Silver Queen

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

In reference to Pogo Bob's S. abreojos, I was given a small seedling last spring. For a small seedling it grew at a pretty good clip last summer which leads me to believe it may be a mutation of S. romanzoffianum. I have other exotic Syagrus, or tropical ones, and they just languish in my cool night climate and hardly grow at all.

I have the S. abreojos under cover this winter but when it gets larger it will be planted and then it will get cold tested. Does anyone in S. Calif. have one that's been exposed to freezing or frost?

Dick

[freakypalmguy 309]

In reference to Pogo Bob's S. abreojos, I was given a small seedling last spring. For a small seedling it grew at a pretty good clip last summer which leads me to believe it may be a mutation of S. romanzoffianum. I have other exotic Syagrus, or tropical ones, and they just languish in my cool night climate and hardly grow at all.

I have the S. abreojos under cover this winter but when it gets larger it will be planted and then it will get cold tested. Does anyone in S. Calif. have one that's been exposed to freezing or frost?

Dick

Dick,

I have a small S. abreojos (Thank you again OsideTerry) as well. It is planted completely exposed and has seen frost a few times so far this year. Once completely coated. It appears unfazed so far, but I assume we will have to wait a few weeks to see if there is any latent damage. The rabbits decided to prune it for me initially, but it has since grown back rapidly.

Matt

[chris78 7]

Nigel,

As to silver queens, this was a name given to some palms growing in Florida that survived a deep freeze by Carters seeds some 20 years ago. The confusion is caused by unscrupulous vendors trying to sell every syagrus that survives -0.0001C as a silver queen. Nobody knew the provenance of those Carters queens.

Nigel

I got two so call silver queens that I grew from seeds I got from Carters Seeds in my yard. I order them because they said they were more cold hardy.....

In 2007 I had 2 nights at 18F and the two silver queens got about 1/3 to 1/2 plus leaf burn. Really no more or less than regular queens I have..... So I not sure if these seed from Carters Seeds are any more hardier or not.

[kelen 14]

This is a different Syagrus romanzoffiana in my city - Canguçu (Rio Grande do Sul), it's very big and have a lot of leaves. The fruits are round and little.

[Jeff in St Pete 716]

Kelen, your photos are amazing. I love seeing the giant Syagrus romanzoffiana photos. They look so different than any Queen palms I have ever seen anywhere else. At first glance, that last photo looks like a Royal palm.

[VA Jeff 61]

Nigel,

As fas as other potentially hardy palms of great interest in Santa Catarina, I think this includes:

euterpe edulis

attalea dubia

geonomas

acrocomia

Have you seen any of these species/ genera in cold provinances?

Jeff, I have not seen any of these growing in cold places here, they simply peter out as you go up the mountain. I think Alberto found an odd palm or two in his neighbourhood.

As to silver queens, this was a name given to some palms growing in Florida that survived a deep freeze by Carters seeds some 20 years ago. The confusion is caused by unscrupulous vendors trying to sell every syagrus that survives -0.0001C as a silver queen. Nobody knew the provenance of those Carters queens.

It is also fairly well accepted that Santa caterina queens take cold better in Florida.

The fact is these are all one and the same species, the only difference is provenance. Syagrus litoralis ( River Plate) sees cold in winter so is a very southerly form. Syagrus from mountains of Santa caterina are known to be robust and more cold hardy, and probably with a lower heat requirement.

In response to Nigel's observations, I am wondering if the best places to look for cold hardy specimens would be in private yards in towns within cold pockets. Perhaps random local collectors would have better luck at arbitrarily weeding out less hardy individuals. I know one town in Santa Catarina receives snowfall nearly every year. If any palms were spotted during drivebys (or by satellite views) the owner could be contacted for seeds collections. After all, this is how some famous hardy cultivars were selected, such as sabal Birmingham and the Bulgarian trachys. Out of almost 1,000 seedlings, I was able to select out a handful of jubaeas that can handle humid coastal 40 C weather a few days each year over the last 5 years. Too bad they'll take 40 more years to set seed.

Back to the topic of silver queens, I lost 2 potted specimens and 2 planted specimens between 5-9 feet tall from winter cold. some potted specimens died around 22 F, while one silver queen returned totally defoliated this spring after seeing 17 F and several other days ad shape below 20 F before I protected it. It was around 9 feet tall, but it was in such bad shape that it only grew a few inches over the next summer before dying from fertilizer application.

[Alberto 1,534]

If it comes from Rio da Prata (Rio Plata) region in Argentina it´s NOT the coldest provenance,because this lowland region despite it´s located more south is warmer than the highlands of south Brazil (segundo Planalto) and specially of the state of Santa Catarina (counties of Lajes,Caçador) and Palmas in the State Paraná.

Alberto,

Can you give us an idea of the temperature range in the most heat-deprived places Queens grow? This would be of interest to those of us in cool but frost-free climates.

I guess in Brazil the most heat-deprived places would also be likely to be the frostiest, but not always the case elsewhere.

Cheers,

Ben

Benn here is the forecast of Palmas(!!! ),the coldest place of Paraná:

http://www.simepar.br/tempo2/previsao/index.jsp?id=4117602

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

I keep looking at the photographs of the Giant mountain Syagrus. It doesn't even look like a queen palm to me. It seems to hold more fronds and they are stiff and don't arch. I wonder if it's a different species? It's a giant so anyone who plants one better have plenty of room.

Dick

[VA Jeff 61]

Google maps shows a photo of the Praca bom Jesus in Palmas with a fat healthy queen in it. The elevation is almost 1100 m. Curitiba to the east with a slightly lower elevation and nearer the coast has a record low of 23 F in the past 18 years, though it doesn't automatically mean it is hardier.

[Nigel 50]

I keep looking at the photographs of the Giant mountain Syagrus. It doesn't even look like a queen palm to me. It seems to hold more fronds and they are stiff and don't arch. I wonder if it's a different species? It's a giant so anyone who plants one better have plenty of room.

Dick

Dick, I dont know if it is cultural or genetic. Even here at the beach in Florianopolis there seems 2 distinct types of Syagrus rom. Some with thin trunks and normal leaves and others with huge trunks and heavy dense leaves.

There doesnt seem to be any fruiting right now so the seed question needs to wait.

I also seem to remember Alberto saying that the prefeitura in Curitiba bought mature queens from Rio cheaply, and they all died the first winter whereas the native queens were untouched, so I also think provenance is relevant.

[Alberto 1,534]

Rio da Prata (Portuguese) Rio de la Plata (Spanish) =river Plate.

On this little map you can see the Rio da prata monding in sea (little star- *)near the cities of Buenos Aires and Montevidéu. The tablelands were I live are below the Letter Z of the word BRAZIL on this map.All the water of our rivers of the tablelands flow to the Rio da Prata,because the Serra do Mar (atlantic mountain range) ´´blocks´´ the sea.

Despite the location far south, the climate of Buenos Aires is similar to ours,but (because of the low altitude and proximity to the sea) they don´t have the extreme lows we see here sometimes.They grow Howeas outside..........

Here the cultivated queen palms also show a big variability. Some are very plumose with fat trunks. others show a very slender trunk.... The native ones from Carambeí are between the two sizes. I´ll make some photos the following days to show this....

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2007/08/29/image3216246.gif

[Alberto 1,534]

Rio da Prata (Portuguese) Rio de la Plata (Spanish) =river Plate.

On this little map you can see the Rio da prata monding in sea (little star- *)near the cities of Buenos Aires and Montevidéu. The tablelands were I live are below the Letter Z of the word BRAZIL on this map.All the water of our rivers of the tablelands flow to the Rio da Prata,because the Serra do Mar (atlantic mountain range) ´´blocks´´ the sea.

Despite the location far south, the climate of Buenos Aires is similar to ours,but (because of the low altitude and proximity to the sea) they don´t have the extreme lows we see here sometimes.They grow Howeas outside..........

Here the cultivated queen palms also show a big variability. Some are very plumose with fat trunks. others show a very slender trunk.... The native ones from Carambeí are between the two sizes. I´ll make some photos the following days to show this....

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2007/08/29/image3216246.gif

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

I have not seen any Syagrus R. growing in the USA with such gigantic preportions as the "mountain giant." It's a beautiful palm and if it's cold hardy too, there would be a huge market in the USA for this palm. But, the seeds should be collected in habitat and not in some city garden in case of contamination from other Syagrus growing nearby.

Dick

[merrill 406]

Hi, Nigel et al.:

This is one of the most interesting developments in Butiinae in my memory! If these extremely small Syagrus seed lack the usual curved lateral protrusion into the seed mentioned in Genera Palmarum for S. romanzoffianum, this in addition to the unusual vegetative traits of these palms might be taxonomic justification for splitting from S. romanzoffianum. We all hope that this new variety will also be able to hybridize with Butia; a cross w/ B. yatay or B. eriospathe would be extremely interesting.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Bennz 158]

Rio da Prata (Portuguese) Rio de la Plata (Spanish) =river Plate.

Here the cultivated queen palms also show a big variability. Some are very plumose with fat trunks. others show a very slender trunk.... The native ones from Carambeí are between the two sizes. I´ll make some photos the following days to show this....

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2007/08/29/image3216246.gif

Hi Alberto,

Do I understand correctly that the natural Queens are all more or less consistent in Caramabei area? Are the high altitude fat forms also consistent, or do they vary inside the same population?

I have noticed with our native Rhopalostylis populations (which also vary hugely) that while there does tend to be distinct population types, they are not totally consistent, and some of the palms appear more like another population average. If the natural palms were truly consistently different I will also be queing up for seeds!

btw, any sign of extra cold tolerance in those Urbenville bangalows?

Cheers,

Ben

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

Merrill,

I can see you and I are thinking along the same lines concerning hybridization.

Nigel, in your post #8 with you next to one of the "mountain Giants" and Butia eriospatha clearly in view not to much further away, I wonder if the B. eriospatha forest were explored, if maybe a hybrid might be found. Also is there any instance where the two species might be found growing together?

I'm sure this would not be an easy task, as there are distances and valleys, and probably snakes and thorrns, but it might be worth exploring. What do you think, Nigel? Is this on your agenda? BTW, are there poisionus snakes in that area? I always think of snakes when in the brush.

Dick

[Nigel 50]

Dick, we did import a naturally occurring Butia eriospthax Syagrus a couple of years ago. Its trunk was gigantic ,far larger than either those gigantic syagrus or Butia eriospatha. It was almost Jubaeaesque.

I attach pics of this monster, with other butyagrus for scale,and after import in holland with spade for scale.

Merrill, when I can acquire some ripe seeds I will send some over to you for inspection, your eye is much more experienced in these matters than mine.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Nigel

[ricky 2]

hi Nigel hope your doing well in Brazil them syagrus are monsters iv been very happy with the one i got from you back in 2007 the fronds survived all the frost of the winter 07/08 but gale force winds snapped them both off in the spring but considering the very cool summer this year i think its made quite a good recovery for a syagrus in the UK hopefully this year i should be able to plant it in the ground

first picture shows palm in November 08 and the second shows palm in September 07

Ricky

[Nigel 50]

Ricky, considering the cold, it has grown as well as you could possibly expect.

[ricky 2]

hi Nigel i do think this syagrus will be a real winner in the UK it is only one palm and its only half way through its second winter but its already seen 10+frost dipping down to minus 4.9c and its showing no ill effects so far i think this palm is going to have a bright future in the UK the following link will give weather records for my village for anyone interested http://doncasterwx.co.uk/records.htm

Ricky

[Tala 22]

Nigel that hybrid is a monster! Vigour? Jubaea? Very nice! It reminds me of the palm the late John Bishock got from Merrill. Perhaps someone (Christian?) can alert Faith to this so we can see a pic of it. It holds a wide bole plus the fronds are held upright.

I'm a bit confused now - are we saying the fat trunk Syagrus have the small seed? Or we don't know yet? Are there wild populations (hopefully isolated) of these?

[merrill 406]

Hi, Nigel and many other palm lovers:

At risk of being boringly repetitious, these unique Syagrus look extremely promising. I dimly remember a unique XButyagrus in central Florida that had some similarities, but never Butia.

More power to you!

merrill

[_Keith 746]

Dick, we did import a naturally occurring Butia eriospthax Syagrus a couple of years ago. Its trunk was gigantic ,far larger than either those gigantic syagrus or Butia eriospatha. It was almost Jubaeaesque.

I attach pics of this monster, with other butyagrus for scale,and after import in holland with spade for scale.

Merrill, when I can acquire some ripe seeds I will send some over to you for inspection, your eye is much more experienced in these matters than mine.

Nigel,

Probably just me, but I haven't seen you post in a while. Good to see your post. Oh, and awesome palms too.

[millic 1]

I planted two "Silver Queens" out early this summer as test plants. One out in the open exposed to the elements and another next to a wooden fence where my St Augustine seems to stay green the longest once winter arrives.

The one out in the open was toast at around 27 degrees. The other is doing just fine and has survived 20.2, although I did place a bucket over it. The one still alive was also a much more vigorous grower this summer.

[Roaringwater 7]

Ricky, it seems that your "Silver Queen" is a good one. I'm sure it will grow much faster in the ground. It would be great if you could plant it near a south wall, for reflected heat. You might like to post your photos on growingontheedge.net , I'm sure there would be a lot of interest.

[ricky 2]

hi Michael luckily the garden faces southwest so that's one plus and iv only got about two feet of top soil over pure sand which is good for drainage but dries out very fast when it gets warm but warms quit fast as soon as the days get longer i have high hopes for this palm

Ricky

i have posted this over on the eps site in the past

[Mark Heath 34]

Hi, Nigel and many other palm lovers:

At risk of being boringly repetitious, these unique Syagrus look extremely promising. I dimly remember a unique XButyagrus in central Florida that had some similarities, but never Butia.

More power to you!

merrill

Hello Merrill,

I have seen a Queen that was as large as the ones in the earlier pics. It was a friend of Jerry Hooper. His name is Richard Lundstat i believe??? I know his last name is misspelled but if i can find a way to get a pic,,, you will not believe the size of this monster!!!! I'll get more info for you!! And hopefully a pic!

Mark

[kelen 14]

Merrill, when I can acquire some ripe seeds I will send some over to you for inspection, your eye is much more experienced in these matters than mine.

How could I know if seeds will be a hybrid??

This picture is the tallest Butyagrus that I saw, there are a lot os butyagrus around its, I brought 3 seedlings that was born around this big butyagrus, some Syagrus and Butias. I left the biggest seedling in Santa Maria and take a picture of others, could be a butyagrus?

Nigel, are germinating some seeds that sent me: Trachycarpus wagnerianus, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Chamaerops vulcano and Nannohops ritchiana. The others specis still sleep.

Happy new year!

[kelen 14]

My seedlings and other butyagrus next to big butyagrus...

[Nigel 50]

Kelen very interesting pictures !

Quando eu tenho um pouco mais tempo , eu gosto de visitar voce , e voce pode me monstar todo ai !!

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

Glenn (Ghar41) from Modesto is visiting me later today, and we hope to get some photos. of my Cocoid hybrids. It may rain today, so I hope it holds off till later today. I'm not sure if he will start a new thread or post on some of the exhisting theads. I've been wanting to get a pic posted of my Butia X Parajubaea as it grew quite a bit last summer. Also some pics of my monster Butiagrus, but it's hard to photograph with a Jubaea and some Oaks growing nearby.

Dick

[Alberto 1,534]

Rio da Prata (Portuguese) Rio de la Plata (Spanish) =river Plate.

Here the cultivated queen palms also show a big variability. Some are very plumose with fat trunks. others show a very slender trunk.... The native ones from Carambeí are between the two sizes. I´ll make some photos the following days to show this....

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2007/08/29/image3216246.gif

Hi Alberto,

Do I understand correctly that the natural Queens are all more or less consistent in Caramabei area? Are the high altitude fat forms also consistent, or do they vary inside the same population?

I have noticed with our native Rhopalostylis populations (which also vary hugely) that while there does tend to be distinct population types, they are not totally consistent, and some of the palms appear more like another population average. If the natural palms were truly consistently different I will also be queing up for seeds!

btw, any sign of extra cold tolerance in those Urbenville bangalows?

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben!

Here i can see that queens that grows in very poor and not deep soils have very thin trunks. I saw this very thin trunked queens transplanted to heavy red clayish soil, suddenly developing thicker trunks,making a very ugly palm..... Most in Carambeí have a regular trunk . Some are fatter. BTW I consider Carambeí as high altitude! (1000-1100 meters altitude with Araucaria forest)

I have 11 seedlings of the Urbenville bangalow.... I planted the ``urbies´´ last week,between a group Trackys and against the araucaria forest.I really hope this will be the strain that can survive here!

[VA Jeff 61]

Is it a real possibility that these may be differentiated enough to be a separate species? Maybe Larry Noblick at Fairchild would be interested. If it is a new species, the major relevance to me would be facilitating the identification and acquisition of hardy specimens. If only acrocomias were still segregated between totai and aculeata, I'd have an easier time acquiring a totai.

If it is a new species, it seems that the specific name "robusta" would be appropriate.

Kelen, do you have any closeups of the trunks of these nice specimens? Many regular queen palm trunks appear a bit shabby to me. The photos of trunks in this post seems a bit tidier looking. Also, do the leaflets feel/appear thicker and wider than typical romanzoffiana (grasslike)? Is the leaflet arrangement any different? Some queens seem to have very fluffy plumose arrangements, like a wodyetia; and some have a stiffer, more orderly plumosity, like a roystonea.

[Nigel 50]

As far as I know Dr Noblick has been all over this part of south america so must be aware of the variations. It would be interesting to know his opinion.

[fastfeat 120]

This is a different Syagrus romanzoffiana in my city - Canguçu (Rio Grande do Sul), it's very big and have a lot of leaves. The fruits are round and little.

Now that's an impressive-looking palm!

[kelen 14]

Picture of trunk.

[pogobob 77]

Hi Merrill,

One of the things I want to do this year is to procure seed from those high altitude monsters to grow in the nursery here, as well as to sell. I know everybody wants this seed.

Dave here is the only other pic I have of this tree.

Nigel, I think you may have discovered the origin of syagrus abreojos. I remember you posting these pics a while back and noticed a simularity then. Maybe a Brazilian sailor or fisherman passed thru Baja and dropped a few seeds at the ice factory, who knows?

[Alberto 1,534]

Nigel that hybrid is a monster! Vigour? Jubaea?..................

I remember that I saw this xButyagrus and another even bigger at Aldecir´s nursery 2 years ago. He had some xButyagrus with B.odorata x S.romanzoffiana from Santa Catarina´s litoral ( both not huge palms) and the xButyagrus with B.eriospatha crossed with a fat highland queen. There was a very big difference in size between this two hybrids!!! And,yes the monster xButyagrus look like it had Jubaea ´´blood´´ but this isn´t the case because there aren´t mature jubaeas in Brazil.............

[PalmGuyWC 1,480]

Alberto,

I've mentioned before on here that I have a giant Butiagrus. It's a monster and most people think it's half Jubaea. Mine was a natural hybrid that came from central Florida and there are no mature Jubaeas growing there. Glenn from Modesto was here yesterday and took some photographs. Maybe he will post a picture of the monster today and also a pic of the Butia X Parajubaea. It was raining and not a good day for photography.

Dick

[Alberto 1,534]

In Lorenzi´s book (Palmeiras Brasileiras...) appears a typical fat queen:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Jungle/9625/palmeira.jpg

I really don´t believe this are two different palm species. They are varieties of the same species.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Alberto