Palm seedling/seed identification

[M3FSQ]

Hi all,

So I just started getting into palms. I ordered some cyrtostachys renda (red sealing wax palm) seeds on eBay and received these.

[M3FSQ]

This is one of them as a seedling

[M3FSQ]

I went collecting seeds when I got back to Hawaii and figured out I could just do that instead of buying them. This is what I collected next to a 20oz soda bottle.

Edited November 24, 2008 by M3FSQ

[M3FSQ]

Here is a seedling of a sealing wax palm that I grew from seed that I collected.

The seeds I received from eBay are like 1/8th the size of the seeds I collected.

Sorry for the blurry pictures but seeing if any of you can tell me what kind of seeds I received from eBay

Edited November 24, 2008 by M3FSQ

[M3FSQ]

Also, I pulled this out when I was collecting too. From looking around here I think it is a Pinanga Caesia. What do you guys think?

and in case you guys wanted to know what else I collected

-Areca Vestiaria (a bunch of just germinated seeds which are doing really well)

-Cyrtostachys Renda

-Neoveitchia Storckii (only a couple seeds, none have germinated)

-Chamberyonia Macrocarpa Var. C. Hookeri (first seed just shot out a big leaf)

-Pinanga Caesia? (from seedling, just shot out new reddsih colored leaf)

-Archontophoenix Purpurea (no seeds germinated yet)

-Mystery palm ( single stocked large palm with blackish/purple crownshaft, no seeds germinated yet. Seeds had purplish flesh)

-Dypsis Leptochelios

Edited November 24, 2008 by M3FSQ

[Palm Guy]

Here is a seedling of a sealing wax palm that I grew from seed that I collected.

The seeds I received from eBay are like 1/8th the size of the seeds I collected.

Sorry for the blurry pictures but seeing if any of you can tell me what kind of seeds I received from eBay

Hi,

That seedling in post number 4 is an Areca Vestiaria - not a Sealing wax.

The first photo of a seed and the second photo of seedlings may be Cyrtostachys Renda (sealing wax). Treat them with care! I lost most of mine to damping off. Good luck. The pinanga looks beautiful.

P.S. Your mystery palm sounds like it may be a Satakentia by description.

Mike

[M3FSQ]

Hi,

That seedling in post number 4 is an Areca Vestiaria - not a Sealing wax.

The first photo of a seed and the second photo of seedlings may be Cyrtostachys Renda (sealing wax). Treat them with care! I lost most of mine to damping off. Good luck. The pinanga looks beautiful.

P.S. Your mystery palm sounds like it may be a Satakentia by description.

Mike

You could be right about the sealing wax being a areca vestiaria as the groves I collected each from were pretty close to each other (collected from the ground). Do the seeds between the two appear different?

You may be right about the mystery palm being a Satakentia. I googled it, and from what I can see from the pictures the palm looked pretty close to that.

[Palm Guy]

Cyrtostachys seeds look similiar to Areca vestiaria seeds except that they are smaller. About a 1/3 of the size. Same shape though.

The first pic looks like it may be a C. Renda seed. The third pic is definitely a Vestiaria seed.

Satakentia's need to be fresh to germinate - or esle you wont get a decent germination (30-40% is considered good for these guys). Can u post a pic of those seeds? They should be elongated but thin...definitely a smaller diameter than the Areca Vestiarias.

[M3FSQ]

Satakentia's need to be fresh to germinate - or esle you wont get a decent germination (30-40% is considered good for these guys). Can u post a pic of those seeds? They should be elongated but thin...definitely a smaller diameter than the Areca Vestiarias.

I went and looked at the palm very briefly today( didn't have my camera on me, and my phone camera happened to suddenly not work anymore). I don't think it was a Satakentia as the trunk of the palm was greenish with pretty widely spaced out (can't think of the word for it, but the rings that run the entire length of the trunk of a palm). Maybe 6 or so inches between each ring. The crownshaft was like a black/purple/brown color. With purple flesh off, the seeds look similar to areca vestiaria but a little smaller. I will try to get pictures of the seed when I can.

[John in Andalucia]

Size comparison. Areca vestiaria top. I can't seem to germinate C. renda seeds.

[M3FSQ]

Size comparison. Areca vestiaria top. I can't seem to germinate C. renda seeds.

Ok, those Sealing wax seeds look about the exact size of the ones I received from eBay. I couldn't find any sealing wax palms flowering and didn't see any of those smaller seeds on the ground. I thought I was grabbing the right seeds off the ground as a ton of those areca vestiaria seedlings and seeds were right under the sealing wax palms. I checked it out again yesterday very briefly and it appeared all the new sealing wax palms that were big enough to see the red crownshaft were all offshoots of the main palm cluster. Can you separate the rhizome of a sealing wax palm and transplant?

[John in Andalucia]

Size comparison. Areca vestiaria top. I can't seem to germinate C. renda seeds.

Ok, those Sealing wax seeds look about the exact size of the ones I received from eBay. I couldn't find any sealing wax palms flowering and didn't see any of those smaller seeds on the ground. I thought I was grabbing the right seeds off the ground as a ton of those areca vestiaria seedlings and seeds were right under the sealing wax palms. I checked it out again yesterday very briefly and it appeared all the new sealing wax palms that were big enough to see the red crownshaft were all offshoots of the main palm cluster. Can you separate the rhizome of a sealing wax palm and transplant?

Yes, I believe you can, but I don't know the procedure. Still looking to buy my first one, and when I do, I will build a biodome and turn my Lipstick palm into a baby-maker. I hope a few experts can chip in here with some how-to advice on transplanting the little suckers!

[BigFrond]

I went collecting seeds when I got back to Hawaii and figured out I could just do that instead of buying them. This is what I collected next to a 20oz soda bottle.

I don't know about the others but post #3 looks like an Archontophoenix Purpurea seed.

[bgl]

I have never attempted to cut off suckers from a Cyrtostachys renda, but I understand it's possible BUT difficult. If you don't get a large enough rootball on the sucker, you're not going to be successful. I'm of the opinion 'better leave things alone'. Let the palm grow the way it's supposed to, and if you want more of them, either germinate from seeds OR buy seedlings. Why mess with a beautiful palm...!?

About the seeds - C. renda seeds are VERY easy to germinate but they must be fresh. If they're not fresh they will quickly lose viability. But I don't know the timeframe.

[John in Andalucia]

Let the palm grow the way it's supposed to, and if you want more of them, either germinate from seeds OR buy seedlings. Why mess with a beautiful palm...!?

Bo,

It is so difficult to raise tropical species out of their natural climate zone, where only there do they look as beautiful as you are accustomed to them. For people like me, there is no sitting back and watching it all grow to perfection, and nothing to be lost by transplanting C. renda rhizomes and learning something in the process. I don't consider it messing any more than grafting, pruning, bonsaiing or hybridizing.

[bgl]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not being critical of those who want to try this. And I'm all for trying new things and experimentation. It's just that based on everything I've heard, this is one tricky operation with questionable outcome so why mess with a beautiful palm when the likelihood of success is remote? C. renda, even under the best of circumstances, require constant water to look good. My guess is that when attempting to separate a sucker from the parent plant it's going to require LOTS of heat, light AND water. Unless someone in a non-tropical climate can create that kind of environment it's probably futile to try this.

[Palm Guy]

Bo's right in a sense that it is a difficult but not impossible operation. I think Gileno Machado (or someone else from Brazil) was able to get this done with good results - but he does have a great climate and a particular method for that sort of operation. I'd say try it if you have a few palms to play with. That way if you mess up and kill the plant it won't be the end of the world. I think Bo was just trying to save you the pain of losing a good palm or disfiguring it due to something that can be avoided...

They are very finicky palms - I had about 20 of them outside on my porch and they were surviving our winters just fine (took lows of 50F ). When I brought them inside to get faster growth in spring (Mar-April) is when I noticed a decline. Believe I may have over-watered them (I was new to palm cultivation and thought that since they were a water loving species they could take a few extra squirts of water). I'm now left with just one seedling that I intentionally left outside during winter to see how it would fair. Kinda ironic how the one I left outside is the only survivor. I believe that it too may die due to constant moving or root rot (I moved it at least 2 times in the last few months...dumb move).

If you're going to try it make sure you have all the factors (heat/light/humidity) available. And don't change the environments so suddenly. That too may have contributed to my seedling's demise. Alot of slow growing species like J. Altifrons, L. Mattenensis dont like to be moved too often or at all. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

[Palm Guy]

Here is a photo of my only Cyrtostachys seedling that survived outside on my porch all winter. This is what they should look like although this seedling has grown very slowly due to being outdoors with less care/heat etc and may have some stunting. Its about a year old and only one leaf! Seed is still attached.

I should also add that I lost ALOT of seedlings due to moving them back indoors. I lost my only Dypsis Baronii, a few Clinostigmas, and a Bentinckia from moving them inside for protection from Hurricane Bertha this summer. Either too much water, lack of light, changes in humidity or airflow did them in. It was a pretty rapid decline. The baronii had brown tips that moved down the leaves and within two weeks it was a goner.

[bgl]

Michael,

I don't believe you can give them too much water. Let me tell you about one of my recent experiences. A friend (locally) gave me a whole bunch of fresh C. renda seeds in July 2007. I put them in a couple of closed plastic containers, which I kept in a warm place up close to the ceiling on the second level in our house. They germinated quickly, and I began to pot them up about 7-8 months ago, but then I got sidetracked by other things. My trip Costa Rica for one thing, and even though I was only gone for a week and a half I was so busy with a bunch of other things when I came back that I just didn't get around to the remaining C. renda seedlings for a LONG time. In the meantime, they just sat in the (now) open plastic container in the shadehouse. The plastic container quickly filled up with rainwater. I got tired of emptying it every other day so after a while I ended up just leaving the water there, with hundreds of seedlings. The initial seedlings that I potted up had dinky little roots and I lost a bunch of those. 4-5 months later, when I potted up the remaining seedlings, which had been sitting in water for at least 3 months I noticed that they had fairly substantial roots, and I have lost very few of those. So, bottom line - I don't believe you can give the seedlings too much water. If you lose any of them, there's a different reason.

Bo-Göran

[Palmarum]

It is possible to separate a division of a Red Sealing Wax Palm, but I have gotten better success from separating a stolon rather than a sucker. Basically, they can not be allowed to dry out and make sure you do the initial cut with a clean, sharp tool.

Ryan

[M3FSQ]

I went collecting seeds when I got back to Hawaii and figured out I could just do that instead of buying them. This is what I collected next to a 20oz soda bottle.

I don't know about the others but post #3 looks like an Archontophoenix Purpurea seed.

The Archontophoenix Purpurea seeds I collected were rounder, more globe shaped than the seed shown.

[John in Andalucia]

I wonder if underwater (I mean, under the water) is less of a problem for C. renda than just soggy soil - where air, bacteria and temperature change can readily lead to damping off. I'm giving up on the little seedlings in preference of a couple of these larger plants at 20 inches tall. I found a website in Australia run by a young lady who sells them at a very reasonable price. As you can see, they are suckering, and whilst they may not make it long-term here, I decided it would be worthwhile to invest in a couple of specimens and have a shot at dividing one of them. Hopefully, it will make for interesting reading!

[amazondk]

I bought a decent sized C. renda the other day here in Manaus. But decent sized it is not that large, about 1.5 meters high with some nice suckers. The owner of the nursery told me that it would be fairly easy to remove these suckers making new plants. After thinking about it I have decided to just plant itis as. These palms are quite rare here still and are shipped from southern Brazil. The one I bouth cost 400 reais, which is about 180 USD with todays exchange rate. I hope to get some seeds to get some small trees started. From what I read the trees native habitat is in swampy areas. I would imagine that they would do well in areas where the Mauritia flexuosa grow here. I have such an area on my lot, but it is sort of out of sight. So, this one I am going to plant in a drier area. But, I imagine that the tree will still do fine, as long as it gets watered in our dry season.

dk

[gcyao]

...

Yes, I believe you can, but I don't know the procedure. Still looking to buy my first one, and when I do, I will build a biodome and turn my Lipstick palm into a baby-maker. I hope a few experts can chip in here with some how-to advice on transplanting the little suckers!

John and Aaron,

I don't consider myself an expert but I've done this successfully by following how it's commercially done here. The trick is to root the little suckers first by laying them onto the soil inside a suitable sized container, sort of like layering. Once enough roots have developed, the stolon can be cut.

Digging out rooted suckers in the ground doesn't work too well, because they seem to be very sensitive to root disturbance. Rooting the suckers first in a container assures that upon separating, the roots are not disturbed.

[Palm Guy]

Michael,

I don't believe you can give them too much water. Let me tell you about one of my recent experiences. A friend (locally) gave me a whole bunch of fresh C. renda seeds in July 2007. I put them in a couple of closed plastic containers, which I kept in a warm place up close to the ceiling on the second level in our house. They germinated quickly, and I began to pot them up about 7-8 months ago, but then I got sidetracked by other things. My trip Costa Rica for one thing, and even though I was only gone for a week and a half I was so busy with a bunch of other things when I came back that I just didn't get around to the remaining C. renda seedlings for a LONG time. In the meantime, they just sat in the (now) open plastic container in the shadehouse. The plastic container quickly filled up with rainwater. I got tired of emptying it every other day so after a while I ended up just leaving the water there, with hundreds of seedlings. The initial seedlings that I potted up had dinky little roots and I lost a bunch of those. 4-5 months later, when I potted up the remaining seedlings, which had been sitting in water for at least 3 months I noticed that they had fairly substantial roots, and I have lost very few of those. So, bottom line - I don't believe you can give the seedlings too much water. If you lose any of them, there's a different reason.

Bo-Göran

Bo, thanks for that. I believe you may be right. Especially considering they can be grown in standing water. There must be a pathogen running around my place because I am having very little luck here! It could be the mix as well. I've noticed fewer incidents on palms growing with some native soil in the mix. Maybe nutrient deficiencies are allowing pathogens to attack my palms?? Salt in my tap water?? Not sure what it is but I'm definitely going to get to the bottom of it.

I just watered my surviving C. REnda seedling a few days ago and bam - Next day I came home and it started to wilt. I pulled it out of the soil to examine and noticed the same thing I found on some of my Foxtails and C.Samoenses. ROOT ROT. There was a discolored portion of one of the main roots. Leaf started to fold in. I'm pissed...

So although the can take copious amounts of water they can still get root rot be it through pathogens or poor nutrition/cultivation practices.

Cheers,

[John in Andalucia]

I finally bought a couple of Lipstick Palms - they're being shipped from Australia on Friday, and I think they are a good deal. My mother wants one in her new study so that will be her Christmas complete. Here's a shot of them in the nursery. A very nice young woman over there is selling these for 12.50 USD each plus postage, and I think that's a good deal for a 20" clumping C. renda! Anyone else agree?

[pdleft]

Tonight will be a good test for Cyrtostachys here in Loxahatchee. It is supposed to drop to 43 tonight. I grow in a shadehouse with no plastic and have not lost one yet.(knock on wood) I brought the babies in and put them on the hot tub for the night but the 10 gallons are too big to move. They have been grown outdoors and have not been damaged yet even tho the weather has gone as low as 46 this year. I am also trying to divide suckers only if they are on stolens and have their own roots. I did put them directly into water as I cut them as was advised on this forum. It's too early to tell if they will survive.

I always hold my breath on these cold evenings because I know that I am pushing the envelope with these plants.

[John in Andalucia]

Tonight will be a good test for Cyrtostachys here in Loxahatchee. It is supposed to drop to 43 tonight. I grow in a shadehouse with no plastic and have not lost one yet.(knock on wood) I brought the babies in and put them on the hot tub for the night but the 10 gallons are too big to move. They have been grown outdoors and have not been damaged yet even tho the weather has gone as low as 46 this year. I am also trying to divide suckers only if they are on stolens and have their own roots. I did put them directly into water as I cut them as was advised on this forum. It's too early to tell if they will survive.

I always hold my breath on these cold evenings because I know that I am pushing the envelope with these plants.

Betty,

That is encouraging to hear about the survival temps. I can keep my greenhouse at just above 48F in extreme conditions, though 53F-54F is about as low as it usually gets with the heater on. As someone said on another thread, we are having January weather right now. Overnight lows here, are due to return to normal by the weekend.

I was advised by the vendor of my Lipstick Palms that 15 Celsius, or 59F is the acceptable low, but I imagine there is some tolerance in there.

[SoulofthePlace]

Bad, slow, lazy, dishonest, greedy, arrogant service at palm tree nurseries (online, ebay, offline) ruin this hobby.

Edited June 23, 2015 by SoulofthePlace