place you are talking about?

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VA Jeff

Alberto,

The bangalows are located in two adjacent parks called Nymboida and Washpool at high elevations well over 1,000 m. If you look at a map of New South Wales, in the Northeast corner is a town called Grafton. West of there are those two parks. A highway runs through, where the palms were spotted. It was an official New South Wales website that had a map that included streets and elevations. It would be very easy for someone with a map to find the location, since several locations were right along the highway. When I get back from a business trip, I can start a new thread to see if there is any interest in someone to look for them.

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Ray

This is a picture of my "Silver Queen." The one on the right is a "regular" Queen. I have not had a winter that would

test the cold hardiness of the palm since it was planted.

DSC05808_rs.jpg

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Alberto
Alberto,

When I get back from a business trip, I can start a new thread to see if there is any interest in someone to look for them.

I´M INTERESTED IN SEEDS!!!!!! :rolleyes::lol::drool::drool:

I saw that this places are located souh of Urbenville and are you sure the bangas are growing at 1000m altitude? This CERTAINLY are very frost hardy!!!

Once I wrote an E-mail to a seed dealer saying there were growing bagalows in frosty regions (Urbenville...) but he only answered that the most south growing are the Illawaras and that this has proven to be very hardy! :huh::mrlooney:

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Keith in SoJax

Queen Palms are fast growing plants and demand seems to be constant and high. Therefore, if there were Queen Palms that were uninjured at temperatures of -10C (which is an amazing 14-15F!!!), commercial nurseries would sell them in huge volumes in cities where they are not sold today. The commercial value of a cold hardy provenance of S. romanzoffianum (or whatever it is) is highly significant. Here in north Florida we plant queens like crazy, but we do experience temperatures as low as -10C occasionally, and few of the Queen palms survive, much less look good afterward. How do we get some of those seed to FL. I know just the guy to germinate them (he raises palm seedlings for a living).

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Bennz
Alberto,

When I get back from a business trip, I can start a new thread to see if there is any interest in someone to look for them.

I´M INTERESTED IN SEEDS!!!!!! :rolleyes::lol::drool::drool:

I saw that this places are located souh of Urbenville and are you sure the bangas are growing at 1000m altitude? This CERTAINLY are very frost hardy!!!

Once I wrote an E-mail to a seed dealer saying there were growing bagalows in frosty regions (Urbenville...) but he only answered that the most south growing are the Illawaras and that this has proven to be very hardy! :huh::mrlooney:

careful people, I've seen bangalows at 1100m, but no guarantee of any frost tolerance. It IS cold up there, could be up to 10C colder than the lowlands mean annual temperature, but all those mountain occurences are ridge tops and other situations with cold air drainage away from them. I have looked and never found any on the tableland areas where the real cold occurs, in frost hollows. Also all of the high alititude distribution areas I have seen are under quite dense forest, usually rainforest, or at least wet schlerophyll with very tall canopy trees. I would be surprised if frost ever settles in most of those sites. This is very different situation from the colder frost hollow areas at lower altitude such as occur around Casino or Urbenville NSW, where it is usually warm to hot but also gets very cold on some winter nights. As I keep on saying, those Urbenville trees went through -8C...!

I think the high altitude bangalow occurences only prove this palm has excellent COOL tolerance, not necesarily much frost tolerance.

Alberto, your seed dealer was probably in QLD, and assumes anywhere south of Sydney is always cold, just because the mean annual temperature is 16C not 21C. I have the same problem in my country, trying to tell people from the far north that my farm is NOT covered in permafrost....

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Alberto

Thanks Ben for this explanation!

I ´m hopefull that my Urbenville bangalows will grow and thrive here!

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Nigel

Hi Merrill,

I went to the mountains and took a seed from a `mountain giant`.

Here is the seed sawn in half. Your observations would be appreciated.

regards

Nigel

Hi, Nigel et al.:

This is one of the most interesting developments in Butiinae in my memory! If these extremely small Syagrus seed lack the usual curved lateral protrusion into the seed mentioned in Genera Palmarum for S. romanzoffianum, this in addition to the unusual vegetative traits of these palms might be taxonomic justification for splitting from S. romanzoffianum. We all hope that this new variety will also be able to hybridize with Butia; a cross w/ B. yatay or B. eriospathe would be extremely interesting.

Best Wishes,

merrill

post-432-1231968545_thumb.jpg

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VA Jeff

Hi Nigel,

Where did you find the tree (elevation, nearby city)? Will you be making these seeds available for sale to the US?

Have you noticed the robust queens in hardy provenances being less frizzy looking than the typical queens seen in commerce?

Are you permanently living in Santa Catarina now? Is it really very much like Europe there, in your opinion?

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Nigel
Hi Nigel,

Where did you find the tree (elevation, nearby city)? Will you be making these seeds available for sale to the US?

Have you noticed the robust queens in hardy provenances being less frizzy looking than the typical queens seen in commerce?

Are you permanently living in Santa Catarina now? Is it really very much like Europe there, in your opinion?

Hi Jeff, I took the seeds from the mountains which tend to be between 800m and 1100m altitude. I didnt know the exact altitude but am guessing it is around 1000m as it was near Curitabanos. I tend to look at the vegetation nearby, if the usual Dypsis lutescens and native Euterpe edulis are absent then its a place that gets frosts and is pretty cold in winter.

I honestly cant say to you if the appearance is cultural or genetic, maybe they like a certain type of soil, but I can certainly procure commercial quantity for export from these monster plants if you help me with the regs at your end. In the area around Curitabanos almost all the queens seemed to be of the monster variety, fat trunks, huge crowns, not droopy and frizzy but reminding of a royal palm.

The coast of Santa Caterina is in my opinion the equal of anywhere in europe ,the infrastructure is modern and they have everything here. Travel into the interior and and the infrastructure is still very good but at the same time its still a very traditional and rural economy ( the real Brazil) ,unlike the coast which could be anywhere in Europe.

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Nigel

Bumped for Merrill

Hi Merrill,

I went to the mountains and took a seed from a `mountain giant`.

Here is the seed sawn in half. Your observations would be appreciated.

regards

Nigel

Hi, Nigel et al.:

This is one of the most interesting developments in Butiinae in my memory! If these extremely small Syagrus seed lack the usual curved lateral protrusion into the seed mentioned in Genera Palmarum for S. romanzoffianum, this in addition to the unusual vegetative traits of these palms might be taxonomic justification for splitting from S. romanzoffianum. We all hope that this new variety will also be able to hybridize with Butia; a cross w/ B. yatay or B. eriospathe would be extremely interesting.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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merrill

Hi, Nigel:

My apologies for missing the cutaway of the seed of your "Super Queen." It will be interesting to see taxonomically what the taxonomists

conclude. I REALLY look forward to trying this seemingly very unusual strain.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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buffy

I sure am glad I started this thread. :)

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Nigel
Hi, Nigel:

My apologies for missing the cutaway of the seed of your "Super Queen." It will be interesting to see taxonomically what the taxonomists

conclude. I REALLY look forward to trying this seemingly very unusual strain.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Hi Merrill, sorry I miseed your reply ! Are you saying this cutaway appears different to the norm, are is it very much like a normal queen seed in your opinion ?

Incidentally, I am getting around 5% of the seeds germinating as `doubles` having 2 compartments. Is this unusual too ?

Edited by Nigel

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merrill

Hi, Nigel:

My attitude re' the intrusion of endosperm into the shell is that Queen seems to have that exclusively. OTOH, I'm not used to spherical Queen seed. It seems possible some taxonomist may split these huge Queen-like palms. Their foliage is certainly beautiful!

Your high proportion of two seedlings per nut is higher than mine, but not necessarily more than some others.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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Nigel

Many thanks Merrill, so in truth this is really what one would expect for a Syagrus rom. I still have a suspicion that the difference in size is cultural rather than genetic but I hope I am wrong about that.

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merrill

Hi, Nigel:

Me again! My impression is that your palms w/ bushy, dense fronds and heavy trunks are quite different from typical Queen, I expect reproducible in other environments. This impression is independent of any taxonomic decision. I suspect you hope I'm correct!

Best Wishes,

merrill

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Nigel
Hi, Nigel:

Me again! My impression is that your palms w/ bushy, dense fronds and heavy trunks are quite different from typical Queen, I expect reproducible in other environments. This impression is independent of any taxonomic decision. I suspect you hope I'm correct!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Yes I hope ! Certainly these plants show better resistance to winter conditions if nothing else. I need to take my camera and make some more photos.

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HKO2008

This is all very interesting stuff.

If Merrill is right, the Santa Catarina Syagrus could become a seperate subspecies?

Is this being investigated right now? I am suprised no one jumps at this subject, apart from the fact that everybody wants seed and this variety of Syagrus to be used in a hybrid.

Greetings,

Henri

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kristof p
If it comes from Rio da Prata (Rio Plata) region in Argentina it´s NOT the coldest provenance,because this lowland region despite it´s located more south is warmer than the highlands of south Brazil (segundo Planalto) and specially of the state of Santa Catarina (counties of Lajes,Caçador) and Palmas in the State Paraná.

Alberto,

i have a strong feeling the silver queen originated in Santa Catarina...

a quote out of our beloved "an encyclopedia of cultivated palms"

""the queen palm is relatively hardy to cold and is usually unscathed by temperatures above 25°F? it is adaptable to zones 9b trough 11 in areas subject to wet freezes in winter and to 9a trough 11 in the drier climates. it is doubtless true that, if they can be found, individuals from the southerly habitats have more cold tolerance than those from the tropical areas of Brazil, which fact has led to several names in the nursery trade for differing forms with acompanying claims of unusual hardiness. the problem is that the names are simply created on the spot and probably do not correspond with any given provenance. one of the latest named forms has a slight silvery sheen to the undersides of the leaflets, robust trunks, and much smaller seeds. its procenance probably is southerly but it cannot be documented. it is, however, significantly hardier to cold and survived the devastating freeze in central florida of 1989(David Witt, pers. comm.). these palms are the progey of individuals grown by Dent Smith (founder of the international palm society), who obtained them from the Santa Catarina state of Brazil, whose boundaries extend to latitude 28° south..

Edited by kristof p

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HKO2008

Kristof,

good point.

A lot of people in the US see Syagrus Litoralis as a synonym for Syagrus 'Silver Queen'. However, given the appearance and cold hardiness, the Syagrus 'Santa Catarina' should be a better candidate although i do suspect that Syagrus 'Silver Queen' is not 'pure' any more. The only criteria for identifying 'Silver Queen' have been appearance and cold hardiness and not their place of origin.

I am still eager to know what the taxonomics have to say about the 'suspicion' of Merrill...

Henri

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kristof p

i have no idea what the litoralis realy is. is it just a name for Syagrus growing along a river in Argentinië or god nows were, is it a synoniem for the 'silver queen'?...if it is a synoniem than why did they named it litoralis? it could be that a person just kind of 'invented' this one...realy no idea at all. i only know that they grow good in our climate but so does also my 'normal' queen seedlings...

i'm very interested in those 'high altidude' syagrus from santa catarina, whatever it is...in the quote they say the seeds of the silver queen are smaller but the seeds of the syagrus Nigel talks about are large...very interesting. the size of the seeds could look differant in differant kinds of envirements or even from year to year on the same tree or from individuals of the same species growing next to eachother...again, i only know that it is a very beautifull and robust Syagrus and it probably handles our cool conditions much better than a 'normal' queen...

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Nigel
i have no idea what the litoralis realy is. is it just a name for Syagrus growing along a river in Argentinië or god nows were, is it a synoniem for the 'silver queen'?...if it is a synoniem than why did they named it litoralis? it could be that a person just kind of 'invented' this one...realy no idea at all. i only know that they grow good in our climate but so does also my 'normal' queen seedlings...

i'm very interested in those 'high altidude' syagrus from santa catarina, whatever it is...in the quote they say the seeds of the silver queen are smaller but the seeds of the syagrus Nigel talks about are large...very interesting. the size of the seeds could look differant in differant kinds of envirements or even from year to year on the same tree or from individuals of the same species growing next to eachother...again, i only know that it is a very beautifull and robust Syagrus and it probably handles our cool conditions much better than a 'normal' queen...

I believe the person who first used the name syagrus litoralis is ( or was ) a contributor on this board. In portuguese litoral is shoreline so it means syagrus from the shoreline.

The big santa catarina queens are growing in the mountains, the ones along the shoreline are mostly regular in appearance. I was told the origin is from shoreline of river plate but cant verify this.

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HKO2008

Interesting information...

However, someone transplanted the name Syagrus Litoralis onto the Silver Queens. I think there is where all the confusion started.

About the Syagrus 'Santa Catarina', i am still waiting for taxonomic results or taxonomics to chime in. Who is currently investigating this? Is there someone investigating this?

Henri

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kelen

this is other huge Syagrus romanzoffiana

post-2078-1236892842_thumb.jpg

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krishnaraoji88

Bump for updates!

-Krishna

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Nigel

The minimum temperatures in the past in Palmas - Paraná state where -10´C with regularity. Also at my place temperatures dropped around -10´C sometimes. But the winters aren´t like the winters when I was a boy.....I hope it will stay like this!

In Caçador-Santa Catarina state, the minimum was -14´c but this was the minimum of a century....

Update... not about Syagrus rom, but to say there is a large population of wild Trithrinax acanthacoma growing on the edge of this city.....

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krishnaraoji88

I was just curious if after the reviews on Butia and the dwarf syagrus Dr. Noblick had taken a look at this palm. Also wondering if anyone had further updates on seedlings and their tolerance to cold since a few people mentioned earlier in the thread they had seedlings. I have some supposed seeds (of the mountain form) but havent been able to get them to germinate yet.

-Krishna

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Mark Heath

I sure am glad I started this thread. :)

I am too Buffy! I took a pic of my supposed silver Queen. I am sorry it is a little dark but you can see that it has alot of "silver" on the boots more so then a normal Queen, at least here at my home w/ compairing all my different Queens. It recieved zero damage from the monster cold winter we had here in lowlando where i recorded 21f for 1 hour and 22f for several hours w/ heavy frost.

It was singled out by a nurseryman who has a HUGE wholesale nursery here in Orlando who said it was a Silver Queen.

It could be wishfull thinking on my part that there is such a thing but i do see a difference between the queen next to it and the silver one.

post-518-12761218499853_thumb.jpg

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Cikas

In Nova Prata (820 meters) - Rio Grande do Sul, there are huge Syagrus romanzoffiana and they are very cold hardiness, they are the biggest Syagrus that I saw.

That is huge :yay:

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Alicehunter2000

So what is the latest? ...... is this where the RPS seed comes from?

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