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Pics of Huge Sabals...

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edbrown_III

Heres a photo of the trunk

post-562-1223568307_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

Heres one of my favorite sheperds as scale

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edbrown_III

one more try

post-562-1223568439_thumb.jpg

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MattyB

Ed, that really shows how large it is with the dog in there.

I know I posted this before, but here's a huge Sabal growing in my neighbors yard. See the large papery sheeting up near where the petioles attach? Does this help I.D. it? Anyone have any clues as to what it is?

post-126-1223571200_thumb.jpg

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cfkingfish

Matt-

There is a term for the papery like sheaths that form at the base of the petiole on Sabals, Scott Zona would know the name. That looks like Sabal maritima to me.

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sonoranfans
Ed, that really shows how large it is with the dog in there.

I know I posted this before, but here's a huge Sabal growing in my neighbors yard. See the large papery sheeting up near where the petioles attach? Does this help I.D. it? Anyone have any clues as to what it is?

Beautiful sabal with a massive trunk matty. With the leaf bases removed it appears to be 2 1/2 ft in diameter. When reading about sables all over the net alot of descriptions often dont seem to match up with the "identified" species at different sites. Sabal causiarum supposedly has grey/green fronds and a massive(thick) trunk(upt to 4' in diameter). Perhaps that is what your neighbor has. Other ID's are made from fruits, sizes and colors. The costpalmate nature seems to be another characteristic that is sometimes used. As a physical scientist, these assessments appear to be subjective, ill defined, especially when the characteristics are so variable within one "species". Surely that one is NOT sabal palmetto that appears so scrawny in the SE USA.

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cfkingfish

Here are a couple pictures of big Sabals. This one was near the coast south of Cancun, just growing there wild I assume. It looks like an S. yapa, but who knows. The bottom one is the huge Sabal that is supposedly the big S. yapa. This plant was purchased from DeArmand Hull 15 years ago.

IMG_1433-1.jpg

DSCF0617.jpg

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MattyB

Thanks Christian and Tom for your info.

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edbrown_III

Matty,

its hard to classify it without the seeds but Kingfishes observation of S. maritima would be a good logical conclusion . Note how massive the petioles are. Note my earlier post of S. maritima --- S. domingensis also has these large petioles.. I have other Sabals around the yard but none have the very wide petioles that I have noted in S. domingensis and S. maritima. These are vegetative characteristics not the floral/ reproductive characteristics that Dr. Zona uses for differentiating the species. Bear in mind that Sabals are honey bee pollinated and most of the sources are botanical gardens and enthusiasts yards so you would get some possible hybrids.

Interesting thread-- I am really enjoying the photos posted and some of the learned commentary

Best regards,

Ed

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sonoranfans
Matty,

its hard to classify it without the seeds but Kingfishes observation of S. maritima would be a good logical conclusion . Note how massive the petioles are. Note my earlier post of S. maritima --- S. domingensis also has these large petioles.. I have other Sabals around the yard but none have the very wide petioles that I have noted in S. domingensis and S. maritima. These are vegetative characteristics not the floral/ reproductive characteristics that Dr. Zona uses for differentiating the species. Bear in mind that Sabals are honey bee pollinated and most of the sources are botanical gardens and enthusiasts yards so you would get some possible hybrids.

Interesting thread-- I am really enjoying the photos posted and some of the learned commentary

Best regards,

Ed

That sabal maritima(?) matty posted is an incredible specimen. the trunk size is just stunning and the color is outstanding as well. It sure looks beefier, happier than this one from fairchild gardens.

http://palmguide.org/image.php?image=931029H_2005052641291

But it does look quite similar in other respects.

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sonoranfans
Good show on the photos Eric Frito et al..

Heres one of my fav orite Sabals S. domingensis-- collected from seed in D.R. in 88'--- I is testing photos sizes so my appologies if this is a missfire.

Best wishes,

Ed

Ed,

I am having a hard time getting a read on the size of your sabal. I have seen sheperds as big as a bear(160lbs) and as small as a border collie(50-60 lbs). Either way it has a nice stout trunk, and I love the bluish leaf bases. Any idea of how long the petioles are? The leaflets seem very erect, not drooping at all, has the palm always been like this? I have seen "droopy" leaflet tips and erect ones from the same parent tree, its confusing.

Christian,

That sabal yapa appears to have 8 ft long petioles and 6 foot fans, WOW, an amazing palm! It looks like it could end up being 20' wide or more at maturity, I love it!

Edited by sonoranfans

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edbrown_III

The leaves have alway been stiff.... I just have the experience of this one batch of seeds. thou. Some of the ones posted for S domingensis look different.

I have about 5 around the yard and vicinty --- maybe 6 foot petioles. very wide perhaps 4 inches or so. This one came from seeds from habitat. when it has flowered / seeded the fruit is real large. I distributed a bunch of seeds when I visited Ca a fewe years ago to the Northern Ca chapter so progeny is around. Its 3 foot or so wide.. in trunk diameter --

I have fairly rich soil for Florida and a high water table -- Fairchild is a few inches of soil above coral rock -- Fantastic climate for palms but the substrate is poor. I live about 350 miles north so much cooler and very hard freezes.

Relative to the The S maritima (?); was seed collected from Rio Piedras Jardin Botanico in PR... The ID I backed into from discussions on this board. The late John Bischock had one--- same massive petioles --ones at Fairchild have the massive petioles. Paul Craft had posted some photos of S. maritima in Cuban habitat that also pointed to the identity of mine. Mine is close to 20 years old but has never flowered so I cant be definitive. So of the ids on this board may be confounded by possible hybrids.

I have a few S. causeriums around the yard. These were collected in the woods in PR and St. Thomas. Petioles are not large like the S. domingensis and maritimas. Leaves are stiff . These Palms I collected them from are not like the classic photos of S. causerium that you see in the Palm books. The Ramey Base golf course has the large ones with smooth clean almost whitesh trunks.. The ones in the woods nearby are differnt.. The are stout but the trunk is not the smooth whitesh grey you see in the books. The ones I saw in St Thomas were simular to the ones in PR. These are the ones I got the seeds from. I have a few growing around the yard. Not as large as the S. maritimas (but planted in the woody understory).

I dont know if this is the mark of variation of S. causerium but most folks think of S. causerium as having this very massive whitish grey trunk. THis may the one that made it into cultivation though. This interestign thread is going to get me to reread Zonas monograph.. S. causerium is found in Cuba, DR, (Jaimaca Ithink) PR and USVI. There may be some vegetative variation so the fruit may be the only consistent feature for classification.

Best wihses,

Ed

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sonoranfans
The leaves have alway been stiff.... I just have the experience of this one batch of seeds. thou. Some of the ones posted for S domingensis look different.

I have about 5 around the yard and vicinty --- maybe 6 foot petioles. very wide perhaps 4 inches or so. This one came from seeds from habitat. when it has flowered / seeded the fruit is real large. I distributed a bunch of seeds when I visited Ca a fewe years ago to the Northern Ca chapter so progeny is around. Its 3 foot or so wide.. in trunk diameter --

I have fairly rich soil for Florida and a high water table -- Fairchild is a few inches of soil above coral rock -- Fantastic climate for palms but the substrate is poor. I live about 350 miles north so much cooler and very hard freezes.

Relative to the The S maritima (?); was seed collected from Rio Piedras Jardin Botanico in PR... The ID I backed into from discussions on this board. The late John Bischock had one--- same massive petioles --ones at Fairchild have the massive petioles. Paul Craft had posted some photos of S. maritima in Cuban habitat that also pointed to the identity of mine. Mine is close to 20 years old but has never flowered so I cant be definitive. So of the ids on this board may be confounded by possible hybrids.

I have a few S. causeriums around the yard. These were collected in the woods in PR and St. Thomas. Petioles are not large like the S. domingensis and maritimas. Leaves are stiff . These Palms I collected them from are not like the classic photos of S. causerium that you see in the Palm books. The Ramey Base golf course has the large ones with smooth clean almost whitesh trunks.. The ones in the woods nearby are differnt.. The are stout but the trunk is not the smooth whitesh grey you see in the books. The ones I saw in St Thomas were simular to the ones in PR. These are the ones I got the seeds from. I have a few growing around the yard. Not as large as the S. maritimas (but planted in the woody understory).

I dont know if this is the mark of variation of S. causerium but most folks think of S. causerium as having this very massive whitish grey trunk. THis may the one that made it into cultivation though. This interestign thread is going to get me to reread Zonas monograph.. S. causerium is found in Cuba, DR, (Jaimaca Ithink) PR and USVI. There may be some vegetative variation so the fruit may be the only consistent feature for classification.

Best wihses,

Ed

Thanks for the description of your experiences with these sabals Ed, nice to hear from someone with 20+ years growing these, especially from seed collected in habitat. One more question if I may ... when you say the domingensis fruit are large, do you have a measurement or estimate, like mm diameter? Thanks again for all the info, it seems growers that have alot of experience with sabals are not very common.

Best regards,

Tom

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MattyB

Thanks for the schooling guys. But, I don't see any pics of a Sabal that have that paper sheathing like the one in the pic I posted. It's not fiber, it's just one flat solid piece.

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BS Man about Palms

I'd swear that Don Hodel referenced Sabal causarium as the one with "the paper" when he gave his talk. I'll stick with that since thats what I said when I saw it in person.I may still be wrong though, but then so would Don. Unless I misunderstood him, and then it could be something else.

I know Matty understands perfectly what I just said.

Bill

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Tala

the papery leaf sheaths are ligules, useful in ID of some sps, (e.g. Liv. nitida from australis). And yes causiarum palms have these in abundance, not so much for domingensis. Not sure on maritima, also the fruit for these three overlap in size & shape to the point all three of these massive palms can be considered conspecific.

I have noticed some cultural diff.'s between them that helps me to distinguish two: domingensis is extremely fast growing (for the genus), easily the quickest of any Sabal incl. maurit's. They grow at twice the rate of causiarum. Which may help explain the next one - dom. palms can handle cold temps but here they burn in heavy frost. The caus. palms do not show any damage here be it low temps or heavy frost exposure.

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sonoranfans
the papery leaf sheaths are ligules, useful in ID of some sps, (e.g. Liv. nitida from australis). And yes causiarum palms have these in abundance, not so much for domingensis. Not sure on maritima, also the fruit for these three overlap in size & shape to the point all three of these massive palms can be considered conspecific.

I have noticed some cultural diff.'s between them that helps me to distinguish two: domingensis is extremely fast growing (for the genus), easily the quickest of any Sabal incl. maurit's. They grow at twice the rate of causiarum. Which may help explain the next one - dom. palms can handle cold temps but here they burn in heavy frost. The caus. palms do not show any damage here be it low temps or heavy frost exposure.

Thanks dave, for your input on these palms, understanding the unique characteristics has be a bit of a struggle for me, one I am not accustomed to. My sabal is probably a hybrid, a fast growing hybrid, it is in the process of opening its 10th spear of the year, and it has no sheathing described above. I sure would like to get my hands on some more sabals like maritima, domingensis or causarium. I suppose that is another disadvantage of living in the desert. It nice to be able to learn from some florida folks that have seen, and grown some of these palms, some of the most majestic of all palms in my opinion. Certainly, for a zone 9 grower, a big sabal is hard to beat for visual impact.

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Creekside

I've wondered about this big boy (growing at a condo on Siesta Key) for a long time. It's massive. Might it be a S. causiarum?

post-727-1223658869_thumb.jpg

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Creekside

Here's a closer shot of the crown...

post-727-1223659015_thumb.jpg

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Creekside

I should have put something in the photo for scale to show the big caliper of the trunk.

post-727-1223659175_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

MattyB,

I went out this morning to look for the ligules that Dave noted. I hadnt thought of this as diagnostic but evidently it is.

The shot a few photos that I will load on next few messages. S domingensis had the most (atleast in my yard)

The S. causerium had them too in varyngn degrees. The S. maritima didnt

these 2 photos are S. domengensis closeup of hte paper ligule

post-562-1223660248_thumb.jpg

post-562-1223660303_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

Close up of crowon of S. domengensis . These grow slow in NOrth Florida I got one up to about 10 feet of trunk in 19 years (died suddlenly last year. THe brothers of the seed batch are emerging trunks . From my memory they went from about 3 feet to 10 feet in a short while. The S. causerium are much slower as Dave reports /

post-562-1223660348_thumb.jpg

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MattyB

Thanks Ed, that's a great shot. So I'm thinking that rules out S. dominguensis for my neighbors palm. You've got ligues but very small and with lots of fiber. I think S. causiarum is a good guess but the trunk isn't white. So does that narrow it to S. maritima? Hmmmm Maybe we should change the name of the Sabal genus to Dypsis. I'm loving this discussion though because I've always liked Sabal but have no clue how to I.D. them.

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edbrown_III

Note photo of S. maritima no ligules just fiber.... This is about as fast as S. domengensis at least here in North FL

post-562-1223660787_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

Heres several photos of S. causerium around the yard. These are understory one has grown very fast though -- all were collected as seeds in early to mid 90s from PR and USVI

post-562-1223660880_thumb.jpg

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MattyB

Yep, my neighbor's is a Dypsis for sure.

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edbrown_III

see presence of ligules -- this has grown fairly fast as understory here still not much for 15+ years

post-562-1223660943_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

closer up on one of ligules in discussion

Best regards,

Ed

post-562-1223661065_thumb.jpg

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edbrown_III

MattyB ,

ligules / paper are present in S causerium & domgensis, S. maritima doesnt have any. we have ruled out everything but S. domengensis and causerium.

your palm could be S. causerium or Domengensis its crown is big like S. domengensis --- that would be my guess

\\\

Best regards,

Ed

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edbrown_III

Catherine,

It sure looks liek S. causerium to me.

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MattyB

Here's a pic of one of the Sabals they have growing at the entrance to Ho'omaluhia on Oahu.

What do you think this is?

post-126-1223662658_thumb.jpg

post-126-1223662697_thumb.jpg

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MattyB

Here's another. Looks similar. I've got seedlings from these guys so I'd like to know what they are. I think someone suggested they look like S. dominguensis before.

post-126-1223662775_thumb.jpg

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iamjv

Great info and pics on the big sabals... really enjoying this thread. If anyone is going to have seeds available please advise the rest of us... thanks. Jv

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Tala

Catherine I vote for causiarum as well.

Ed, I burst out of that closet many yrs ago. I contend that most splitters downplay environmental factors, these can change a single palm's complexion in many ways, foliar, thickness of stem, size of crown, etc. I've no doubt that these Caribbean Sabal are all one & the same - mebbe they weren't in the big inning (go Rays) but they are now.

I actually put on some shoes to climb up my dom. palm stem (no bare wood yet) but 20 ft of growth in just over a decade from seed, there are ligules present but they are noticeably smaller in size than the ones on my caus. which are lengthy, long enough to fold down in half after a bit of aging. Always wondered about these, we may have solved a minor mystery here ...

Also I notice that on maritima palms the inflorescence is rather erect while both causiarum and domingensis will arch and become pendulous. On these ligules their inherint purpose seems to be a protective one, so thinking along these lines perhaps large ligules are present on full sun palms, less so on shaded specimens???

Matt, as far as I know the only Sabal that hold fruit w/in the fronds are pumos and bermudana; will admit I know next to nothing about the former. The latter species is probably the slowest growing Sabal in existence, with uresana a very close runner-up. Check the leaflets, bermudana are rigid, joined together for half their length, pumos much less so.

Someone Tom I think mentioned hybrid, as a general rule Sabal do not cross even when grown sympatrically for many yrs. There are hybrids and/or genetic freaks in existence but the chances of any Sabal hybridizing are very rare. I need to go by Hersh Womble's place in Groveland, he has a Sabal that I am sure is a cross, never seen anything like it. Has humongous almost circular leaves on a short tightly packed stem. I am thinking minor X palmetto (or v/v) on it.

Edited by Tala

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sonoranfans
Catherine I vote for causiarum as well.

Ed, I burst out of that closet many yrs ago. I contend that most splitters downplay environmental factors, these can change a single palm's complexion in many ways, foliar, thickness of stem, size of crown, etc. I've no doubt that these Caribbean Sabal are all one & the same - mebbe they weren't in the big inning (go Rays) but they are now.

I actually put on some shoes to climb up my dom. palm stem (no bare wood yet) but 20 ft of growth in just over a decade from seed, there are ligules present but they are noticeably smaller in size than the ones on my caus. which are lengthy, long enough to fold down in half after a bit of aging. Always wondered about these, we may have solved a minor mystery here ...

Also I notice that on maritima palms the inflorescence is rather erect while both causiarum and domingensis will arch and become pendulous. On these ligules their inherint purpose seems to be a protective one, so thinking along these lines perhaps large ligules are present on full sun palms, less so on shaded specimens???

Matt, as far as I know the only Sabal that hold fruit w/in the fronds are pumos and bermudana; will admit I know next to nothing about the former. The latter species is probably the slowest growing Sabal in existence, with uresana a very close runner-up. Check the leaflets, bermudana are rigid, joined together for half their length, pumos much less so.

Someone Tom I think mentioned hybrid, as a general rule Sabal do not cross even when grown sympatrically for many yrs. There are hybrids and/or genetic freaks in existence but the chances of any Sabal hybridizing are very rare. I need to go by Hersh Womble's place in Groveland, he has a Sabal that I am sure is a cross, never seen anything like it. Has humongous almost circular leaves on a short tightly packed stem. I am thinking minor X palmetto (or v/v) on it.

Great thread and pics guys, seems like environmental factors are quite important in the development of these palms. So much variation, its hard to believe to may be one species of carribean monster sabal.

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iamjv

Some 50 year old sabal mexicanas in downtown San Antonio... these have survived a number of hard freezes to include the 6F and 9F in 1983/1989. Jv

post-362-1223693800_thumb.jpg

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gcyao

During the 2006 Biennial in the Dominican Republic, we were in Sabal causiarum country, and here are a few pictures I took. Like most of you, I was not knowledgeable enough to try taking picures of the papery ligules.

post-805-1223722273_thumb.jpg

This was on top of a cliff overlooking the Caribbean, on the way to see Pseudophoenix ekmanii, one of my favorite palms, in habitat.

post-805-1223722370_thumb.jpg

This was in the area where we saw Copernicia berteroana in habitat. The two were practically growing side-by-side.

post-805-1223722306_thumb.jpg post-805-1223722330_thumb.jpg

These were at the hotel in Barahona where we stayed and used as base for the forays away from Sto. Domingo.

BTW, we were told that the habitat of S. domingensis was in the northern part of the country.

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edbrown_III

Howdy George,

The S. domingensis I posted was collected on the North Coast of DR---- east of Puerto Plata , We stayed in Barahona but didnt know enough where to look (it was 1988)

I collected these seeds pre Zona publication tho.--- I recalled size of seeds ---- very large.

Zona publication on Sabal, shows map of S causerium on the south Coast, the only S. causerium seeds I collected were in Puerto Rico and USVI, these are around the yard./

I hope to visit you in May next year---

Howdy Dave,

These S. causerium were grown understory so ligules arent as long. S. domingensis out in sun ------ very high water table very reach peaty loamy soil with some clay so much more nutrition for the plants --- just drainage is bad and more cold weather and deeper freezes than Orlando. This may create some of the differences that we are seeing in cultivation.

Best wishes,

Ed

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FRITO

bumping this one back up. Best Sabal thread and commentary!

:drool:

Heres a photo of Sabal causiarum (labeled as such) in Ft. Myers.

it had large a trunk and the papery ligules were present. compare it to the large bismarkia for scale.

Ligules and petioles:

post-741-1234734564_thumb.jpg

Edited by FRITO

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FRITO

trunk.

Bismarkia (left) and Sabal causiarum (right)

post-741-1234734645_thumb.jpg

post-741-1234734716_thumb.jpg

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