Silver Queen

[buffy]

OK. What's the concensus on this Syagrus after a couple of years? Cold hardiness? Where to buy?

[Alberto]

If it comes from Rio da Prata (Rio Plata) region in Argentina it´s NOT the coldest provenance,because this lowland region despite it´s located more south is warmer than the highlands of south Brazil (segundo Planalto) and specially of the state of Santa Catarina (counties of Lajes,Caçador) and Palmas in the State Paraná.

[John in Andalucia]

I have 30 seedlings of var. litoralis and they are quite slow growers. Mine have given me problems with brown leaf tips, either under or over-watered. They are the last seedlings I would have expected to show such sensitivity. I germinated them in February/March of this year, and they are still mostly one-leafers. Said to survive 15F?

[Bennz]

If it comes from Rio da Prata (Rio Plata) region in Argentina it´s NOT the coldest provenance,because this lowland region despite it´s located more south is warmer than the highlands of south Brazil (segundo Planalto) and specially of the state of Santa Catarina (counties of Lajes,Caçador) and Palmas in the State Paraná.

Alberto,

Can you give us an idea of the temperature range in the most heat-deprived places Queens grow? This would be of interest to those of us in cool but frost-free climates.

I guess in Brazil the most heat-deprived places would also be likely to be the frostiest, but not always the case elsewhere.

Cheers,

Ben

[kelen]

In Nova Prata (820 meters) - Rio Grande do Sul, there are huge Syagrus romanzoffiana and they are very cold hardiness, they are the biggest Syagrus that I saw.

[Mark Heath]

In Nova Prata (820 meters) - Rio Grande do Sul, there are huge Syagrus romanzoffiana and they are very cold hardiness, they are the biggest Syagrus that I saw.

That is the largest Syagrus that i have ever seen!!! WOW!!!!!

[Kris]

Dear Friends

Any visuals of the silver queen,the one discussion ?

Lots of love,

Kris

[Nigel]

Like Alberto says the queens at altitude in south Brazil likely see most cold and have lowest heat requirement.

Here is me pictured with a queen in the mountains of Santa Caterina close to the border with Parana where Alberto lives.

The altimeter was reading almost 1100 metres at this location and in the background of this picture at around 100m lower you can see Butia eriospatha forest in the distance.

[Tala]

has anyone noticed any uniformity in seed size on their silver queens or other synonyms? Here the only way I can separate my cold hardy Syagrus (this an offspring from the original palms brought into Fl. via Dave Barry) from other Queens is by the seed size. This is very small esp. when compared to "typical" Sy.r. and almost completely round.; the aforementioned palms survived the apocalyptic cold of the '80s, their origin is the same S.C.province Nigel mentions above.

[Nigel]

Tala, indeed the seed of this queen in the picture was relatively small and rounded.

[DoomsDave]

In Nova Prata (820 meters) - Rio Grande do Sul, there are huge Syagrus romanzoffiana and they are very cold hardiness, they are the biggest Syagrus that I saw.

WHOA! That thing's a monster!

A gorgeous monster, maybe a shot of the crown?

[merrill]

Hi, Nigel:

I, and I'm sure others, would really like to buy seed as shown: "Tala, indeed the seed of this queen in the picture was relatively small and rounded."

Best wishes,

merrill

[Nigel]

Hi Merrill,

One of the things I want to do this year is to procure seed from those high altitude monsters to grow in the nursery here, as well as to sell. I know everybody wants this seed.

Dave here is the only other pic I have of this tree.

[floridagrower]

I know there is indeed a more robust variety that can take into the mid teens briefly. I've seen them being mixed in with regular queens for variety, or perhaps by accident. They are noticeably fatter in every way. The leaf blades are fatter and more erect giving it a royal palm-like appearance. You cannot confuse the two if you were to see it in real life.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Nigel and Kelen, thanks for the photos. They are beautiful robust palms!

[John in Andalucia]

I posted this earlier in the year. It shows my "Silver Queen" sprouted seeds, which are quite elongated, with a regular S. romanzoffiana seed for scale.

[Tala]

here is seed off my palm

[John in Andalucia]

here is seed off my palm

Those are big! My seeds came from RPS about a year ago: Link.

Without knowing exactly where mine were collected from, I can't really comment on the size variation.

[Tala]

nah the pic is a closeup, they're on top of GP2 cover. The seed is small, smallest queen seed I have ever seen. Will take another w/ something for scale.

The red cap is off reg. size Coke bottle.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Tala

[edbrown_III]

I have a queen palm out in the front yard that went through the 89 freeze---- should I be selling these seeds also?

Best regards,

Ed

[FRITO]

ive been very interested in growing the high elevation form of the queen found in the Tablelands of Brazil.

They would make a great canidate to grow here in the panhandle and along the gulf coast.

M@x sent me what he called syagrus rom. 'giant form' and showed me this photo below. I believe it is in the Naples, Italy Botnaical garden.

anyone have comments on this? the seeds were larger and more elongated than normal queen seeds with lots of stringy fiber husk covering the seed.

Edited December 27, 2008 by FRITO

[Tala]

ha, wish I could sell mine, there's next to no interest in them here. I guess we need another Arctic sized record breaker for me to get some business ...

Luke I have seen some very large seed as well, the funny thing (to me anyway) is the palms that all of these dif. seed are from the palms all look the same. We haven't had any cold to speak here for about 6 winters now so I can't test other Queen plants. Mine took 23f w/ no damage, it's parents survived back to back 19f lows.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Tala

[edbrown_III]

Dave,

you will probably get some pms on account of this

[Tala]

Dave,

you will probably get some pms on account of this

yikes ... here is the palm. Planted as a 1g grown from seed in '92 it now has 20 ft of wood easy. Funny how much they slow down after they start flowering.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Tala

[John in Andalucia]

Nice shot, Dave. Yours looks a lot like the palm in the photo that Luke posted, but with much smaller seeds?

[Tala]

here is seed off my palm

Those are big! My seeds came from RPS about a year ago: Link.

Without knowing exactly where mine were collected from, I can't really comment on the size variation.

John,

do you know if anyone has formally recognized litoralis? I don't think it is in Kew but they may be behind. I haven't tried it myself. have you noticed any diff. between it & reg. Queens? I read the descrip. on RPS site, that "silver queen" stuff is a load of bull IM(not so)HO, I remember how/when that nonsense got started... but then I'm also known as a dispassionate dyspeptic!

yeah the palms themselves all "look the same" to mine eyes anyway, but Old Man Winter sure knows how to sort them out!

Edited December 27, 2008 by Tala

[John in Andalucia]

Dave,

I don't know the formal situation regarding the "Silver Queen" variation. Here is some more info: Link.

You have me curious about this now. I read a few old threads from various forums in Spanish from 2005 which also rubbished the notion that it was anything other than Syagrus romanzoffiana.

The description in the above link highlights the fact that the "Silver Queen" is renowned for being shorter, so I don't understand the "Giant Form" aspect. Another example: Link.

[John in Andalucia]

Found on another forum:

I am currently looking for high elevation Brazilian Silver Queen Palm; called "silver queen" or Sp. Santa Catarina (this is not the 'litoralis' Syagrus romanzoffiana, which come from the Brazilian borders, I'm looking for a mountain form, much more hardy) .

So the high elevation form is what M@x sent to Luke, and this is also called "Silver Queen". I am slow today!

[gsn]

The so called silver queen I beleive to be a myth.

Syagrus litoralis I beleive translates to lowland /seashore provanance, at least that was stated on this board previously. So even the name doesn't make sense,as one looking for a more cold hardy palm would be looking in area with elavation for provanance,one would think?.

However I do beleive that there are many VARIATIONS in queen palms. Both in appearance ,and cold hardiness. I'm just not convinced that what people are being sold most of the time as Silver queens are in fact really Syagrus litoralis ,or silver queens.

As far as seeds go I have also noted this difference ,but not so much in size ,but in shape. Here are some pics I posted a couple of years ago when this disscussion came up then.They are both queen palm seeds,with the football shaped one being the more common queen palm seen around these parts. The round one being the one seen far less,and the actual palm seems to have a much more upright crown,than the football shaped one. I really can't say if one other the other is more cold hardy than the other however?

This is my 2 cents on the subject.

Edited December 27, 2008 by gsn

[John in Andalucia]

Tomorrow, I'll post a recent photo of one of my "var. litoralis" seedlings, roots and all. Seedling comparisons will be interesting too!

[freakypalmguy]

Hi Merrill,

One of the things I want to do this year is to procure seed from those high altitude monsters to grow in the nursery here, as well as to sell. I know everybody wants this seed.

Dave here is the only other pic I have of this tree.

Nigel,

Both of your photos show a palm with much more densely packed, wider, and more relaxed leaflets. Very nice looking. It looks very similar to PogoBobs mystery Syagrus (abreojos). Here is a pic of his. I wonder if this is the same palm?

Matt

[Ken Johnson]

What evidence is there that cold tolerance is related to the area the palm comes from?

In fact there is much evidence that the opposite is often true; that palms from hot areas often are hardy in cold areas!

As far as queens they seem to be like Phoenix, very promiscuous. This is partly due to their long history of cultivation. Varieties,or more often hybrids, are common in widely cultivated palms. Humans do a lot of selection as some of you are trying to figure out in theses discussion about queens. Genetic selection among gardeners is often poorlty misundestood and even when scientist try it it may take hunderds of years or more. The bottom line for most of us is that what does well in one area or garden may be totaly different from what happens in or own yard. Yes you should try to get seed from palms that appear to have the traits you want but the results WILL vary.

BTW Hybrids often contain genes for vigor. If you want to play with evolution and develop hardy palms for cold areas learn how to hybridise. You will be rewarded!

[kelen]

Other photo of Huge Syagrus

[VA Jeff]

Nigel,

If you get distributors in the US and Europe, you could send large shipments of seeds or small seedlings all at once to be sold domestically in both regions.

As fas as other potentially hardy palms of great interest in Santa Catarina, I think this includes:

euterpe edulis

attalea dubia

geonomas

acrocomia

Have you seen any of these species/ genera in cold provinances?

[Nigel]

Nigel,

If you get distributors in the US and Europe, you could send large shipments of seeds or small seedlings all at once to be sold domestically in both regions.

As fas as other potentially hardy palms of great interest in Santa Catarina, I think this includes:

euterpe edulis

attalea dubia

geonomas

acrocomia

Have you seen any of these species/ genera in cold provinances?

Jeff, I have not seen any of these growing in cold places here, they simply peter out as you go up the mountain. I think Alberto found an odd palm or two in his neighbourhood.

As to silver queens, this was a name given to some palms growing in Florida that survived a deep freeze by Carters seeds some 20 years ago. The confusion is caused by unscrupulous vendors trying to sell every syagrus that survives -0.0001C as a silver queen. Nobody knew the provenance of those Carters queens.

It is also fairly well accepted that Santa caterina queens take cold better in Florida.

As to Syagrus litoralis , I believe this was a name given to palms growing on bank of River Plate. Litoralis referring to shore of this great river. Unfortunately every Syagrus growing next to the sea ( litoral) is now also a Syagrus litoralis.

The fact is these are all one and the same species, the only difference is provenance. Syagrus litoralis ( River Plate) sees cold in winter so is a very southerly form. Syagrus from mountains of Santa caterina are known to be robust and more cold hardy, and probably with a lower heat requirement.

If you see a silver queen or litoralis for sale, ask about the provenance. If the vendor cant give it to you, dont buy it.

[John in Andalucia]

If you see a silver queen or litoralis for sale, ask about the provenance. If the vendor cant give it to you, dont buy it.

Perhaps Toby can provide some provenance for the seeds I bought from RPS last year. Those I sprouted were not at all round, although they were much smaller than "regular" Queen seeds that I can find locally.

[kristof p]

last year i sowed some S. litoralis seeds. i have a totaly other experiance than John in andalucia. they do not grow slow for me but i can not say they are faster than regular S. romanzoffiana which are also not that slow if you grow them from seed directly in the kind of climate they are ment to be planted out! the only ones i know of that do not grow good here in our "cold" summer climate are the ones that are imported from warmer countries like spain. last year i tryed out one of my homegrown Syagrus romanzoffiana (starting with dividing leaves) but it had stemrot after last years winter(lowest -5.9°C, but very wett).

i also dont think that those Syagrus from high elevation are much cold hardier but i think that because of the lower heat requirements they can make more reserves than "regular" S. romanzoffiana in a cold climate and are therefore better suited for "cold" summer climates.

i think that a "regular" Syagrus romanzoffiana(imported from a warmer climate) which is very slow growing in my climate is only half as hardy than one that grows good in our summer.

I'm just quessing, if i want to know this for sure i need to test them out within a few years from now...

[PalmGuyWC]

I agree that Queens grown in the USA have been in cultivation for so long that they have mixed and you never know what your going to get. I would imagine most of the nurserymen have no idea of their source and that most of the seed sources are domestic. The only way one could be sure of growing the mountain giant is to get the seeds from their habitat. Nigel, you have a good thing going there. I imagine the "giant" would do well in California with our cooler nights.

I have one queen that seems to fit the silver Queen description, but I just bought it as a "regualr" Queen. All of mine are the same age, but this particular one has grown only half as high as the others. It has a beautiful form with drooping fronds, and the flower sheathes and the base of the petioles have a lot of silver tomentum. This is the Queen that Patrick Schafer uses as a pollen donor, because of it's nice form and because its the only Queen that is low enough to reach the flowers.

Dick

[Tala]

yes what Nigel said. All this "silver when its cold" stuff is to put it diplomatically, nonsense. Caveat emptor is the rule here, and I wouldn't even trust my own palms as small sdlgs in anything below 20f. Just not practical, size helps. Also I've seen Syagrus w/ 2 ft of wood cut back to ground level only to return from the dead so they too make leaves underground for a bit. Not as deep as others (Sabal, Borassoids, etc.) but they can grow back.

Scott - great seed pic, the bottom is how I ID mine. The top row is what I would refer to as "typical" Queen seed, and there is a 3rd size noticeably larger than your top row. I know where to get some, the palm is a typical looking queen but no cold for awhile so I've noticed no diff. to any other Sy.

[Urban Rainforest]

Hi Merrill,

One of the things I want to do this year is to procure seed from those high altitude monsters to grow in the nursery here, as well as to sell. I know everybody wants this seed.

Dave here is the only other pic I have of this tree.

Nigel,

Both of your photos show a palm with much more densely packed, wider, and more relaxed leaflets. Very nice looking. It looks very similar to PogoBobs mystery Syagrus (abreojos). Here is a pic of his. I wonder if this is the same palm?

Matt

Matt, You beat me to it but I totally agree. It was like looking at Pogo Bobs monster of a queen! I germinated many of these and have heaps of 5 gals. now. The seed was of the rounded model as opposed to a football. I am growing these not for their cold hardiness as queens are not tested in my mild So Cal. temps but rather for their humongous size and form. I have resisted planting queens but I will be planting one of these this spring in my garden for canopy. The only other Syagrus I am growing is a little beauty called Syagrus Glaucescens.

Stevo