Mites, Scale, and Aphids

[osideterry]

I just won the war of scale on an Alexander King, just to find a new invasion on a Chamadorea caratactum. Huge scale insects. In the past I've slugged it out slowly with Neem and other horticultural oils. Now I'm trying this Bayer 3-in-1 stuff.

Is the Bayer any good? I like that it's readily available, instead of a home concoction or expensive mail order only product.

What are you all using?

[MattyB]

Good topic Terry. I remember you mentioning your battles. I use Ortho systemic mite and insect control for the greenhouse plants. I've yet to spray outside at the new place. I just hate doing that. But the ants are very industrious and farm scale like mad. Ohhhh, idea for a new thread.

[LJG]

Terry, I use Bayer's Tree and Shrub product. It is a systemic and works like a charm. I would find a trail of Argentine Ants running up trees and I knew what they were doing. Once this is given, a week later, no ants. The stuff killed the pest feeding them and weakening my trees. Not sure about the stuff you got. Have not used it.

[paulgila]

where can i git me sum?

[gsn]

Home DesPot, Lowes at least here in Florida

[paulgila]

hmmm,thats kind of a long drive for me...

[newtothis]

coincidentally I just used this on my red tips. Worked great and is supposed to last 30 days. Have not tried on palms yet.

By the way get the bottle that hooks up to your hose for easy spraying.

Edited July 11, 2008 by newtothis

[paulgila]

thanks everyone for the tips! my garden is becoming "ant farm west!"

[gsn]

hmmm,thats kind of a long drive for me...

Paul,

One would assume you would check the HOME DESPOTS and Lowes, in Cali ,before you drove to Florida!

[deezpalms]

I use the Ortho systemic stuff as well and it works great! Safe to use on all of my palms and kills bugs DEAD! Just mix with water n' spray!!

[Matt in SD]

I've used the bayer stuff and for palms in a greenhouse, don't really like it much for that. It's too expensive to use preventatively, and since it takes too long to work to really be useful for smaller palms, particularly if they have mites (which kill FAST). I also found that it worked well the first couple times I used it and then all hell broke loose in my greenhouse and I had to use other methods.

But outdoors, on larger plants where it's hard to get full coverage of the affected area, it probably is a good call, although I hate to use persistent chemicals outside.

Lately I've been using a product called Ortho Max in my greenhouse and I've only had to use it two times in the last 15 months...so far it works that good. One spray, all mites and everthing else is toast and doesn't come back for a long time.

I recently got a spray with pyrethrin's (Doktor Doom Spider Mite Knockout) which works so well it's sort of scary. I sprayed a bromeliad inflorescence that had aphids in all the nooks and crannies and an agave with scales and meally bugs (and ants), one spray and all sign of the bugs was gone within a day or two. The nice thing with the pyrethrins is that although they are fairly toxic (more toxic to humans than the synthetic knockoffs like permethrin) they don't hang around long at all outside, and don't contaminate groundwater. You can spray fruit today and safely eat it tomorrow. If you can reach the entire affected area of the palm you're dealing with I would give this spray a try.

Matt

[paulgila]

matt i dont like to use chemicals like that out-doors either since i have a koi pond so i mostly just spray ant-infested

palm leaves with water but as the weather heats up the ants are getting the edge.i wonder if its worth the risk to the fish to use some products like these in the garden.

[MattyB]

Paul, I think small amounts of insecticide is actually good for your Koi. It helps them build strong immunities in case there's a fluxuation in water pH. Just start by adding 2 tablespoons to the pond water. Then up the dose. Disclaimer: This only works on Paul's pond, don't try this at home.

[LJG]

Classic. That was too funny. Poor Paul. He gets no love. But serious Paul. Try it. It worked for me.

[MattyB]

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Paul,

That Bayers product is taken up through the roots only, not the leaves. You pour it into the soil and no overspray polluting the little fishies. This active ingredient is imidacloprid, and is the new fave in systemics. One new thing to consider is coffee grounds. Using grounds is supposed to have some sort of systemic that imparts into cycads and keeps them clean of scale. Worth a try on palms.

Jerry

[MattyB]

What does systemic insecticide to to the worms? This is the reason I don't like to spray around my palms. The worms are the best thing I've ever done to my soil.

[Matt in SD]

Oh yeah,

I forgot about coffee grounds. I think they work. I've used them on my bamboo which is a scale nightmare and it at least seems to keep them off the new shoots. You could blast the scale off the palms and put coffee grounds around. Maybe they won't come back.

Matt, I read that imidacloprid does kill worms. But this was from some pretty anti-synthetic people and I'm not sure how validated this is.

Matt

[osideterry]

newtothis - I am using the the bottle that connects to the hose, and it is easier than using a deck sprayer for sure.

I asked this in the Sabal mauritiiformis thread but no answer: Will this stuff work on Leaf Skeletor? I just noticed the the damage, and am hoping this bayer stuff works on it. Is the culprit a caterpillar?

[DoomsDave]

Usually, I don't do anything.

Ladybugs, etc. eventually get the scale. Scale on a king? Puh-leeze! It won't hurt the king. I had one turn black from mold in the honeydew, and it grew fine. For a while, the ants ran off the ladybugs.

But, one day, the ants disappeared, and the ladybugs arrived in force and it was shoah time for the aphids and scale.

[freakypalmguy]

OK, I'm feeling dumb here. Do all systemics work through the roots? Cuz I be sprayin it on the bugs. Stupid is as stupid duz.

[DoomsDave]

OK, I'm feeling dumb here. Do all systemics work through the roots? Cuz I be sprayin it on the bugs. Stupid is as stupid duz.

Some systemics work through the roots, others through the foliage. Check out the label directions . . .

Acephate ("orthene") works through the leaves.

[Matt in SD]

While imidacloprid (the Bayer active agent) is marketed, and used effectively as a systemic insecticide. It will kill insects on contact, very effectively. The advantage of the root drench is that it will get taken up by the plant and can provide protection for a LONG time, and also there's less chance that good insects will get harmed, since they are just walking around on the plants and not eating them.

But don't forget that there are good insects (very good insects like bees) that feed on the nectar and pollen when the trees flower. There are also lots of larvae underground that will definitely get killed and at least some sources say worms will die. There are studies out there that show that imidacloprid will kill nectar feeding bugs very effectively on treated plants. I'd imagine the ladybugs that eat the aphids feeding on imidicloprid treated plants will also die.

Honestly, I don't really think this stuff should be use outside unless you have a really horrendous infestation on a valuable plant that is so big you can't actually spray the whole thing with a rapidly degraded contact insecticide. And even then, if it's just aphids, there is no reason to use anything other than ladybugs.

Imidacloprid is also the active ingredient in Advantage which is a very effective flea killer/preventative in dogs and cats. There was a competitor to imidacloprid, that I think is still out there but may not be marketed for agriculture. I forgot it's name, but it was so potent that the flies would swarm to treated dogs crap and drop dead on the spot. Sort of funny at first but then you just imagine the spread of this stuff and the loss of insects in general.

Matt

[paulgila]

Paul,

That Bayers product is taken up through the roots only, not the leaves. You pour it into the soil and no overspray polluting the little fishies. This active ingredient is imidacloprid, and is the new fave in systemics. One new thing to consider is coffee grounds. Using grounds is supposed to have some sort of systemic that imparts into cycads and keeps them clean of scale. Worth a try on palms.

Jerry

thanks jerry!

[freakypalmguy]

OK, I'm feeling dumb here. Do all systemics work through the roots? Cuz I be sprayin it on the bugs. Stupid is as stupid duz.

Some systemics work through the roots, others through the foliage. Check out the label directions . . .

Acephate ("orthene") works through the leaves.

Ahhh, yes Obiwan, I have orthene. The destructions say, "cover entire plant surfaces, spray both the upper and lower surfaces of the leafs". Thank you. Now I don't feel as dumb as usual

[LJG]

Hmmm. Are you sure it is passed through the nectar of a flower? I hope not. I like bees. They are my friends.

But don't forget that there are good insects (very good insects like bees) that feed on the nectar and pollen when the trees flower.

Matt

[DoomsDave]

OK, I'm feeling dumb here. Do all systemics work through the roots? Cuz I be sprayin it on the bugs. Stupid is as stupid duz.

Some systemics work through the roots, others through the foliage. Check out the label directions . . .

Acephate ("orthene") works through the leaves.

Ahhh, yes Obiwan, I have orthene. The destructions say, "cover entire plant surfaces, spray both the upper and lower surfaces of the leafs". Thank you. Now I don't feel as dumb as usual

You did NOT ask a dumb question.

This stuff gets tricky sometimes.

Just call me "O" . . . .

[osideterry]

Palm Leaf Skeletonizer? From Betrock's website: "No one control has been reported to be supremely effective. Sevin, Lindane and the biopesticide Dipel 2X have all had some success."

I've seen Sevin at Lowes. Unless someone throws me a better option, that's what I'm doing.

Where are the Lady Bugs to be found?

[tropicalb]

Terry...

If you feel you MUST use a pesticide, Malathion is also not a bad option. Less "nasty" than Orthene, and supposedly, degradation of Malathion occurs rapidly in the environment.

ALWAYS READ THE LABEL (and i mean READ IT!...the WHOLE THING!) and follow all warnings and directions before you use a pesticide!

Systemics like Orthene are some pretty nasty stuff (especially the blue powder form concentrate), but works extremely well. Unfortunately, it also kills any good bug that eats the plant. .

As crazy as it sounds to some, if i ever have to spray pesticides anywhere, I ALWAYS wear GLOVES, full length pants, tall rubber boots, long sleeve shirt and a respirator, then IMMEDIATELY take a shower when I'm done and wash all clothing worn when spraying seperately from other laundry. Using pesticides is no joke, and should be done properly in order not to hurt yourself or any other living thing (other than the nasty bugs you're trying to kill of course).

THE COFFEE METHOD:

The coffee method (believe it or not) is VERY successful on cycad scale and mealybug. Get yourself a 2 gallon sprayer, and when you make your coffee in the morning, when the coffee is gone, make another pot using the same grounds. Let it cool off, then throw it in the sprayer, and repeat for a week or so till you have about a gallon and a half of the "second brew" cofffee.

The COOLEST thing about using the coffee method is I don't have to wear protection when i spray it, not to mention that it's environmentally friendly!

DISCLAIMER: if you want to try the coffee method: TEST IT OUT on a few test plants before you spray it on everything. I'm not responsible if you use this method and end up killing your most expensive plant!

I personally have used it for scale and mealybug on cycads (kills them immediately and you can actually brush the scale off the plant three days later....falls off like it's never been attached at all) including all encephalartos, macrozamias and zamias.

I have sprayed it heavily on 15 gal butias with no problem (killed all mealybug and scale), and have used it inside my greenhouse using a lighter than usual application as a test on all my palms and have had decent results.

Another method to make the spray is to go down to Starbucks and grab yourself some free used coffee grinds (they come in a silver packet; if you don't see them, ask the manager for some...they are happy to give it away). Make your concoction by letting a pound of the grinds "stew" for a week inside a 32 gallon trash can full of water (remember, you don't want the coffee at full strength, or you are in for some trouble).

Oh, and you can occasionally find Lady bugs at home depot, or go HERE. The beneficial bug thing is more of an inside the greenhouse application to me though....in order for it to work outside, you'd have to release a LOT of bugs, and PRAY they stick around for a while (not extremely likely IMHO).

Edited July 12, 2008 by tropicalb

[osideterry]

Burt - When I asked Bamboo Bob about aphids on bamboo, he recommended Malathion. I used it last year on the bamboo and my wife's roses. It seems so all-purpose, I wasn't sure it would work with scale. Last weekend I was trimming the oldhamii and alphonse karr and discovered the ants were back.

I've been dumping my used coffee grounds under the A. alexandra just to help fend off another scale infection. Hoping it works as a systemic. 2 months and no new scale.

[tropicalb]

Yeah Terry....as you can tell i am a firm believer in the coffee spray. It works for me, and it's FREE!

Also, the real deal is to control the ants. Less ants = WAY less bugs.

Edited July 12, 2008 by tropicalb

[tropicalb]

ALSO:

I forgot to give credit where credit is due:

MANY THANKS to Tom Broome (cycadjungle) for letting me (and everyone else) know about using the coffee method for pest control. I believe he is the one that came up with the idea of using it as a spray.

[palmislandRandy]

I've used the Bayer on my jumbo Royal. Wiped out the Royal Palm Bugs I had in a few fronds. I mixed almost a whole bottle with 5 gals of H2O, dumped around the dripline and bugs gone!

[Tala]

someone was asking about skeletonizers - by the time you see the damage they are long gone. The frass is from the caterpillars living just beneath the "epidermal" layer of the leaf. So any topical treatment is worthless.

What you need to do is research the gestation times of whatever local sp. you have. here it is around 3 months. So say you see damage in July. This means you have to apply the insecticide in April. I had good luck using Merit G, a granular form of imidacloprid. Unlike the liquid the palms (in this case some Wash. robustas) absorbed the product thru the roots, sent it out into the newer fronds, bud, and no more skeletonizers. Mind if you want to stay free & clear of them the treatment will be an annual requirement.

[DoomsDave]

Palm Leaf Skeletonizer? From Betrock's website: "No one control has been reported to be supremely effective. Sevin, Lindane and the biopesticide Dipel 2X have all had some success."

I've seen Sevin at Lowes. Unless someone throws me a better option, that's what I'm doing.

Where are the Lady Bugs to be found?

Dang, haven't seen PLS . . . .

Sevin's all over the place. It won't hurt people or "higher animals" -- I used it as flea powder on my late kitty cat.

DON'T BUY LADY BUGS! Sorry, hate to shout, but they just go where the food is. If you have no aphids, etc they fly somewhere else. But, if you have aphids, just wait. Where there are aphids, they'll come, oh yeah. Trust me. Shoah time! Mua ha ha ha!

I don't use any bug killers EXCEPT when I treat a potted palm for ants or scale to give to someone fussy. My garden is full of bugs, birds, bees, lizards, snails and other things, and nothing's been destroyed by any pests, though sometimes the snails come close, especially to baby Chamadorea plumosa and various amaryllids. The biggest destroyer is ME. Sigh.

[osideterry]

Dave, I've had a fairly hands-off approach for the past 4 years. Spider Mites chewed a C. tepijilote up real bad, and I started using Neem Oil for mites and scale. Then I discovered the Alex was covered with scale. My goal is not to bomb everything as a preventative, but to treat infestations as they appear. I guess midsummer is a good time to be a bug here.

I'm ruthless with snails though, laying down bait constantly.

[The Germinator]

How about hydro therepy. I bought one of those bug blaster nozzles that's supposed to blast all the bugs off the plant. They recomend multiple applications before they are all gone. Has anyone tried one. I picked it up at the Fullerton Plant show this year.

[cycadjungle]

I thought I would slide in under the radar to talk about this subject after hearing what you all have written. Imidicloprid is a good product and seems to be somewhat safe to larger animals. It is used on cats and dogs, and I would bet, it wouldn't be real toxic on larger koi, but I've never seen anyone talk about that though. If you use a product with Imidicloprid in it, if you spray the leaves of a plant, the product lasts about 3 weeks. If you use it as a drench, then it lasts between 4 and 5 months, depeneding on the soil. For cycads, it takes about 3 week to translocate through the plant and only concentrates in the new foliage, so if you treat a cycad and it is flushing, there won't be a lot of material in those leaves. Palms, with a continuous growth pattern will move the material better than it does in cycads.

A few have already mention the coffee, and thanks, Burt, for the props on this. I am glad it is working for everyone and that is the reason I made my talk on the subject when I was in California last June. That trip came with a great expense though because now, someone attending made sure that any of you who were getting my fertilizer won't be able to get it again. I see a few have mentioned other plant groups. It has been 2 1/2 years since I started experimenting with the coffee grounds and I have not used an insecticide for general use in my whole nursery since then. I have had to use a couple of chemcials when I sent something to another state, when it is required, but that is it. I have tried it on many types of plants, and no plants showed any problems, whether I sprayed it or used it as a mulch. To date, I have used it on cycads, palms, bamboo, clivias, bromeliads, gingers, various succulents and various aroids without any damage. Coffee grounds have been used for a long time in compost bins and in gardens, mainly to help the soil, so if it were bad on plants, people wouldn't be using the stuff on all the plants they intend to eat.

[Neofolis]

I used a Thiacloprid based spray for scale earlier this year, which proved to be effective. For mites I use predatory mites, which have worked very effectively, but I have not established a population balance between the spider mites and the predatory mites, so I have to add new predatory mites annually.

[JimStPete]

Usually, I don't do anything.

Ladybugs, etc. eventually get the scale. Scale on a king? Puh-leeze! It won't hurt the king. I had one turn black from mold in the honeydew, and it grew fine. For a while, the ants ran off the ladybugs.

But, one day, the ants disappeared, and the ladybugs arrived in force and it was shoah time for the aphids and scale.

Dave, I couldn't agree more with the comment on King Palms. Most of mine are covered with scale (and their ant buddies) with black soot covering the crownshafts. All this 'muchin' just doesn't seem to bother the kings at all. I usually remove any plants that can not survive without spraying poison on them. Hibiscus and Angel's Trumpet are beautiful plants, but like Oleander, they are nothing but bug magnets here in St Pete so out they go! I kept watching the Kings and they just keep growing and pumping out more leaves. The same with the Solitare palms.