NEW RATING SERVICE FOR NURSERIES AND GROWERS

[PALM MOD]

Allowing comments about nurseries and growers in the "Discussing Palms" forum has turned into a fiasco. Not only is it off-topic to what we would like to discuss in that forum, it has turned into a disrespectful free for all.

The IPS wants to allow feedback on growers, so that buyers can get some idea of who they are dealing with when they find a nursery here or elsewhere. So, in order to provide some order, and to provide a more worthwhile service, we are instituting a new area that will be used exclusively for the discussion of those who sell seeds and/or palms. In addition it will contain a rating system for individual nurseries and backyard growers.

Jungle Music and JD Andersen Nursery have graciously agreed to be the first two added in order to show everyone how this will work. Please check it out. And please add your own, or request which nurseries/growers you would like to see included. Also, please take the time to read the short list of rules. They are important.

Any comments about growers should now be posted there. And if there is already an existing topic/rating a grower you wish to comment on, your comments should be included there. This way all comments, and all positive or negative feedback will be in one easy to find location.

This new area is located in the Palm Exchange. NEW RATING AREA

[tropicalb]

Palm grower ratings = really bad idea imho.

[BS Man about Palms]

This is very similar to the e-bay rating system and I think can be very helpful.

If following that model, I would strongly suggest adding a "NEUTRAL" rating. That can be quite helpful as it has been to me on e-bay as I have bought a lot over the years. More or less it kinda implies: "While a transaction was completed, I do not feel it was an overly pleasant experience, nor was it an entirely regretful one either. For future transactions, due diligence may be required by both parties."

I'm also not sure, but maybe you may want to add under the rules. "If not obvious, anyone posting a positive, negative (or neutral) response should have actually HAD a transaction with the named seller."

[PALM MOD]

Palm grower ratings = really bad idea imho.

It would be nice to know why you think so. We are allowing a "rating system" now. It is just a mess of snide remarks and disjointed complaints mixed up and spread over several different threads, with complaints rolling in to the Moderator by the dozen wanting this remark deleted and this member banned. Not a real healthy situation.

Since people are more inclined to take the time to complain when angry, I thought it would be nice to allow those who are happy with a grower to easily express their satisfaction. We were entering down a path with way more negative sentiments than positive, when I think most people have something good to say. I think more buyers will be inclined to enter a positive feedback with a simple click and remaining anonymous if desired, as opposed to having to take the time to post by name.

And a negative still requires someone to stand behind their reasons for expressing disatisfaction. So I would assume most sellers will have many positives, and the negatives will be for good reason, and can be refuted or made good by the seller.

[PALM MOD]

This is very similar to the e-bay rating system and I think can be very helpful.

If following that model, I would strongly suggest adding a "NEUTRAL" rating. That can be quite helpful as it has been to me on e-bay as I have bought a lot over the years. More or less it kinda implies: "While a transaction was completed, I do not feel it was an overly pleasant experience, nor was it an entirely regretful one either. For future transactions, due diligence may be required by both parties."

I'm also not sure, but maybe you may want to add under the rules. "If not obvious, anyone posting a positive, negative (or neutral) response should have actually HAD a transaction with the named seller."

I use eBay a lot and the feedback system is indispensable. I know that they require a transaction to have taken place. I also use other sites that have ratings that don't require a transaction to have actually taken place.

-There is no way here to know or enforce if a person has had a transaction, so it's unverifiable and unworkable. And on other sites I've visited that don't require a transaction in order to leave feedback, it has been useful to know from a prospective buyer that they were jerked around and promised things on the phone. Or a bait and switch was pulled on them. Or prices where misrepresented, etc. All useful info from someone who never actually purchased anything.

-I'll think about the neutral, although my initial response is that I see it is rarely ever used on eBay, and as a buyer it never really told me anything. It just clouds the issue. Is it a slight plus, or is it a slight minus, or is it a nothing (a real neutral)? If it's a plus, vote positive. If it's a minus, vote negative. If it's a nothing, why even put it down.

[BS Man about Palms]

This is very similar to the e-bay rating system and I think can be very helpful.

If following that model, I would strongly suggest adding a "NEUTRAL" rating. That can be quite helpful as it has been to me on e-bay as I have bought a lot over the years. More or less it kinda implies: "While a transaction was completed, I do not feel it was an overly pleasant experience, nor was it an entirely regretful one either. For future transactions, due diligence may be required by both parties."

I'm also not sure, but maybe you may want to add under the rules. "If not obvious, anyone posting a positive, negative (or neutral) response should have actually HAD a transaction with the named seller."

I use eBay a lot and the feedback system is indispensable. I know that they require a transaction to have taken place. I also use other sites that have ratings that don't require a transaction to have actually taken place.

-There is no way here to know or enforce if a person has had a transaction, so it's unverifiable and unworkable. And on other sites I've visited that don't require a transaction in order to leave feedback, it has been useful to know from a prospective buyer that they were jerked around and promised things on the phone. Or a bait and switch was pulled on them. Or prices where misrepresented, etc. All useful info from someone who never actually purchased anything.

-I'll think about the neutral, although my initial response is that I see it is rarely ever used on eBay, and as a buyer it never really told me anything. It just clouds the issue. Is it a slight plus, or is it a slight minus, or is it a nothing (a real neutral)? If it's a plus, vote positive. If it's a minus, vote negative. If it's a nothing, why even put it down.

I actually used eBay more a long time ago than now. Sadly the use of the rating system has slowly changed its value. Way back, a good percentage of the ratings were neutral, and only really good or really bad transactions got the other ratings. I think it was more accurate that way, I posted a couple of neutrals myself. (months to get an item, poor contact, etc.) It has morphed into the "feeling of the moment"- "Everyone competing should get a ribbon".

I think a neutral allows people to choose that option and not just have to resort to the decision, "Well, I did actually get a living palm although it was not the size implied, or it finally got here after 2 months, although the postmark was for just last week, etc."

Overall, I think it will allow a more accurate picture of the "NURSERIES AND GROWERS".

[pogobob]

Worst idea to date Dean! playing right into the nursery groupies hands you are. Personally, I am sick and tired of all the bragging and promotting of ALL the growers and their worshippers on the forum as it constantly leeds to confrontations over bang for bucks and size really matters issues. Your going to drag a lot of others into the fray who will definatly ring your gong like never before! If you think this is EBAY, You will be getting a BIG negative feedback...Moderate the Moderater on this one

[John in Andalucia]

Worst idea to date Dean! playing right into the nursery groupies hands you are. Personally, I am sick and tired of all the bragging and promotting of ALL the growers and their worshippers on the forum as it constantly leeds to confrontations over bang for bucks and size really matters issues. Your going to drag a lot of others into the fray who will definatly ring your gong like never before! If you think this is EBAY, You will be getting a BIG negative feedback...Moderate the Moderater on this one

Who or what are nursery groupies? And why should you feel embittered about other peoples' positive experiences? This is a worldwide forum, and it reaches far beyond that kind of narrow-minded thinking.

[Pivi]

Great idea Dean!

If someone wants to SELL palms on this forum, then he must be prepared for users feedback. Whether it is positive or negative.

So other users can know what to expect.

[BS Man about Palms]

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Bob, BUT, I think the grower that receives a negative feedback, should be allowed to directly provide a rebuttal on the same post as the negative one. Because just like you can see on eBay at times (usually obvious when both comments are viewed together), sometimes the buyer is the problem.

I think any negative posts should have a "spot reserved" for a civil rebuttal.

[bgl]

By-Laws of the International Palm Society, Inc:

Article 1 - Purpose

Sec. 1 - The International Palm Society Inc. shall at all times be operated solely and exclusively for scientific and/or educational purposes related to the study of palms, their propagation, culture, conservation, care and development.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

MY COMMENT - education, propagation, culture and care - among other things - is exactly what a good palm nursery is all about, and by providing feedback from happy (or unhappy) customers this sub-forum can serve as a useful guide to every palm enthusiast on PalmTalk. The IPS is definitely not in the business of promoting any particular nursery, but we most certainly want to inform and educate.

Bo-Göran

PS to Bill - seems to me a "Neutral" with a negative comment attached is automatically a "Negative".

[pogobob]

Worst idea to date Dean! playing right into the nursery groupies hands you are. Personally, I am sick and tired of all the bragging and promotting of ALL the growers and their worshippers on the forum as it constantly leeds to confrontations over bang for bucks and size really matters issues. Your going to drag a lot of others into the fray who will definatly ring your gong like never before! If you think this is EBAY, You will be getting a BIG negative feedback...Moderate the Moderater on this one

Who or what are nursery groupies? And why should you feel embittered about other peoples' positive experiences? This is a worldwide forum, and it reaches far beyond that kind of narrow-minded thinking.

Dean, Please bring back the Palapa so we can expand our narrow-minded thinking

[pogobob]

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Bob, BUT, I think the grower that receives a negative feedback, should be allowed to directly provide a rebuttal on the same post as the negative one. Because just like you can see on eBay at times (usually obvious when both comments are viewed together), sometimes the buyer is the problem.

I think any negative posts should have a "spot reserved" for a civil rebuttal.

Bill is always neutral...safe and smart

[John in Andalucia]

Worst idea to date Dean! playing right into the nursery groupies hands you are. Personally, I am sick and tired of all the bragging and promotting of ALL the growers and their worshippers on the forum as it constantly leeds to confrontations over bang for bucks and size really matters issues. Your going to drag a lot of others into the fray who will definatly ring your gong like never before! If you think this is EBAY, You will be getting a BIG negative feedback...Moderate the Moderater on this one

Who or what are nursery groupies? And why should you feel embittered about other peoples' positive experiences? This is a worldwide forum, and it reaches far beyond that kind of narrow-minded thinking.

Dean, Please bring back the Palapa so we can expand our narrow-minded thinking

[Pivi]

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Bob, BUT, I think the grower that receives a negative feedback, should be allowed to directly provide a rebuttal on the same post as the negative one. Because just like you can see on eBay at times (usually obvious when both comments are viewed together), sometimes the buyer is the problem.

I think any negative posts should have a "spot reserved" for a civil rebuttal.

Bill is always neutral...safe and smart

yeah wright... where would we all be if there was no ebay ranking system.

There would be a lot of scams. Same thing here.

Ranking system is a great idea. I don't hear others complaining.

Even more, TOP nurseries agreed to be listed first.

That's all from me.

[BS Man about Palms]

PS to Bill - seems to me a "Neutral" with a negative comment attached is automatically a "Negative".

Bo- I don't believe I posted anywhere about a neutral with a negative comment, if so, I would agree with you. Just like for the positive, a neutral could be checked without a post.

Bill

[John in Andalucia]

Negative votes have been left without a comment. I hope others will help moderate this new forum until all the time-wasters have cast their one and only vote.

[bgl]

Bill,

This is (part of) what you posted:

"While a transaction was completed, I do not feel it was an overly pleasant experience, nor was it an entirely regretful one either. For future transactions, due diligence may be required by both parties."

My comment: "I do not feel it was an overly pleasant experience" is a negative comment the way I see it. Also "due diligence may be required etc." implies that the customer needs to pay more attention than he normally would feel necessary. Another negative comment IMO.

Bo-Göran

[street124]

Great idea.

[PALM MOD]

Let me address a few of the concerns in no particular order:

-As mentioned, negative votes without an explanation (comment) will and have already been deleted. When anyone notices this, please let me know.

-On eBay, I always interpreted a neutral as a negative. If someone didn't feel like they got a great deal and excellent service, and hesitated to give a full recommendation, to me that went in the negative column. A luke warm opinion to me, was just that, not really a recommendation --- so not a reason to have faith in doing business there.

-As I write, we have a total of 40 positive votes and no negatives. How can anyone start complaining about the process so far?

-Remember that this is for any nursery, or mail order business in the world - not just for those who "advertise" on PalmTalk. You may add anyone you wish.

Bob,

As I have mentioned to you several times, if you don't like the idea of people selling stuff here, or don't like the idea of members commenting on those people, bring it up for discussion. This board is operated for the benefit of it's members --- not for big nurseries, small nurseries, backyard nurseries, groupie nurseries, or nursery groupies. And we believe offering a place for acquiring palms, and a way to evaluate those who offer palms for sale, is a benefit for the members. Since you don't want to bring it up for discussion, I'll start a poll to see how the members feel about this. Then hopefully my feelings that the members appreciate this service will be vindicated, and you will understand why PalmTalk is doing it --- for the members, not for the sellers.

[tropicalb]

Here is why people use neutral:

the bad is equal to the good, and neither is bad or good enough to warrant any other response.

example:

the plants were really nice, however the shipping was extremely slow.

in other words, a positive and negative experience from the same grower, so neutral is the proper feedback response.

[PALM MOD]

Here is why people use neutral:

the bad is equal to the good, and neither is bad or good enough to warrant any other response.

example:

the plants were really nice, however the shipping was extremely slow.

in other words, a positive and negative experience from the same grower, so neutral is the proper feedback response.

I guess I don't get it. Suppose there are 100 neutrals, does that make you more or less inclined to buy from that vendor?

[tropicalb]

I guess I don't get it. Suppose there are 100 neutrals, does that make you more or less inclined to buy from that vendor?

depends on the comments associated with the neutral feedback.....the point is, it's a valid feedback response.

Edited November 28, 2008 by tropicalb

[PALM MOD]

I guess I don't get it. Suppose there are 100 neutrals, does that make you more or less inclined to buy from that vendor?

depends on the comments associated with the neutral feedback.....the point is, it's a valid feedback response.

Burt,

Neutrals would not have comments. I could never require that a comment accompany a neutral vote. If I made it mandatory to comment when a neutral vote was registered, it would be a logistical nightmare. I would have to manually count every potential neutral comment, and compare it with the neutral vote count. Already there have been several negative votes that had no comment added. People do not always follow directions. In fact, they rarely do.

This will be easily doable with the few negatives that will come through, and you have to realize that growers will be monitoring their own ratings page, and will alert me when there is an unsubstantiated negative vote.

Don't forget that this will be a valuable tool for growers as well. They will be able to find out how they are perceived in the palm buying community. And I would assume a seller will think twice about screwing a PalmTalk member.

[bgl]

There is no such thing as a truly neutral "buying experience". If everything goes according to plan, and the product (whether it's a palm or something else) is acquired without hassles and complications, then that in itself is of course positive (even though it should always be expected). One way or another the positive will outweigh the negative, OR the other way around, thus eliminating "neutral" as a possibility. And, there is a very easy way to figure this out: just ask yourself "would I do business with this company again?". If the answer is 'yes', then the experience was more positive than negative. And if the answer is 'no', well you figure it out...!

[LJG]

Great idea Dean and Bo. If someone wants to sell online, then they need to be help accountable - especially here at PT. If they run a crappy business and do not grasp customer service, people should know so ALL others that come after can be prepared. If they run a great business that actually cares about the product and not the dollar, people need to know.

I understand where some are coming from regarding negative feedback. I deal with it weekly online. As long as there is an outlet for the seller to state their side, then I like review systems. When they are closed to allow only reviews, it leads to issues for the seller when they can not defend themselves as others (even competitors) can post false stuff. So if you do allow negative, allow the seller to correct the issue and if agreed upon by the seller and the buyer, the seller can have the negative review removed. The seller MUST be given all opportunities to fix the issue.

One more thing, I think if you do leave negative reviews, one stipulation should be that you MUST have attempted some correspondence first with the seller. I do not feel it fair to allow someone to negatively affect a seller without even giving the seller the courtesy to fix it first.

Anyway...

[BS Man about Palms]

Burt Understands where I'm coming from. When used correctly the neutral count as a part of the total feedback can "warn" people or let them be prepared. To take it to a small extreme, let me try to explain:

If a seller had 100 positives and no neutrals or negatives, I would buy from that seller in a heartbeat, expect top notch service and great palms delivered quickly. I would be extremely disappointed if my experience was not like that, especially if later I found several people having the same experience, with no warning given to me.

If a seller had 80 positives and 20 neutrals, it would make me think twice. If another seller with all positives had an identical plant at the same or slightly higher price, I might think it might be worthwhile to pay extra to go with the proven seller. Or at least realize my expectations might not be met.

If the line was right at the "Yes or No", why would LOTS of company's pay for surveys regarding their buyers "shopping experience"? With the "Extremely satisfied, Satisfied, or Extremely Dissatisfied" being the normal range of answers sought.

As this drags on, the usefulness of "neutrals" will diminish. Although not intended it will be the result. It doesn't bother me, I just believe its a more accurate representation of a business' performance.

Edited November 29, 2008 by BS Man about Palms

[bgl]

Bill,

Just one last comment. I understand your point, and it's well taken, but it's already been covered. Yes, there's a big difference between "just barely satisfied" and "extremely satisfied" (for instance), but we need to have a system that's simple. The 'positive' and 'negative' options will accomplish that. If a buyer is very satisfied he, or she, can add a post to that effect, so that's where you have your answer in your theoretical '100 positive' or '80 positive/20 neutral'. A high number of positive remarks about a particular vendor (in relation to the number of positive votes) will obviously tell you that you're lilely to receive superior service. And a vendor with many positive votes but very few positive posts may still be OK to do business with but may not necessarily provide superior service.

But, we just started this, so let's see how things develop....

Bo-Göran

[PALM MOD]

And Bill,

There is nothing to prevent you from registering a positive vote and adding a qualifying comment to the effect:

"I voted positive, because the palms were well priced and in good condition. But I wish they would have arrived quicker and in a more secure container."

Or,

"I voted positive because this grower had extremely rare and hard to locate palms, and they were grown well. But doing business and getting answers to questions was difficult."

[tropicalb]

I guess I don't get it. Suppose there are 100 neutrals, does that make you more or less inclined to buy from that vendor?

depends on the comments associated with the neutral feedback.....the point is, it's a valid feedback response.

Burt,

Neutrals would not have comments. I could never require that a comment accompany a neutral vote. If I made it mandatory to comment when a neutral vote was registered, it would be a logistical nightmare. I would have to manually count every potential neutral comment, and compare it with the neutral vote count. Already there have been several negative votes that had no comment added. People do not always follow directions. In fact, they rarely do.

This will be easily doable with the few negatives that will come through, and you have to realize that growers will be monitoring their own ratings page, and will alert me when there is an unsubstantiated negative vote.

Don't forget that this will be a valuable tool for growers as well. They will be able to find out how they are perceived in the palm buying community. And I would assume a seller will think twice about screwing a PalmTalk member.

dean...neutral votes could be treated like positive ones in the sense that comments may be added if desired, but are not required.

i don't get where the problem is here at all.

[tropicalb]

And Bill,

There is nothing to prevent you from registering a positive vote and adding a qualifying comment to the effect:

"I voted positive, because the palms were well priced and in good condition. But I wish they would have arrived quicker and in a more secure container."

Or,

"I voted positive because this grower had extremely rare and hard to locate palms, and they were grown well. But doing business and getting answers to questions was difficult."

i give up.

[texasgator]

In other words it'll be set up like the BBB(Better Business Bureau) here in the states where usually only the negative remarks are reported? And only towards the business and not the consumer?I can't see it being anything like Ebay where the buyer and seller are requested to leave feedback on EVERY purchase. JMO

Donnie

[PALM MOD]

In other words it'll be set up like the BBB(Better Business Bureau) here in the states where usually only the negative remarks are reported? And only towards the business and not the consumer?I can't see it being anything like Ebay where the buyer and seller are requested to leave feedback on EVERY purchase. JMO

Donnie

I don't understand Donnie. Did you even give it a look? We have had 60 people leave feedback so far. And so far there are 60 positives. Where are these "only" negative remarks you are referring to?

I think the last stats on eBay were one out of every 400 purchases resulted in feedback of any kind. Requesting doesn't ever get you very much.

[Neofolis]

And, there is a very easy way to figure this out: just ask yourself "would I do business with this company again?". If the answer is 'yes', then the experience was more positive than negative. And if the answer is 'no', well you figure it out...!

Umm, I may be stupid, but in my case this isn't strictly accurate. I have purchased again from people with whom I have had bad experiences. There are various reasons that I would do this. Firstly, if the vendor is generally considered to be reliable, I may think that I was just unlucky in my bad experience and that it was out of the norm. Secondly, if I am in a situation where I can only buy from one source, I may use them despite a poor previous experience, as long as it was just poor and not terrible. Thirdly, where larger vendors are concerned, a bad experience dealing with one employee may not be indicative of the company as a whole. Lastly, I try not to judge too much on one experience. Unless there has been blatant deciept or an obvious unwillingness to fulfill the sellers commitment, I would usually give a second chance as an offer of redemption.

I can see a usefulness for neutral voting, but think that the ability to post comments should suffice. In a situation where I would want to add a neutral vote, I would instead not vote, but add a comment, explaining my reluctance to vote. Whilst I appreciate that not everyone who votes will want to post comments, I think that the comments are just as valuable as the votes in determining whether I would wish to purchase from someone. Assuming the vote is mostly positive, I would then read the comments to see if there are any other trends that I should be aware of.

[texasgator]

My apologies Mr. Moderator. I guess I was thinking more as the Garden Watch Dog works, where as a few people come back to post a positive remark, but usually it's more the neg. or unhappy buyers return to post there. I'm a big believer in "one oh shoot will kill a hundred atta boys. " Sorry!

I thought it was a must to post feedback on Ebay! LOL

[pogobob]

[bgl]

Corey,

No, you're not stupid, and you bring up an excellent point! After all, no rule without exceptions. But we can't cover all the variables, and we actually expect people to use common sense (I know, it's a brazen approach ). If someone has a bad experience with a vendor that has 100 positive votes here on PalmTalk, as well as plenty of positive comments, then it's probably a safe assumption that something went wrong along the way (after all, we all make mistakes...). Giving them a second chance is presumably a sensible option.

Bo-Göran

[joe_OC]

Good idea! I agree with Len, if growers are going to promote their business on this site, a rating system will let consumers see how well they do business on this site. Like most hobbyists, I buy from many different growers. I don't think that there is going to be biased voting. Hobbyist are going to tell if they have negative or positive experiences. That is what I will do.

[PALM MOD]

My apologies Mr. Moderator. I guess I was thinking more as the Garden Watch Dog works, where as a few people come back to post a positive remark, but usually it's more the neg. or unhappy buyers return to post there. I'm a big believer in "one oh shoot will kill a hundred atta boys. " Sorry!

I thought it was a must to post feedback on Ebay! LOL

No apologies necessary Mr. Gator.

I am aware of some growers complaints about the Garden Watch Dog, and have tried to work within the software we have to give growers adequate ways to defend themselves against competitors or unreasonable buyers.

And for clarification -- a difference between us and eBay is that you can not leave feedback unless you have completed a transaction on eBay. But no requirement to do so.

[John Case]

While I have not yet done business with any of the folks being polled, it seems a little silly that so far all of the comments are positive and noe negative, almost like voting for the next Commissar (no one wants to vote in the negative).

We are spending a lot of time and bandwidth on something that looks to me like nothing will be done as no valuable information ca be gleaned from 100% positive votes...

I want to talk about things like my baby King that just pushed up its 1st pinnate leaf, no more straps! Yippee!