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Dr. John Dransfield visits the Big Island

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MattyB

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Is this a real Dypsis nauseosa? This is from Dean's garden, maybe he can comment on the background.

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bgl

I'm sure Dean will comment. As soon as he wakes up! :lol: That definitely looks like the one I mentioned above: initially introduced as D. ceracea, then referred to as D. nauseosa, and JD is now fairly certain it is indeed the true D. tsaravoasira. I'll see if I can get a photo of one of mine of similar size. I have a bunch of them in the ground.

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MattyB

:blink:

But yours have leaflets that are held in a "V" and the leaf is recurved. That dosen't seem to be the case in the palm pictured at Dean's that Paul is holding. Obviously you've seen that palm at different stages than me. Does it develop the recurved and V leaf form later?

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Jeff Searle
Thanks Matt! Saved me a lot of hassle tomorrow! Yes...these are true D. nauseosa!

Thanks Mike....good to read your views! Dypsis bejofo (giant white palm and #1 Dypsis in POM) is ok in habitat so far...I saw them in '93 and Jeff Searle and Peter Balasky in 2006. Jeff Searle ...can you confirm this? On a ridge enroute to the Lemurophoenix and Marojejya darianii locality. Was talking to Mark Daish the other day and he lost his D. bejofo...a maginificent specimen...in the cyclone. Perhaps Arden Dearden has a few.

Mike...Jan Smith has a superb example of D. tokoravina that came in as D. sp. Jurassic Park.

Cheers! Bill.

Bill,

You have the memory of an elephant! :) Well sort of.

Remember, Pete and I took the late afternoon walk with Julian and another guide to go see the couple of lemur's in cultivation on somebody's property. It turned out to be a disaster of a hike. No water, half way up, Pete got sick and weak and had to stop and wait for us to return. A 'one hour hike" turned into something like 3-4 hours. Wow, what memories I have as I type.

So, that day we never went up all the way to see the Lemurs. and Marojejya darianii and D. bejofa (or what ever variety it is). And because my feet were in such bad shape, I was not able to go the following morning. Pete didn't want any part of it either! So we sent Julian,guides and hoped for some seed. Which we did get some of. A great couple of days camping at the old malagasy's house. That's a whole nother(is this a word,nother?) story in it's self!! I hope this helps.

PS....I will be having dinner with Pete tonight. I can maybe shake his memory from a previous hike he made there and report back. I am really enjoying all the info. and Bo's pictures. I often ask myself if the day will come when we all will understand this great group of palms. I sure hope so.

Jeff

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Dypsisdean
Is this a real Dypsis nauseosa? This is from Dean's garden, maybe he can comment on the background.

Matty,

That's the same palm that everyone referred to as 'ceracea,' and then D. nauseosa. It was from Jungle Music, and did come up out of the ground developing "crownshaft" much sooner than others.

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bgl

Here are a few photos of Dypsis tsaravoasira of different sizes. (I.e. the palm initially known as D. ceracea and then as D. nauseosa).

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BS Man about Palms

OK- just when we were making headway, I'm gonna throw something in here...... I have seen, and I believe Matt in SD has also, some palms sold as Dypsis tsaravoasira locally several years back that many recently thought was the "Orange Crush" -at first- (give us the the "for sure" name Bo and I may use it). :D But as more of the "Orange Crush" have become available, it has become clear they are not the same palm. The "Orange crush" is a rocket compared to this.

The Dypsis tsaravoasira I bought several years back as a medium sized 15 gal I have finally named the incredible shrinking palm....It went next into a 10 gal when it seemed to struggle and the mix was heavy. It didn't like our last 2 winters and is now pushing a new spear but I put it in a 7 gal about 9 months ago.... All the ones locally I have seen with that name (albeit, very few), seem to grow similarly- dirt slow.

On the other hand I have the both the local D. Cerecea and D. Nauseosa and both will run circles around the first. I wish I had a worthy picture to post. It kinda looks like Nauseosa, Orange crush and sp. White all rolled into one (not as bright of a white, mind you.) or at least in its glory days it did look that way.

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bgl

Bill,

Without a photo, tough to say. But keep in mind that Orange crush was sold under the D. tsaravoasira name for a number of years, probably from about 1999-2000 or so until very recently. If you look at the photo in post #26 with me and JD: all the way to the left is a relatively small Orange crush/pilulifera, and then immediately to its right is a good sized D. tsaravoasira, and then all the trunking palms behind me and JD are Orange crush/pilulifera. There's a certain resemblance between the two, but tsaravoasira is a bit more robust (thicker trunk). Growth rate here in Hawaii: these two are both relatively fast and I would have a hard time deciding which of the two might be faster. OC/pilulifera seems to a bit slower as a small plant, and I'm fairly certain it's also much more temperamental with its soil requirements (must be light and very well draining). The tsaravoasira is a stronger grower even as a seedling and seems to be less picky with its soil requirements.

Bo-Göran

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Gtlevine

Bo, I see you have already jumped 100% into the Nauseosa to Tsaravoasira switch. I no longer have my POM book, gave it to Bruno and have not replaced it as of yet, but if I remember, didn't the Tsarovoasira pictured in POM have recurved leaves? I briefly remember the pic of the palm in the distance and it had recurved leaves different from your palm. Maybe you can open your book and take a look. I'm glad we cleared up the false ID of all our Nauseosa, it bothered me ever since I got back from Madagascar. Once some of your palms flower you can send them to JD at Kew to put a final ID on that palm whether Tsarovoasira or not.

Gary

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Urban Rainforest

Bo, What an awesome thread!!! Just what palmtalk needed as it was getting a little slow around here at least for us Dypsis freaks :lol: . I keep pretty detailed records of everything I plant so just to make sure I'm with you on the new name changes.

Dypsis Nauseosa= Dypsis Tsaravoasira

Dypsis Orange crush = Dypsis Pilulifera

The one I'm a little confused on is if Dypsis Robusta MAY be Dypsis Prestoniana then what did John say what we have been growing as Dypsis Prestoniana is :hmm: . BTW, I loved all the pics and Jeff's Lemur is freaking unreal! I may have to plant some more of those :) .

Steve

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bgl

Gary,

I am very familiar with the photo of the tsaravoasira on p.154 in POM, because I have looked at that photo more times than can remember! :) But take a close look at the photos in posts #13 and 14 and you'll see that the fronds are definitely recurved. The one on p.154 may have slightly more recurved fronds, but then there are also probably differences between individuals, AND they MAY also get more recurved with age and size. I'd say there's a striking resemblance between the ones in #13/14 (especially the one on the left in #13) and p.154 in POM. And, BTW, if you want another POM, you should probably act very quickly. I believe the IPS bookstore may still have a few. If I recall correctly, JD said that Kew has sold all of theirs.

And Steve,

YES on the first two statements, but a big NO on the robusta/prestoniana. Dypsis robusta is Dypsis robusta and the type specimen is the one that Jeff and John are looking at in post #9. Dypsis sp. big curly is a big question mark, but as I said in an earlier post, JD felt that it MIGHT be D. prestoniana. I should add that this comment was just in casual conversation when Jeff, John and I looked at the palm at Floribunda. I did not "clear" this comment with JD, which is why I'm stressing the that there's a good amount of uncertainty. And as far as I know, we don't have any confirmed large D. prestoniana here in Hawaii, and presumably not in SoCal either. As you know, I have a bunch of them in 7G and 15G pots (and I just planted one today!) but if these are true prestonianas and IF they are the same as the big curly - well, who knows!!

Bo-Göran

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Hi Bill,

Like others I'm trying to find out more info about this 'sp' and others talked about in this thread, Since last night new information has come to light.( At no time have I said that this 'sp' had either name connected upon entering Aussie)

This species only entered Aussie as a Dypsis 'sp' and not under any of the names mentioned, The person who first sourced the seed was Mark Overend everyone's plants came from Mark via his seed, As did Maria's which she only sold as a Dypsis 'sp' same for the plants Curt Butterfield sold, I got mine from there well over 14 years ago from Vince when he lived in this Area. So Bill the bigger one's around here are all the same age, About 3 years ago while Michael Ferrero and Clayton where in Cairns they both saw Jan's plant they both agreed that it was in fact D tokoravina that's when Jan tagged her plant Which I'm sure Jan can confirm for us.

Bill what I'm keen to find out is more about this second 'sp' you mentioned, Clayton has about 20 plants in the ground and they’re all the same what does make them look different is if there planted in the shade, but we already know that happens with many Dypsis. Mark Daish has a different form, well It’s the same plant we know it’s just that his is variegated, Did you see that beauty when you where at his place. The information I've given here is correct and not just Wild guesses because that in turn adds to the confusion that's why I'm keen to see what John Dransfield has to say with regard to this 'sp' one other I'm keen to also hear more about is D. nauseosa plus many others as I mentioned at the start of this post.

Regards, Mikey :)

Edited by calyptrocalyx&licuala freck
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Urban Rainforest

Bo, Thanks for clearing that up and this is all very interesting to me! I was wondering if John had a chance to comment on Dypsis Caniliculata. I have a nice one here that I just potted up into a citrus tall that is similar to Dypsis Prestoniana but clearly differant. Was wondering if they are the real deal?

Steve

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bgl

Steve,

About the canaliculata - yes, the name came up and it seems to be definite maybe! :) If you check POM (p.148), it hadn't been seen since 1951 when POM went to press in 1995. JD seemed to have doubts about the validity of the name, but we didn't discuss it in detail, so I'm not going to speculate any further. The important question: any confirmed canaliculata sightings in Madagascar since 1995? If not, then that would really put a big question mark on the ones we have in cultivation under the canaliculata name.

Bo-Göran

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Hi Guys

Here's one that is growing at Claytons and was talked about earlier, this

was brought in under the name D.hillerbrandtii, but now it's

great to put a name to it D. bossrei. these plants picture are up to 3mtrs tall

(the mature canes).

Regards Mikey.

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Edited by calyptrocalyx&licuala freck
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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Here's the photo of the plant I was talking about in an earlier post

this pic is from a few years back of D tokoravina, a varigated one that.

Regards Mikey

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JD in the OC

M.H. Edwards,

I like it.. I like it A LOT B)

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck
M.H. Edwards,

I like it.. I like it A LOT B)

Hi JD,

She's a beauty eh, here's another picture to view

check out the petiole in this shot, These pic's

where taken a few years ago I'll try and get

some up to date photo's for all to see.

Cheers Mikey :)

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Logolight

With great admiration, you guys amaze the hell out of me in how well you can look at one of thousands of different palms and identify it. Truly humbling... I hope some day I can identify palms as well as I can identify aircraft.

Dave

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rafiki

Great photos everyone!

Mike...spot on mate!...Mark Overend collected for Curt Butterfield but would never tell anyone where he got his seed! He did get bulk lots from Alfred Razafindratsira but the rest?

Have got the camera going and am appending :

First lot is of D. tsaravoasira aka 'ceracea'. Larger one has 6m of trunk and drooping leaflets. Must admit, like Gary, am not sold on the new name yet but that is by the way.

Second lot on new page is of another palm that came in under the 'ceracea' banner.

Bill

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rafiki

Apologies for darkness of prev pics but it is dark in my little forest.

Ok this palm also came in as 'ceracea' but is quite different in bearing spirally arranged leaves. Now maybe this could yet be D. tsaravoasira?! Anyone else got something similar.

Bill.

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rafiki

These are of the large Dypsis sp. 'Jurassic Park' growing here and representing the majority of the two sp. that came in under that name. Everyone seems to have one of these. This has yet to form a trunk but does not have the grossly swollen leaf sheaths of D. tokoravina. Am hoping to visit Jan Smith next week who has the other form which is definitely (as Mike says) D. tokoravina! Am surprised that John would suggest that Jeff Marcus's palms which are just like the one attached...is 'probably' D. tokoravina. But...time will tell. The larger Dypsis have metamorphosis as second nature! Am aware that this does not help in clearing up the mystery but that's life. Anyone got one of these that is trunking? By the way the little palm to the left of the pic is Dypsis forficifolia (entire-leafed form).

Bill.

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Gtlevine

I agree with you on Jurrassic Park, must be two different forms. The palm shown in POM is so unique, the crownshafts look like they are about to fall off the palm. Jeff Marcus plant just does not look the same to me. Please take good pictures of the real Tokoravina when you visit your friend next week, I need to see the real thing.

Gary

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bgl

Bill,

Thanks for the photos. Have difficulties making out details in your tsaravoasira/ceracea photos, but the Jurassic Park seems to be identical to the (more common) one here. I have a number of them that are just beginning to form trunk. Some are more colorful than others. Here are two:

Bo-Göran

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Hi Guys,

here's a couple of photo's of Dypsis tokoravina the first is from Claytons,( something to remember with these two

picture's that they both palms are growing in very poor soil) and growing conditions.

The second picture is from Jan's (talked about in an earlier post with Bill) this picture is from three years ago

when Clayton, and Michael Ferrero where up here again this plant is in VERY poor soil and growing conditions.

Hey Bill looking forward to seeing updated photo's.

Regards Mikey

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

now here's Jan's.

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

now here's a pic of one of mine......

Cheers Mikey

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

one more pic. :)

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Gtlevine

Thanks Mike, that looks much more like Tokoravina than Jurrasic Park. I hope Bill gets the updated photos for us to see. Can you remember if the crownshaft is completely open? If you look at Bo's picture, the crownshaft is 80% open, I think Tokoravina has a crownshaft that is virtually 100% open and in the photos you posted you cannot see the crownshaft where it attaches to the trunk like in Bo's photo. Your Tokoravina definately has the defined break at the top of the crownshaft and petiole and the leaves are wider. I think Bill is correct on this one and Jurrasic Park is different than Tokoravina.

Gary

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Hi Gary, With looking at Bo’s plants they look to be getting a lot more shade than the one’s from Claytons and Jans, (Jans is in full sun) (Hey Bo what is the lighting factor for your ones) my one is in filtered light, I have 2 out the back in a lot more light. I will get pictures to show how much light and soil can change these babies esp at such a young age, We have never had any seed labelled as D. ‘Jurrasic park’ ,or D. tokoravina enter in to Aussie, well not when these guys came in years ago.

All these plants I’ve shown here are all the same age and from the same seed batch and Only entered Aussie as a Dypsis ’sp’, Jurrasic Park was a name placed to these only a short time ago (within 10 years) D. tokoravina a lot more recently,(both the same palm) what a great debate this thread is turning out to be and I'm still stuck on this 'sp' let alone others talked about in this great thread, look forward to hearing more and really look forward to seeing picture's how much Jans plant has changed .

Cheers Mikey :)

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bgl

The two photos in post #104: the more colorful is in a LOT of shade, while the other one is relatively exposed even though there's a big Metrosideros tree nearby that's giving it some shade. I gave one of these to a friend and Palm Society member long time ago (right around the corner from me), and his is larger than any of mine. It is also planted in a much more exposed location. Will ask him if I can take a photo and post it here, but not today (we're expecting friends over here about 15 minutes ago... :) )

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

Hi Bo, Thanks for the fast reply regarding the lighting, look forward to seeing yours friend's

specimen when you get time, since it is also in planted in a bright light condition.

Regards Mikey...

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Walter John

Bledisloe

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calyptrocalyx&licuala freck
Bledisloe

Hi Wal, Watch what ya say Dude :floor::P

Oh, Here's another pic of one of Claytons.

Cheers Mikey

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John Dransfield

It has taken a couple of days to get over the long haul fronm Hawaii, attend to urgent things etc, and now I have the luxury of reading all about my visit to the Big Island and my identifications! It has been quite amusing.

A few general comments

Of course, I am not infallible, and I may also be inconsistent, but Bo will bear me out, I am sure, that we went over and over the mystery Dypsis before reaching conclusions. Some of these conclusions may prove to be false, but I believe they are best bets at the present.

It seems that Dypsis tokoravina is causing the most excitement. I wonder if there is anyone posting on this thread who has actually seen true D. tokoravina, apart from myself. I know it in only a few localities, all remote, and it is a stupendous palm with its unusual open leaf sheaths, well illustrated in POM. It was the tendency of some individuals of Jurassic palm towards open sheaths coupled with the abundant brown indumentum that lead me to suggest that we were dealing with juvenile D. tokoravina (note that BO said possibly). Of course, we can only be certain when the cultivated palms come into flower and fruit. I also felt that there was probably more than one palm being referred to as Jurassic Palm. Incidentally, these monikers are really useful, but we really must be careful as even these names may be applied inconsistently/

Bo mentioned that I had said that D. canaliculata may not be valid. That is not so. D. canaliculata is a perfectly validly published species - it just hasn't be seen properly for 50 odd years and the type specimen on which the name is based gives very little idea of what the palm is actually like. So, until it is re collected we shall have to regard this as a complete mystery.

In one message, mention was made about the potential of DNA studies. We have been trying for the past ten years to start a project to look at the molecular phylogeny of Dypsis, but either lose the appropriate manpower or fail to get the required funding. Nevertheless, the project will be done, sooner or later. We have a vast amount of material collected already for analysis (including material of orange crush, robusta, albofarinosa, etc etc, culled from, Jeff's and Bo's garden)

And yet another comment - Dypsis onilahensis is a mess - I am sure there are several entities that currently are included under this name, but they will need a lot of sorting out. I am hopeful that Mijoro Rakotoarinivo, about to defend his PhD thesis in Madagascar, will continue his palm studies into the future, collecting more and more amazing material from previously unvisited areas.

I am sure I have not answered all the points raised in this thread - the thread is already too long for easy navigation - but I hope I have added a little clarity.

We had a really great time in Hawaii and were amazed at the growth of palms, the astonishing diversity in collections and the warm hospitality of everyone - and, off topic, the lava flow enetering the sea was astonishing.

John

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Tyrone

It's great to hear your comments John. I'm actually quite confused by this thread, but it's Dypsis, so confusion is to be expected, or it could just be me. :) I've enjoyed the pictures and discussion. Thankyou for your efforts over the years with the Madagascan palms, and making it easier for us to understand them.

Best regards

Tyrone

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BS Man about Palms

Thanks for checking back John. Keep up the good work!

Bill

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bgl

John,

Thanks a lot for adding your comments. I know it's appreciated by everyone! :) And my apologies if I misinterpreted your comments about D. canaliculata. I know we didn't discuss that one when we went over what I could post, and how to phrase the various comments, so I should have been more careful! But if I understand it correctly, the bottom line is that what we have in cultivation as D. canaliculata is unlikely to be that?

(And off topic, Karolyn and I were up in Hawaii Volcanoes National Park Saturday morning and I ran a 5 mile race there. And there's a steam cloud coming out of the main caldera that's almost as impressive as the one we saw at the ocean entry!!).

Bo-Göran

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John Dransfield

Bo

Yes, it would seem very unlikely that Dypsis canaliculata is in cultivation. It's only known with certainty from one specimen from Manongarivo with a second possible collection from near Brickaville. Of course, it is not impossible that collectors will have found seed of the real thing, but I rather doubt it.

John

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Gtlevine

John, do you have a plan to write a new addition of P.O.M.? I think we are all ready for a new addition.

Gary

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