Palm latitude extremes.

[bgl]

From the few photos I saw from the Falkland Islands it looks like a very barren place. I would assume that the temperature of the surrounding ocean is critical, and my guess is that cold water from Antarctica probably has a negative influence - at least as far as growing tropical or subtropical plants!

[Neofolis]

Thinking about it The Falklands are not the best example anyway, because although their weather will have a major oceanic influnce, the land mass is still large enough to have some cooling effect as air travels over it. Looking at the stats for Campbell Island, it does seem unlikely that palms will grow anything like as far South of the equator as they do North of it. If any of these volcanic islands have hot springs it may help possibly. I was also wondering if the Gizza's (sp?) in NZ have any positive influence on surrounding temperatures.

[Roaringwater]

Not a latitude extreme by any means, but here's one more pic from Fota Gardens (Ireland)- a very old clump of Chamaerops humilis, about 12 ft across:

[Clint]

What about this;

Simrishamn, Sweden. 55°33'N. It's in Österlen, which faces the south end of the Baltic, and probably has the best climate in Sweden, still partly warmed up by the Gulf stream, a wee bit protected from the worst of the North Atlantic by Skåne and Denmark, and from the Russian and Finnish cold by the Baltic. It has pretty much the same climate as we have over here, although a slightly shorter growing season (35 weeks instead of 38 weeks here in Nijmegen)

Speaking of Nijmegen, city council has recently started planting T. Fortunei around some of the city centre streets.

[palmierbret]

Here following a link toward some pictures of an old Phoenix canariensis situated in Cherbourg, in North Western of France.

http://fousdepalmiers.fr/html/forum/viewto...f=29&t=4310

It was planted in 1907. Cherbourg city is about 49°38’N. I guess it is the Phoenix canariensis about one hundred years old the most northerly of continental Europe. The others are in UK or Ireland.

Fred

[kristof p]

Fred,

that P. canarensies is a monster! very nice one...

last summer i was in the neighbourhood of Cherbourg and visited the garden in vauville. i was amazed by that garden, it felt like i was in a forest somewhere in New Zeeland...very nice garden and i think it has a very mild climate.

a couple of pictures of the garden in vauville...(sory for the amount of pictures )

[kristof p]

...

[kristof p]

[kristof p]

[kristof p]

the last ones ...good waves to.

[palmierbret]

Yes, Vauville is a beautiful exotic garden, and the lanscape around is fine too.

Enclosed a picture a the Jubea chilensis from the garden "Emmanuel Liais" situated at Cherbourg, down town.

It's only 2,5 m hight, but it is about more than one century old. It is nanified and always at 49°38’N.

It was first cultivated in big pot in greenhouse, and move outside in the garden, when the greenhouses where destroyed in 1944.

Such small Jubaee is very very rare in France.

Fred

[JasonD]

Here in Southsea on the south coast of the UK we are at 50.8 N, there are fruiting Phoenix canariensis planted close to the seafront which have produced viable seed (believed to be a UK first), they were planted over 12 years ago...

In my own garden I have various palms planted out, though many other enthusiasts grow the same species much further north than me, however I do think that I may possibly have the most northerly growing Archontophoenix cunninghamiana??? The oldest of which has been planted outside for the last 6 years...

Wow! 50 north and growing Archontophoenix. That's amazing. Ahh, the Gulf Stream.

[JasonD]

Because of the Gulf Stream, palm growing zones in western europe extend further away from the equator than anywhere else in the world. Rhopalostylis sapida has been grown on Tresco, Isles of Scilly at 49 degrees north (zone 10a), since the mid-nineteenth century. Although century-old trees were killed by a freak frost of -8c in 1987, their replacements are already a good size. Some coastal areas of Ireland are even milder than Tresco, and have never gone below -4c. Rhopalostylis 'Oceana' is doing well in my own garden, at 51 degrees north:

I am now trying Howea forsteriana and Hedyscepe canterburyana. I've already had a couple of seedlings of Lepidorhacchis mooreana outside for three years. Ireland can boast of having the northernmost established Juania australis in the world, growing at Earlscliffe near Dublin at 53 degrees north (zone 9b). It was planted in 1996, and has already reached an impressive size, despite never having been given any fertiliser! Here it is:

Phoenix canariensis is being grown successfully as far north as Nairn, Scotland at 57 degrees north (zone 8b), along with Jubaea chilensis and Trithrinax campestris.

The northernmost palms are to be found along the west coast of Norway. Trachycarpus fortunei is grown without protection in Bergen, Norway at 60 degrees north (zone 8b). With a tent to keep off the worst of the snow, it is grown in Alesund, Norway, at 62 degrees north. Alesund has the coldest zone 9a climate in the world. The temperature there rarely drops lower than -5c, but also hardly rises above freezing for much of the winter. It seems that Trachycarpus can cope with this extended hibernation.

Your contribution is invaluable to those of us living in heat-starved climates. We face similar constraints, despite more-southerly latitudes (I'm at Athens/Lisbon, approximately). Thank you!

[madgav]

I remember Andy (AJQ), who used to post quite regularly was tring a few narginal things in Northern Ireland, Geonoma schottiana, etc.

Hi All,

I live about 10 miles from Andy (AJQ). We've visited each others' gardens and I have to admit that it's his success with certain species (b.edulis, j.australis, etc) which has convinced me to try them with similar success.

Also got rhapis excelsa still happy in its second winter here. Here's what I'm growing.

First post here BTW, long time lurker though. I've been posting a bit on the EPS site for a while now.

Gavin.

[madgav]

I uploaded a jpg and set it as my avatar but it doesn't seem to have worked?

Sorry the pics on my website are over a year old BTW, didn't get a chance to update them recently.

Gav.

[madgav]

I uploaded a jpg and set it as my avatar but it doesn't seem to have worked?

Sorry the pics on my website are over a year old BTW, didn't get a chance to update them recently.

Gav.

OoPs

It's actually fine, was in work earlier and something must have been blocked. Can see the avatar ok here at home

[DoomsDave]

IN terms of sheer extremes, those Norwegian Trachies appear to take the cake, unless there's some further north in Alaska, which I seriously doubt.

Ohhh, dat Gulfstream!

[galveston1602]

Wow! these pics are amazing! I had no idea about some of these places with palms!

Thanks again...

[Ryland]

Check out the Pacific Northwest Palm and Exotic Plant Society. They have photos of phoenix canariensis, washingtonia robusta, and others well north of 47N. Also keep in mind that Seattle's average low in the coldest month is 37F, not unlike Ojai in southern California.

[PalmsZA]

Hi all

How far North and South with Phoenicophorium and Verscha grow... here at 30 S we can grow both. Oz? Florida...

Cheers

Dennis

[Sutter Bob]

This is a fascinating subject. The effect of the Gulf Stream is indeed amazing.

I wonder if Redding, CA at about 40 degrees N. latitude might represent the northern limit on the west coast of north America for any heat-loving species. I wonder if Bismarckia or Beccariophoenix alfredii might be examples.

The abrupt end of the Sacramento Valley there seems to be a fairly distinct climatic if not ecological boundary while the coastal terrain and climate seem to vary more gradually as one travels north.

I suspect that palms which tolerate conditions here in Yuba City could survive another degree of latitude to the north in the valley since the climate is so similar.

I know that Washingtonia, Trachycarpus, and Phoenix canariensis have been growing to the north of this area around Chico and Red Bluff for well over a hundred years.

Yuba City at 39 degrees N. latitude has the above plus numerous recently established Syagrus romanzoffiana and Phoenix roebellini.

In addition, a number of fairly old Butia, Brahea, and Chamaerops, are dotted around the landscape.

Recently a number of Ravenea rivularis have appeared.

These are essentially deciduous here with nearly complete defoliation in the winter followed by the appearance of abundant, verdant

new pinnate growth by this time of year. Perhaps this species should have been named Phoenix.

Over the last several years I have observed a number of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana surviving and growing in somewhat protected areas.

I suspect that one day a number of other species might be found here.

Possibilities include: Beccariophoenix alfredii {seems likely}, Burretiokentia happala, other Archontophoenix, Rhopalostylis, Oraniopsis, Ravenea glauca, Caryota maxima, and numerous others. Again, if they grow here I suspect they might thrive father north in Redding.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

I don't have a picture handy but i know Sol (Nomolos ) has a Dypsis leptocheilos growing outside in the ground down here at 42 deg south .

My Archontophoenix Alexandrea is thriving down here outside .

[Mike in Nelson]

A alexandrae in the garden here too and doing well. Preparing Hyophorbe indica and Dypsis lutescens in pots to plant out in a year or two.

[Alex-v]

Alenxandrae.lat.43.

[sarasota alex]

Livistona chinensis in Nikitsky Botanical Garden near Yalta, Ukraine (44°30'N). The only palm in their collection that I haven't heard of growing farther north elsewhere.

There are also Sabal bermudana growing in Sochi, Russia (about 43°35'N)

[Xenon]

40 foot Royals in Galveston, not the farthest north, but it's just south of Houston..

Jonathan

[kahili]

Raleigh is at lat. 35 degrees, and I have a Livistona chinensis that has been in the ground for over 5 years. Its looks beautiful-very healthy and the top leaves are over 6' high and its about 6-7' wide. It loves our hot and humid summers, but it has seen (although protected) 8-10 degrees for several nights in a row most winters and many nights at 17 degrees. I don't protect it until it does get near 20 degrees or less. I am surprised at how well it looks for this far north-but maybe I shouldn't be? Sometimes I think that we just assume that a palm won't do well, but if it can get through the first winter or so, it starts to adapt better than we think. But then last winter I lost two S. palmettos, so who knows. Micro climates help a lot when you get this far north.

[JASON M]

How about trachycarpus fortunei in Alaska?

[iamjv]

Jason the trachy in Alaska is dead... I saw it two years ago and it was a goner. Jv

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

People like to debate the furthest growing coconut, most northerly in FL, southerly in OZ, etc. so why not discuss what other species grow at extremes both north and south of the equator? Please discuss the details, as in how long, does it seed, etc. I think palms that have not been in the ground a year don't get to go on the list.

Here are a few, this got me thinking as I saw an extreme planting yesterday.

Verchaffeltia splendida - Bokeelia, FL (Pine Island)

Pinanga batanensis - St. Petersburg, FL (7 feet of wood and a stunner!)

Pinanga cochinchinensis - Sarasota, FL

Sabal palmetto - healthy protected ones outside on Virginia Beach, VA's strip. I saw one driving up Rt. 17 in Jacksonville, NC with 20 feet of wood and very healthy - it was seeding at the time. I actually take this way from VA Beach to Savannah because you can go Sabal hunting.

Anyone want to take a shot?

Oh, I think you should give it back to Va Beach. Here is why:

Below is a post that posted over in THIS THREAD about the largest Xbutyagrus. Keep in mind that these palms, and many more like them are long established, mature, bloom and produce viable seed. I think that definitely counts in terms of what this thread is about as it relates at least to Sabal Palmetto.

As promised earlier in this thread, here are a few photos of "Floriginia" LOL! These are just a few photos from just 1 persons yard in Va Beach. Its several miles inland from the ocean, but this is a SOLID 8b climate. These palms have all taken some snow, especially last winter where the usually snow free Va Beach got hit hard at least a couple times with very heavy / deep snow fall. While it did snow, the temps never really got particularly cold however. Low 30's - upper 20's mainly but the daytimes often went back into the 40s, which is still fairly COLD for Va Beach. Usually winter daytime temps are upper 40s to near 50 for the coldest months of Jan/ Feb. Usually within 10 miles or so of the ocean or southern Chesapeake bay stays a solid zone 8b, sometimes a cold 9a. The gulf stream helps this climate out as well. As a result, many are discovering that their yards can look like this:

(note - I'm fairly certain that most of these trees were planted 15-20 years ago, and have grown up in this location, and now bloom and go to seed.

Same palms in a heavy snowstorm that dumped around a foot:

Just one more - Yes Oleander, Agaves, and many many Yuccas also flourish in Va Beach.

This is just ONE yard. I know of 15 or 20 more I have either seen myself, or seen photos of in the Va Beach area that look like this, or even MORE like north Florida. Not to mention all of the commercial places and public parks along the ocean that plant palms and see them survive for years and years. Va Beach is slowly becoming very much the "Tropical" beach city of the southern Mid Atlantic, and perhaps the northern most on the east coast. It is common to see large windmill palms even up into the Delaware and south Jersey shore areas as well.

I would venture a guess that Mule Palms might actually have a decent chance of surviving in Va Beach, especially given that Butia Capitata and Sabal Palmetto seem to not only survive, but thrive there.

EDIT: all of these palms, and many many many more just like them grow UNPROTECTED in the Va Beach area. I think these particular palms except the windmills, needles and S. Minor, were protected somewhat when they were young and establishing. Now they go unprotected save for sometimes some rope lights wrapped around the trunks. The city and hotels protect the Sabals and Butias along the ocean, but many home owners do not, and they do just fine.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

How about trachycarpus fortunei in Alaska?

Jason the trachy in Alaska is dead... I saw it two years ago and it was a goner. Jv

However, there are PLENTY of those growing to full size trees in Vancouver and Victoria BC.

[sarasota alex]

There are Sabal palmettos growing in and near Sochi up to about 44°55'N, which is farther north than Toronto, Ontario. They're even becoming invasive in some places. The coastal parts of Sochi are in zone 9a and get more precipitation per year then most of Florida (63 inches on average per year)

[DoomsDave]

Well, there's always the Rhopy sapidas that grow naturally at 44 degrees south.

That's pretty extreme.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

There are Sabal palmettos growing in and near Sochi up to about 44°55'N, which is farther north than Toronto, Ontario. They're even becoming invasive in some places. The coastal parts of Sochi are in zone 9a and get more precipitation per year then most of Florida (63 inches on average per year)

I have to say I did not know Sochi, Russia was such a palm heaven, but after doing a quick google search for "Sabal Palmetto in Sochi, Russia, I FOUND THIS. THese are fantastic photos of Sochi, and show that there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than Sabal Palmetto growing there. Very very neato torpedo!

[Sutter Bob]

There are Sabal palmettos growing in and near Sochi up to about 44°55'N, which is farther north than Toronto, Ontario. They're even becoming invasive in some places. The coastal parts of Sochi are in zone 9a and get more precipitation per year then most of Florida (63 inches on average per year)

I have to say I did not know Sochi, Russia was such a palm heaven, but after doing a quick google search for "Sabal Palmetto in Sochi, Russia, I FOUND THIS. THese are fantastic photos of Sochi, and show that there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than Sabal Palmetto growing there. Very very neato torpedo!

Looks like home - pretty amazing.

[sarasota alex]

There are Sabal palmettos growing in and near Sochi up to about 44°55'N, which is farther north than Toronto, Ontario. They're even becoming invasive in some places. The coastal parts of Sochi are in zone 9a and get more precipitation per year then most of Florida (63 inches on average per year)

I have to say I did not know Sochi, Russia was such a palm heaven, but after doing a quick google search for "Sabal Palmetto in Sochi, Russia, I FOUND THIS. THese are fantastic photos of Sochi, and show that there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than Sabal Palmetto growing there. Very very neato torpedo!

Looks like home - pretty amazing.

There are some nice pictures including those of Sabal palmetto, bermudana and minor (on the next page from the link) in this Sochi thread on the Ukrainian palm forum http://myflora.org.ua/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=302&start=120 (in Russian)

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

There are Sabal palmettos growing in and near Sochi up to about 44°55'N, which is farther north than Toronto, Ontario. They're even becoming invasive in some places. The coastal parts of Sochi are in zone 9a and get more precipitation per year then most of Florida (63 inches on average per year)

I have to say I did not know Sochi, Russia was such a palm heaven, but after doing a quick google search for "Sabal Palmetto in Sochi, Russia, I FOUND THIS. THese are fantastic photos of Sochi, and show that there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than Sabal Palmetto growing there. Very very neato torpedo!

Looks like home - pretty amazing.

There are some nice pictures including those of Sabal palmetto, bermudana and minor (on the next page from the link) in this Sochi thread on the Ukrainian palm forum http://myflora.org.u...t=302&start=120 (in Russian)

1. You are up late! Must be a night owl like I am sometimes.

2. If you had asked me a few hours ago if I thought I would ever look at "Palm Porn" and have "Palm Envy" from any place in Russia, I would have looked at you like your were nuts.

3. Thanks for sharing that link! Some great stuff in there!

[sarasota alex]

Ken, I'm actually up not far from you in Fredericksburg, VA working on a presentation for tomorrow in a hotel room. Taking "palmtalk breaks". When I have some more free time, I'll post some pictures from my July trip to Yalta.

[Mike in Nelson]

Raleigh is at lat. 35 degrees, and I have a Livistona chinensis that has been in the ground for over 5 years. Its looks beautiful-very healthy and the top leaves are over 6' high and its about 6-7' wide. It loves our hot and humid summers, but it has seen (although protected) 8-10 degrees for several nights in a row most winters and many nights at 17 degrees. I don't protect it until it does get near 20 degrees or less. I am surprised at how well it looks for this far north-but maybe I shouldn't be? Sometimes I think that we just assume that a palm won't do well, but if it can get through the first winter or so, it starts to adapt better than we think. But then last winter I lost two S. palmettos, so who knows. Micro climates help a lot when you get this far north.

Interesting what you say here because 35 latitude is not that far north, especially when considering an island with an oceanic climate. The range of palms that could be grown on an island at this latitude is obviously far greater than the equivalent with a continental climate. What a difference the sea effect makes.

[ed110220]

Cycads for Africa have a Royal at their place just outside Knysna. It can be seen (indistinctly) from the N2 in front of the house: Google Streetview

It's growing at 34.04S, perhaps this is a record?