jubaea x butia" versus "butia x jubaea

[HKO2008]

Hello all,

i am Henri from the Netherlands. Over here, we can grow a lot of palms. Even more than most people know.

I was wondering, since i am taking a serious interest in the hybrids, what are the main differences between jubaea x butia" and "butia x jubaea"? I mean in appearance, speed of growth, hardiness and such?

Greetings from a cold and wet The Netherlands,

Henri

[iamjv]

Hello Henri, as you may know, the first name in the hybrid is the mother plant. As such, the palm will generally have more characteristics of the mother than the father. I think either hybrid would work for you, especially with good drainage at the planting sight. Best of luck. Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Jv,

thanks for the answer!

I have the opportunity to get a jubaeaxbutia X butia [JxB]xB over here and i think i will take that chance. With jubaea on the mother side it should look somewhat more like a jubaea. I also saw posting on this and other forums, talking about the much faster growth of this hybrid, compared to the 'plain' jubaea. With some root stimulator (to reduce transplanting shock) and good fertilisation, i hope it will grow to be a beautifull palmtree which will be hardy here.

Over here Butia Eriospatha does much, much better than Butia Capitata. Next big hybrid could be a Butia sp. Gigantea (looks like a giant Eriospatha, but less droopy leaves) x Jubaea. That would be a very big and hardy palmtree...

Henri

[iamjv]

Interesting that B. Eriospatha does better than Capitata there, why is that??? Good luck with the hybrid. Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Jv,

thank you.

Eriospatha comes from a cooler region with more rain and heavier frosts in winter. So they are more frost hardy anyway. They keep growing under much cooler conditions than Capitata. Also, if they are damaged in winter they grow out of it sooner and earlier in the season. We have a cool and wet climate, like the UK. Therefore the Eriospatha is the best choice since on all points it is more accustomed to our climate. So for Texas it would maybe be a bad choice, given the fact that you have a relatively dry and hot climate which is better suited for Capitata.

Greetings,

Henri

Interesting that B. Eriospatha does better than Capitata there, why is that??? Good luck with the hybrid. Jv

[Neofolis]

Hi Henri,

My [JxB]xB does fine in the UK, despite being reasonably small and in a pot. The leaves are totally unaffected by our winters and it even continues to grow, albeit very slowly, during the milder periods of winter.

[iamjv]

Thanks Henri for the info.... capitata does ok here but often will die suddenly in my region of Texas due to root rot from our clay soils that can hold water. I live in a rockier area and don't have that problem but I have to constantly feed mine to keep it green... I've heard of a large eriospatha in northern Alabama which gets much more rain than we do and yet still have very warm summers. Guess the extra water might be the key then... thanks again. Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Neofolis,

thanks for the info! Your climate and mine are about the same i guess, so your results are promising!

Dear Jv,

Eriospatha's are being grown in clay soils in Brasil. However, this seriously hampers their growth in less warmer climates, so your soil is the key here. Capitata should even have more problems than Eriospatha with clay soils.

I also apply root stimulator to my palms. That way they get a bigger root system and have access to more water, since they have more root to tap water and nutritients with. This could also help, besides adding some garden compost to your soil.

Henri

[iamjv]

Henri,

I had heard that root stimulator doesn't really do anything for palms??? I'd be interested in hearing any differences you've noted.

Getting back to the hybrids, sure wish someone would use B. Eriospatha for a hybrid with jubaea or syagrus, considering it seems to be hardier and maybe more tolerate of certain soils... Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Jv,

root stimulator works for me. A Livistona Nitida went root-ballistic when i applied root stimulator. It grows healthy and strong.

In the Netherlands a big nursery has seeds of a cross between Butia Eriospatha and Sygrus 'Santa Catarina' (the cold hardiest Syagrus available). That cross is outperforming by far the usual Butyagrus in cold hardiness. Next year seedlings will become available to the public.

Henri

Henri,

I had heard that root stimulator doesn't really do anything for palms??? I'd be interested in hearing any differences you've noted.

Getting back to the hybrids, sure wish someone would use B. Eriospatha for a hybrid with jubaea or syagrus, considering it seems to be hardier and maybe more tolerate of certain soils... Jv

[Cemunnos.nl]

Hello Jv and Henri!

Rootstimulator works quite well, when you not over use it, and always in combination with other palm fertilizer!

When you over use it, leaves will become yellow, when you don't combine the use of it with fertilizer, not much will happen, because the new roots need fertilizer to keep on growing and recovering!

When you have clay soils, you better use Perlite in your soil, so water will be gone quickly.

Regards, Dennis

Edited November 8, 2008 by Cemunnos.nl

[PalmGuyWC]

Henri,

I just saw your letter posted Oct. 28. Patrick Schafer has some Bujubagrus, as well as a lot of other combinations of the Cocoid hybrids. His E-mail address is PLS@Hughes.net He is located in N. Calif.

Also, in reference to Bujubaea X Butia, I have one and it looks like a Butia, but is green, and so far has no thorns along the petioles. It has a lot of fiber at the base of the petioles. It should be more cold hardy with some Jubaea in it.

Dick

[swolf]

Henri,

I just saw your letter posted Oct. 28. Patrick Schafer has some Bujubagrus, as well as a lot of other combinations of the Cocoid hybrids. His E-mail address is PLS@Hughes.net He is located in N. Calif.

Also, in reference to Bujubaea X Butia, I have one and it looks like a Butia, but is green, and so far has no thorns along the petioles. It has a lot of fiber at the base of the petioles. It should be more cold hardy with some Jubaea in it.

Dick

Hi Dick, how about throwing us a clue about the "top secret" new hybrid seeds that are still forming? The 'better than a coconut' characterization has me intrigued.

Steve

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Steve,

I was told to keep mum about this possible new hybrid. At this point it's all speculation since it was a late blooming inflorescence, and the forming fruit are still small. The encouraging part is....the fruit are holding and haven't aborted after about two months. We should know more about this possible new hybrid in the spring.

Dick

[iamjv]

Dennis,

Thanks for the input on the root stimulator, interesting info.

Henri,

I can validate that the plants you can get from Patrick are exceptional! I've gotten a number of plants from him over several years now and have always been delighted with the condition of the plants and how they turned out (hybrization). My latest acquistions from him (JxBXJ and butia yatay) came in last week. Great plants.

Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Jv,

Even though it is not a hybrid, I think you will be very pleased with B. yata. It is my most beautiful Butia and the most blue/silver in the summer heat. It holds many more fronds and leaf blades than the other Butias. It's hard to describe the differances from the other Butias, as you have to see it to appreciate it. Instead of calling it B. yata, Patrick Schafer calls it "Dick's favorite." He has pet names for all the palms that he works with and hybridizes.

Dick

[iamjv]

Hello Dick,

Yes I am sure I'll be happy with it. I've seen only a few photos of them and agree with you that it's the best looking butia. Has Patrick tried using it or eriospatha for hybridization ???? Seems like it'd be a better choice than capitata... If he hasn't, I'm sure it's all a matter of pollen not being available.

Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Jv,

As a matter of fact, Patrick has sucessfully crossed B. yata with Syagrus and also Bujubaea. I'm not sure if he's tried Parajubaea with the Yata yet. Also he's crossed B. Paraguayensis with Syagrus, Parajubaea cocoides and also P. sunkha. (The B. paraguayensis has a short fat trunk and a very heavy leaf texture). It's to early to say what the hybrids may look like.

Lately he has been using Syagrus as the mother tree and those hybrids should look entirely different from the crosses the other way around. The Syagrus are difficult to cross because they have so many flowers on them that have to be emasculated and then pollinated, and it takes a long ladder to reach the inflorescenses. We also don't know how cold hardy the Syagrus hybrids will be, but they should be somewhat more hardy than just pure Syagrus.

Unfortunately I don't have a B. eriospatha, but there is a mature one growing in our Oakland Palmatum where pollen could be collected. I'm not familiar with the tree, but Patrick says for all practical purposes, it looks just like a B. capitata except for the rust tomentum on the spaths. I'm sure our friends in S. America might disagree with that statement.

My favorite hybrid so far is Butia X Parajubaea cocoides. It's a handsom palm, grows fast and appears to be very cold hardy. Threre have been reports of it taking 18F (-7.5C), and even 14F (-10C) with no damage, but that could vary depending on the individual.

Dick

[iamjv]

Well I guess one of those B. Yata hybrids will be my next acquisition... I also have a Parajub X Butia and its just now getting some pinnate fronds... look forward to seeing how it turns out. My PxB took 23F this past winter and our ice storm the year before that, without a scratch... Jv

[HKO2008]

Thanks to all!!!

Dick, i have purchased a jubutiagrus (JxB X Q) from a local company that has them from Patric. Next time, i will go to the direct source, since that will save me a lot of money. Thanks for the information! And also thanks for the email address, since i could only contact him via this board.

I also purchased a JubaeaxButia X Butia from an ebay seller in Germany and i could get it at a discount price, so not more expensive than buying directly from Patric i guess.

I also read that Patric has done Butia x Parajubaea Sunkha and Butia x Parajubaea Torallyi. These would be far more cold hardy and probably faster growing than Butia x Parajubaea Cocoides. So i think i will have to be patient on that cross.

Dick,

when you get the chance, try to get Butia Eriospatha pollen and use that instead of Butia Capitata. At least for our climate that would be a far better option than Capitata. We don't have mature specimens yet and even if we had, we are not sure pollination will be succesfull and give viable seed in our climate. With Eriospatha, you are sitting on a goldmine.

Jv,

i know Dennis from Cemunnos and he has the same positive results using root stimulator i have. So that product really does something.

Dou you have a Parajubaea x Butia or a Butia x Parajubaea? And is it with Cocoides in the mix or Sunkha or Torallyi???

Henri

Edited November 10, 2008 by HKO2008

[PalmGuyWC]

Henri & Jv,

I should point out that all the Butia X Parajubaea hybrids from Patrick are from Butias as the mother plant, so they should be called Butia X Parajubaea. There is only one P. cocoides in the SF Bay area that is accessable, and it's to tall to pollinate, however it has been done.

As I stated above, I don't have a Butia eriospatha and the only one I know of in the Bay Area is in the Oakland Palmatum. I suppose pollen could be collected from that tree, but it would be best to pollinate the tree in the park, but the seeds would probably be stolen in a public park. Parajubaeas are not generally used as the mother plant, as they are to hard to reach, and the seeds take to long to germinate.

Thus far all of the Butia X Parajubaea hybrids have been from P. cocoides since the other pollens were not available until recently. Soon Butia X with TVT and Sunkha should become availabe. They are only very small seedlings now, or haven't germinated yet. (fingers crossed).

I agree, B. eriospatha crossed with either TVT or Shunkha should make very interesting hybrids, also eriospatha X Syagrus or Jubaea.

Dick

[iamjv]

Henri, I have a Butia C. x Parajubaea Cocoides that I got from Patrick. I'll have to wait for the other parajub crosses to be available as I think they'll be better suited for my climate than Cocoides. None the less it has proven some what hardy thus far as it took 23F this past winter and didn't have any damage at all. Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

It's not conclusive yet, but I have a feeling the hybrid plants will be as cold hardy as the mother tree.......Butia, Jubaea. It will be interesting to see how hardy they are with Syagrus as the mother tree. None of these cocoid hybrids have been tested to ultimate cold damage yet.......and I'm not wishing for it, but it will happen sooner or later. I hope we will all report when that happens.

Dick

[iamjv]

Dick, we here in central TX are over due for one of those artic blasts which hit our area every 10 years or so (last one 19 yrs ago)... so yes they haven't been tested here either. Sure wish we could count on them not being tested but I fear that won't happen....

On a positive note, with the community of palm friends we have, as well as the increasing distribution of these hybrids, we should get good detailed data as time pass on and we learn of the plants hardiness. Wouldn't it be wonderful to find out that these hybrids can survive the worst of our conditions.... Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

I think I determined in the winter of '06/'07, which was one of the most severe in N. Calif. in several years, that the Parajubaeas show foliage damage at or below 25F (-3.5C). My low that year was 23.5F and I had about two weeks of below freezing temps followed by a couple more cold episodes. I have a P. TVT growing about 20' away from a Butia X Parajubaea, and the P. TVT was about 60% burned, while the hybrid was untouched. Both palms are growing in the open with no overhead protection and they were covered with heavy frost on many nights.

I have a much larger P. cocoides growing in another area with a little overhead protection, and in the same cold spell it was severely damaged. P. cocoides seems to be the most cold sensitive of the Parajubaeas, and mine has been defoliated about 3 times over the years, but it's recovered each time, but it takes about 3 years to have a full crown again. For me, P. TVT is much faster growing and robust. This past winter my low was 25.5 F and I had no foliage damage to any of the Parajubaeas. It seems just a half a degree makes a difference.

In a few years I expect we will see Butia X P. TVT and Jubaea X P. TVT and they should be very robust and cold hardy.

Dick

[iamjv]

Those would be the two I am waiting on.... along with many other hardy palm nuts. Wishing Patrick lots of luck with those two hybrids in particular! Jv

[Alberto]

Henri,

I had heard that root stimulator doesn't really do anything for palms??? I'd be interested in hearing any differences you've noted.

Getting back to the hybrids, sure wish someone would use B. Eriospatha for a hybrid with jubaea or syagrus, considering it seems to be hardier and maybe more tolerate of certain soils... Jv

I´m trying to obtain Jubaea pollen to hybridize my eriospathas!

[PalmGuyWC]

Alberto,

My Jubaea blooms in May or June. If you can't find Jubaea pollen, how about Syagrus?

Dick

[HKO2008]

Alberto,

that would make a very desirable hybrid!!! It will be a little more massive than Butia Capitata x Jubaea i guess.

Also, Nigel is working on Butia Eriospatha x Syagrus Romanzoffiana 'Santa Catarina' (even hardier than Syagrus Rom Litoralis!) and Butia Odorata x Syagrus Romanzoffiana 'Santa Catarina'.

So, there are going to be more holy grails in the future. I can't wait!

Also, Alberto, if you can not find jubaea, you might try emailing Carlos del Rio in Chili. That guy is the expert on jubaea and i find him to be very helpfull in every way. He might be able to send you pollen.

Henri

Edited November 12, 2008 by HKO2008

[Exotic Life]

Hi,

Interesting, all that possible new hybrids that are maybe doing well in our region. When it's has been tested in the next couple years, it can be a palm paradise in Holland with some beautifull palm species if anything is going right. I think that only the prices, that will be high for that possible new hybrids can stop the people to buy that hybrids.

I've been interested for sure in that possible cross between the Butia Eriospatha and Sygrus 'Santa Catarina', it this is going right it must be a great palm species for the coast line maybe?

@ Jv, Do you have a picture of your Butia C. x Parajubaea Cocoides, it sounds like a very tropical palm species.

Robbin

[kristof p]

i can not wait to try a ButiaxParajubaea but i think i wil wait until the Butia eriospatha hybrids with P. tvt or sunkha are more availeble. if it is true that most of their cold hardines comes from the mother plant than this would be a very interesting palm for my climate. i dont know if B. eriospatha is much hardier to cold than capitata but they do grow faster and seem to have a longer growing season in my climate than B. capitata. Parajubaea toryalli var toryalli only stops growing during the really cold periods and also shows some hardines. my P. tvt also grows fast and has survived -5.9°C without any damage but it was (and now it is again) protected with a roof to keep it dry. a hybrid of these two species with Butia as the mother would result in not only a fast growing cold hardy palm (maybe even faster than both parents?, hybrid vigor )) but also one that would grow almost al the year round. not so many plants grow during our winters and definetely not palm species . the fact that it is also a very good looking plant is a nice bonus. i realy hope they come availeble soon.

what about a Butia Hybrid with Allagoptera arenaria? i wonder how this hybrid would look like...

Edited November 12, 2008 by kristof p

[iamjv]

Robbin,

I'll have to try and get a shot of it this weekend... I get home late from work and it's dark already by the time I get home. Mine is only the size of a 3 gal plant, it should be bigger but I almost lost it two years ago (I think to a fungus). It's done much better this year, as I think it finally established itself in the ground. It's been a slow grower for me, hoping it'll speed up. Anyhow, I'll take a shot of it this weekend and post it. Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Jv,

i would be really interested to see a picture of it! Strange that it grows so slow, since at other places it grows much faster, like in the UK. Maybe it still needs a cool climate like it's father the Parajuabaea?

Henri

[PalmGuyWC]

My B X P and P. TVT were both planted about 3.5 years ago. They were both slightly root bound 5 Gal sizes with some divided fronds. They both speeded up their growth once in the ground. (They never hesitated for a moment). The B X P grows somewhat faster than the Parajubaea. I get about 6 new fronds a growing season on the P. TVT and about 8 on the B X P.

I think once the base of the trunk begins to swell and more mass for new roots to grow is when they speed up growth, but I think this is true for most palms. This past spring, which was cool and late, I put a stake in the ground and marked the growth rate on the Parajubaea and the B X P. The emerging fronds on the B X P grew 1 inch a night and the Parajubaea TVT at 4/5 an inch a night. Both palms have almost doubled in size each growing season. My nights are getting chilly now (50F, give or take a few degrees, and the growth rate is slowing). Once my average night time low falls below 50F, virtually all of my palms stop growing until spring.

I did note last spring that the first palms to start growing were my Trachycarpus wagnerianus. They had already grown 3 or 4 new fronds before the other palms showed signs of growth.

Dick

[Kris]

Gentlemen lovely suggestions & interaction but no thread of this magnititude is complete without any visuals ?

Since the visual-man(me) is visiting this thread regularly for any stills of those hybrids..but returns back with disappointment..

thanks & love,

Kris

[merrill]

QUOTING Henri, Post #10:

In the Netherlands a big nursery has seeds of a cross between Butia Eriospatha and Sygrus 'Santa Catarina' (the cold hardiest Syagrus available). That cross is outperforming by far the usual Butyagrus in cold hardiness. Next year seedlings will become available to the public.END QUOTE

Henri

I'd be very grateful to have the name of the Netherlands vendor of Butia eriospathe X Sta. Caterina seed. You may prefer to send me a personal message to merrill on this board.

Many Thanks,

merrill

[iamjv]

Henri & Kris, no worries I'll post a picture or two of my hybrids this weekend.

Dick, that growth rate is encouraging. I am hoping now that my BxP seems to be established, that it'll grow nicely next year. Speaking of getting cold it's been nice up till now, but this weekend they are calling for 34F in town, so I'll probably see 32F or so. Hello winter!

Jv

[iamjv]

Here are a couple of shots of my Butia C x Parajub C. I've had this for 3 yrs now, bought as a seedling from Patrick. I nearly lost the palm the first year I had it, I believe to a fungus but it recovered. The palm went into the ground mid-2006. Survived the ice storm of Jan 2007 and the 23F temps of winter 2007/08.

The first 2 pictures here were taken at mornings first light which hits this protected corner of my garden. The palm is planted here for the micro climate it has plus the fact that it gets the first mornings sun light during the winter months. Third picture is an over head shot of the palm and the last shot is a little later in the morning in the shadows of over head palms.

Jv

[HKO2008]

Dear Jv,

thank you very much for the pictures! It looks great and the growth rate seems to be also high. So this plant has been in the ground for about 3 years? Did it speed up last year?

Dear Dick,

thank you for all the valuable information you give us. It has really stirred up interest in hybrids in the low countries.

Henri

Here are a couple of shots of my Butia C x Parajub C. I've had this for 3 yrs now, bought as a seedling from Patrick. I nearly lost the palm the first year I had it, I believe to a fungus but it recovered. The palm went into the ground mid-2006. Survived the ice storm of Jan 2007 and the 23F temps of winter 2007/08.

The first 2 pictures here were taken at mornings first light which hits this protected corner of my garden. The palm is planted here for the micro climate it has plus the fact that it gets the first mornings sun light during the winter months. Third picture is an over head shot of the palm and the last shot is a little later in the morning in the shadows of over head palms.

Jv

Edited November 17, 2008 by HKO2008

[iamjv]

Yes it did speed up this past year but that isn't saying to much considering the previous two years it merely survived... I am hoping for some good growth from it this coming year as it seems to be healthy now. Jv