Dr. John Dransfield visits the Big Island

[LJG]

Yes Bill, Dypsis prestoniana.

[bgl]

Wow, I just planted one of those today. And another one is planned for tomorrow! Have to take some photos. But there's a bit more to be done before that!

[BS Man about Palms]

Bo- I believe Len is kidding. Either that or he's just plain crazy.

[bgl]

Makes absolutely no difference. I'm still going to plant my Dypsis prestonianas! Even if they're not! But they do have a definite resemblance to the one in the photo. Here's a photo I took earlier this year.

[tim_brissy_13]

Bo, I agree with you about the variation within the species of Dypsis. D. decipiens is a good example, as a small palm it can have delicate leaves and a few stems or thick leaves and one stem. I'd think it is possible that the group of 'prestoniana', 'big curly', 'OCWS', 'canaliculata' etc. may be only a couple of variable species. However I have no knowledge of the flowering patterns of these palms, so my opinion is only based on growth habit and appearance, which doesn't seems to be all that important in palm taxonomy.

Slightly off topic, is Dypsis ifanadianae in cultivation at all? From the photos I've seen it seems like an attractive palm, and has the added bonus of a lack of mystery surrounding it (although I know everyone likes the unknown ones).

[LJG]

My comment was a little tongue in cheek. Like Tim said, I have my doubts as to whether these are separate species or variations of Dypsis prestoniana. I saw Mardy's smaller "Big Curly's" and OCWS. I have some Prestoniana's from Peter Balasky that are dead ringers. Even Tri (for those that know him, knows he has the eye) agreed when he saw both. Who knows what is what, but what I saw and have are the same thing - whatever they be called. But I am only palm yellow belt in dojo of Ninjas so I bow my head.

[Walter John]

Original message edited out.

While I'm here, hello everyone, is everything clear here now ? Who's not certain and about which palm are you not certain ?

[Urban Rainforest]

Tim, You basically took the words right out of my mouth as I was thinking of posting something similar about these species. I believe at the very least they share the same complex. Take Dypsis Madagascariensis for example. While Madagascariensis, Lucabensis, Diego, Mahajanga are in the same complex there are distinct differances between them yet I believe most botanist lump them into Dypsis Madagascariensis. If this is true the most glaring differance I see in the Prestoniana complex is the price . Anyhows we have a bit of time until they flower to sort all this out. Here is a pic of my Dypsis Prestoniana I bought from Bo taken in March. It has been in the ground now for almost a year and is one of my favorite palms I have planted there.

Steve

[Jeff Searle]

I saw the embers cooling on this thread so I thought I should fan them!

Here is what was sold to me as "Big Curly" but this one is the most recurved, squat one I have seen, scratch that, Jeff Brusseau has one close I think. Anyway, It was pretty big in a 15 gal pot when I got it, fairly shaded under a tree. I didn't think the leaves could get any shorter..., BUT very stout! Been in full coastal sun for a couple years here, now in a box.

Any ideas?

Bill,

So now that Len has spoken, your Dypsis prestoniana should be planted out and rightfully named accordingly. I guess you over-paid alot of money for this (now) common palm.

You should of come to me or Wal first, and asked for our opinion. We could of saved you alot of money.

Jeff

[BS Man about Palms]

I suspect its all true.

[Gtlevine]

Who knows what is really true until these things get big. I saw Dypsis Prestoniana in Madagascar and it did not look like Big Curly. The fact that the seedlings look similar does not mean the adults are the same palm as we have seen with lots of Dypsis. As a matter of fact, I saw a more likely prospect of Big Curly just north of Fort Dauphin which Aussies called Dypsis Robusta. The only problem, Jeff Marcus Dypsis Robusta looks totally different than the ones in Australia and the ones I saw in South Madagascar. There were seedlings of the ones I saw and they were dead ringers for Big Curly. My opinion is the palms I saw were Big Curly and therefore Big Curly does not equal Dypsis Prestoniana. Attached is a photo of the palms I saw in South Madagascar I called Big Curly when I was there and who's seedlings were identical to our So Cal Big Curlys we got from Doc Darian.

[Gtlevine]

Here is the picture of the trunk.

[Gtlevine]

Another of the leaves, does this not look like Big Curly?

[Gtlevine]

Here is my Big Curly for comparison.

Gary

[Gtlevine]

Here is my smaller Big Curly. These photos make me believe Big Curly is in the Dypsis Robusta complex.

[Gtlevine]

Now here is what we are all getting as Dypsis Prestoniana. If this is not Prestoniana, then it is something else but not Big Curly as Len suggests.

[Tyrone]

Gary, I have to agree with you. Those pics look identical to what is growing over here, initially known as "stumpy" then known as Dypsis robusta in Mt Cootha in Brisbane. There are a few growing private collections too in QLD. So Big Curly is Dypsis robusta. Dypsis robusta has never been found in the wild, but I think you've found it now. Awesome palm. The Mt Cootha ones don't have as much trunk as the wild ones yet.

I've got some seedlings of D robusta and they are unstoppable. They get all the winter rain that leaks into my tunnel and they love it. I think they will do well in cultivation over here.

I don't know what the one caleed "prestoniana" is. I have lots of bifid seedling "prestoniana" that I sourced from RPS and it would be interesting to see if they come out looking all curly like your last pic.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Here are the Mt Cootha ones.

[Tyrone]

and more

[Tyrone]

and more

[Gtlevine]

Thanks for the post, I think definately Big Curly is Robusta as your palm indicates. The problem I am having is the palm in Jeff Marcus garden he calls Robusta, it looks like a totally different palm. John Dransfield says he thought Big Curly in Jeff Marcus yard was Prestoniana and his Robusta was labeled correctly. That means Big Curly and the palm you guys are growing are a different species or a major variation of Robusta. But these are definitely not Prestoniana based on location. As far as the real Prestoniana, I don't know if what we are all growing in So Cal, like mine, and what Bo has in Hawaii, is indeed Prestoniana.

Gary

[bgl]

The palms in Tyrone's photos (Mt. Cootha) do not appear to be Dypsis robusta. And Gary, let's keep in mind that the Dypsis robusta at Floribunda is the type specimen. The species was described from that very palm. See article on page 128 in Palms Vol. 49(3) Sept. 2005. This means that any Dypsis that is different from the Floribunda individual cannot, by definition, be a Dypsis robusta. And I don't believe that Big curly is robusta. I just tried to call Jeff, but he probably left for the day. I'm fairly certain he also has the palm that's referred to as Big curly, and if that happened to be the same as his D. robusta, Jeff would certainly know!!

[Gtlevine]

Thanks Bo, you verified what I was thinking. Jeff Marcus has Big Curly, he got that palm from Mardy Darian. Therefore, Dypsis Robusta is the type specimen as you described, and what we call Big Curly from Doc Darian is probably the same palm as I photographed in Madagascar pictured above and what the Aussies are calling Dypsis Robusta. So the Aussies are wrong and Big Curly is an undescribed species. That leaves Prestoniana, will the palm we have in So Cal and what you have turn into the real Prestoniana? or are we again dealing with something different? I guess we have this all cleared up, right?

Gary

[BS Man about Palms]

When you guys sort all this out let me know, I'll be out weeding.

[Walter John]

Thanks Bo, you verified what I was thinking. Jeff Marcus has Big Curly, he got that palm from Mardy Darian. Therefore, Dypsis Robusta is the type specimen as you described, and what we call Big Curly from Doc Darian is probably the same palm as I photographed in Madagascar pictured above and what the Aussies are calling Dypsis Robusta. So the Aussies are wrong and Big Curly is an undescribed species. That leaves Prestoniana, will the palm we have in So Cal and what you have turn into the real Prestoniana? or are we again dealing with something different? I guess we have this all cleared up, right?

Gary

You guys, you do have a sense of humour after all, don't you.

[bgl]

OK, now that we got all that straightened out here's a couple of photos of a different one. One of my Dypsis sp. bejofa (bijouf?) lost TWO old fronds at the same time today. VERY unusual. Here I am, holding them, with our two little Maltese, Wilbur and Orville, for additional scale!

[bgl]

And the colorful trunk. I have to confess, though, that I had to do a bit of "palm detailing" to expose more of the color. The color is only partly visible right after an old frond falls off.

[Walter John]

Once again after a good chat with Clayton, here's a response we'd like to submit initially addressed to Garry.

Hi Garry

Great photos in post 171and 172 ( It's holding more colour than I expected to the crown shaft ) As we have seen with all of these larger Dypsis many different factors can change the look of a single species even the photo itself.

With Jeff's Dypsis robusta his plants came from Australia from the same place that all the ones you have seen in the photos of mine and the ones at Mt Cootha in Brisbane and the few of the other lucky people that got there plants from the one person who received the one and only lot of seed from Madagascar which was Maria Boggs, you can check with Jeff if you like, so they are the same but they just look a little different due to growing conditions this species does change in that it lose's most of that maroon tomentum on the crownshaft once it forms a trunk.

I also believe that Dypsis robusta is in the same complex with Dypsis Prestoniana, and that Dypsis Prestoniana "might" have more than one form from one location to another. And some of the possibilities of these have been raised in this topic.

It's not the first Dypsis with more than one form, one only has to look at Dypsis Madagascariensis, or "some" of these other species that have more than one locality.

Your on the right track Garry, give Jeff a ring.

PS: What you're calling "Big Curly" is not Dypsis robusta, it is very similar though.

Note from Wal:

Dypsis robusta was once nick named "Maria's Stumpy" and/or "Stumpy 1", Dypsis carlsmithii was once nick named "Stump 11", I was once nick named "Splinter", but that's another story all together.

[Urban Rainforest]

And the colorful trunk. I have to confess, though, that I had to do a bit of "palm detailing" to expose more of the color. The color is only partly visible right after an old frond falls off.

Bo, Palm detailing at it's very best! In fact that will give your Orange "pilulifera" Crush a run for it's money.

Steve

[bgl]

Wal and Clayton,

Thanks a lot for the additional information! And I obviously should have paid more attention to my own post #159, in which I made reference to the variability within a species, based on various growing conditions, before making my comment that the Mt. Cootha palms did not appear to be Dypsis robusta. I'm retracting my hastily made observation...!

Bo-Göran

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi Guys

Here's a picture of Dypsis sahanofensis from Flecker Botanic Gardens

here in Cairns just so you can see what it really looks like not the best

but this will give you an idea.

Regards Mikey..

[Central Floridave]

I don't have much to add, but I want to get my alias name on here so I can easily search for the thread when it drops to page 10!

Great photos and commentary. I just got clued into this thread and it will take a week and a half to read through it. But, that is a good thing!

I have these seedling currently growing and this thread is of interest to me. So thanks!

East Central Florida

D.Robusta

D.Carlsmithii

D.Albofarinosa

D.Tokoravina

Along with others, but these don't have too much information out there in internet land...other than this thread! Rock On!

[LJG]

Thanks for posting the pic of the Dypsis sahanofensis Mikey. I actually just bought one and all his were suckering. There was debate as to whether this was a profuse suckering plant at such an early age as some seen in wild are single. So maybe what I just bought will be the real Dypsis sahanofensis.

[Gtlevine]

One more photo close up of my Big Curly, it shows the same rust scaling as the wild specimens. I am almost sure Big Curly is the same as these from South Madagascar.

Gary

[rafiki]

Hi Guys

Here's a picture of Dypsis sahanofensis from Flecker Botanic Gardens

here in Cairns just so you can see what it really looks like not the best

but this will give you an idea.

Regards Mikey..

Sorry Mike! Hope I am not consigned by others to the gates of hell for disagreeing with you on the identification illustrated by a pic from Flecker Botanic Gardens.!!!! Whatever it is it ain't Dyspsis sahanofensis!

The palm shown has reg pinnate leaflets. The real D. sahanofensis has leaflets 'grouped to irregular and slightly fanned within the groups'.

Along with a few others I have made 4 trips to Mt. Vatovavy to look at this palm. We have seen the real species which appears to be down to few individuals and even the specific plant that Dransfield and Beentje rediscovered in '94 and as illustrated in POM. We travel with Guy...a Malagasy botanist...who is also shown in the POM pic! Have attached a photo taken (in habitat) in April this year of the leaf and leaflet arrangement in this species. The few surviving palms are growing in a particularly dark section of the rainforest and may not like growing outside in the full sun. Only once have we found immature seeds on the palms and it could be a seed shy species.

All very interesting nevertheless!

Cheers! Bill.

[rafiki]

perhaps a better pic of the leaflet arrangement in D. sahanofensis.

Bill.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi Guys,

No worries Bill

I thought that you where the one that may have supplied this

to the Gardens, I'll have to have a look at the accession book to see who it was.

Cheers Mikey

[rafiki]

Hi Guys,

No worries Bill

I thought that you where the one that may have supplied this

to the Gardens, I'll have to have a look at the accession book to see who it was.

Cheers Mikey

Thanks Mike! I did germinate a few seed of the true species but that was two years ago and I don't remember if Dave Warmington got a couple from me...old age perhaps! Certainly not 10? years ago by the age of the palm in the Gardens.

Good luck on Monday!

Cheers! Bill.

[Jeff Searle]

Hi Guys

Here's a picture of Dypsis sahanofensis from Flecker Botanic Gardens

here in Cairns just so you can see what it really looks like not the best

but this will give you an idea.

Regards Mikey..

Sorry Mike! Hope I am not consigned by others to the gates of hell for disagreeing with you on the identification illustrated by a pic from Flecker Botanic Gardens.!!!! Whatever it is it ain't Dyspsis sahanofensis!

The palm shown has reg pinnate leaflets. The real D. sahanofensis has leaflets 'grouped to irregular and slightly fanned within the groups'.

Along with a few others I have made 4 trips to Mt. Vatovavy to look at this palm. We have seen the real species which appears to be down to few individuals and even the specific plant that Dransfield and Beentje rediscovered in '94 and as illustrated in POM. We travel with Guy...a Malagasy botanist...who is also shown in the POM pic! Have attached a photo taken (in habitat) in April this year of the leaf and leaflet arrangement in this species. The few surviving palms are growing in a particularly dark section of the rainforest and may not like growing outside in the full sun. Only once have we found immature seeds on the palms and it could be a seed shy species.

All very interesting nevertheless!

Cheers! Bill.

Good day Bill,

I'm glad you posted a couple of your pictures from Mt. Vatovavy. I thought the same thing when I saw the picture from Flecker's. Your absolutely right that this is one palm specie low in numbers. The few plants high up on the mountains are fairly safe, but I hope this is not the only population !

If correct, I think out of the 6-7 seeds I brought back from our "06" trip up there,(yes, I did find just a few!) I have one or two small seedlings that sprouted. First thing monday morning I'll be headed for the seed house to have a look! If so, I will definitely post a picture. Thanks for the clarification!

BTW......we are way off course on the original thread, my appologies.

Jeff

[Matt in SD]

Bill,

Did you send seed to Jeff Marcus? If you google "Dypsis sahanofensis" you'll find an entry in Dave's Garden Plantfiles that has a photo of a mature speciment from Jeff's garden, and it looks to me like it's the true species. What I'm dying to know is if the seedlings Jeff is currently selling as Dypsis sahanofensis are from his tree. I've been growing plants from him for a couple years now and they are good growers and are so far consistent with the true species. If Jeff's plant is the true species, AND the seedlings he's selling are from his tree, then this palm is going up in numbers really fast because he clearly has a lot of them and a lot have made their way to SoCal.

Matt