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MattyB

Sabal yapa vs. Sabal mauritiaformis

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MattyB

RLR says that S. mauritiaformis has a blue underside to the leaf and S. yapa dosen't.

Dave's garden says the opposite, S. yapa having the blue cast under the leaves.

Some say S. yapa is larger and some say S. mauritiaformis is larger.

So in your experience, how do you tell the difference between the two?

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BS Man about Palms
RLR says that S. mauritiaformis has a blue underside to the leaf and S. yapa dosen't.

Dave's garden says the opposite, S. yapa having the blue cast under the leaves.

Some say S. yapa is larger and some say S. mauritiaformis is larger.

So in your experience, how do you tell the difference between the two?

I've noted in the past the Yapa tends to have a bluer tinge to it, the mauritiaformis a greenish tint.

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paulgila

they are spelled differently.

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tropicalb

the snark strikes yet again.!

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Roaringwater

I thought that Sabal mauritiiformis had more rounded leaves, with silvery scales on the underside. Here are a couple of pics I took of an unlabeled palm in the Valencia Botanic Garden (Spain), which I took to be Sabal mauritiiformis. I would be interested to know what others think.

98874192.jpg

98874194.jpg

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Eric in Orlando

Both are very similar but S. mauritiiformis is silvery on the undersides while S. yapa is green. There seems to be 2 forms of S. yapa, a smaller slender form and a bigger sized one.

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Ken Johnson

Matty didn't you pay attention to my lesson when I was out there? Oh thats right you were busy tending to some kind of picture thing? You know I put a lot of time and money to come out there and teach y'all about Saballs.

So here we go again. Some things about Yapa first.

1.This palm, when seen in gardens around here, has two forms. Big and small. I have no clue why but one looks like a dwarf of the other. So.. size does not help split the two.

2. Yapa has a leaf like maurit but the two are way different upon close insection. If you can see both together it will be obvious. I like to tell people that Yapa has UNevenly split and unevenly dooping leaflets. It also has the same color on top of the leaf as below. No matter what shade you call it. This is a dead give away!

3. Yapa has a very rough trunk and does not hold old leaf bases with age. Note:The leaf basses that are held turn brown in less than a year. The trunk can have a "steped" appearence from the old leaf scars. (watch out 'cause Maurit has this too but is smoother between leaf scars.)

Mautitaformis:

1. This palm can be huge if in a shady area. It also looks fantastic in the shade as this also means less wind to tear the leaves! In the full sun it will be much smaller but stillv can grow tall.

2. The leaf is Bicolor. The top is a different color than the bottom. Forget about the samANTics of what shade of blues (hey thats rock and roll) it is is flat out bicolor! Also the leaflets are split fairly eavenly and they droop in a more constant lenght from the hastula. A much cleaner and architecturally pleasing look. Yapa look ratty in compairison.

3. Maurit likes to hold its leaf bases. If not cut off they will break off a foot or so from the trunk (self cleaning if you will) and the leaf base will stay on AND remain green for years. Only Sabal I know that looks like this.

Well there ya go. Any questions?

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MattyB

Ken you are crazy! And very helpful! Thank you so much.

So Bill, sounds like what we both have labled as S. yapa are actually S. mauritiaformis, according to the descriptions of RLR, Eric, and Ken.

Bill had given me a Sabal yapa or mauritiaformis in a liner last year and it was completely rooted out in a 5 gallon when I planted it out this week. What a grower!

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Ken Johnson

You'r the man Matty. Got a pic for us?

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Tala

eh, first off the name is mauritiiformis. My anally retentive nitpicking aside, to add Ken's comments take a good look at your pics - maurit fronds are always flat, even the segments are, at least when new. Other common Sabal sps the fronds bend along the costa, sorta V-shaped, this an aerodynamic function methinks. Sabal palms could be the most wind / cane proof palms in the kingdom with 1 exception - mauritiiformis. Theorize these are canopy emergent palms in most areas, although they can dominate "pasturized" areas (often former forests). Also the maurit's segments are deeply split, often completely to the costa. Sorta pinwheel shaped, very much like some Licuala. The yapa palms are split but not nearly that much. Lastly yapa is much more tolerant of cold than maurit, tho' both do surprisingly well considering their origins. The foliage on maurit's will burn in slightest frost or freeze but they are bud & trunk hardy, even when young small palms.

Veering off a bit this for anyone, the two versions of yapa are not well defined, at least in print. I'm wondering if they mingle in habitat or is it something similar to Butia capitata (two distinct areas). Can the small version which is closer in appearance to the "palmetto type" Sabal in many ways, can it be pinned down to Cuba or interior Yucatan and nowhere else? The small version (nice groupings of these are found in the FTG lowlands) is a tough palm, takes cold to mid 20's before damage occurs.

The large leaf version has fronds just as big if not bigger than any other Sabal, also holds a more distinct silver color underneath. It is much more similar to maurit than the small leaf version. Also yapa tips tend to have a pronounced droop to them (think mature Livistona for an easy reference pt).

Here in cen. Fl. it takes about 10 yrs from seed for them to form some trunk, often very slow process. After this initial below ground formation takes place they grow much faster. Often many palms slow down once they mature, these do the opposite!

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ariscott

I have S. yapa seedlings and the leaves have silver underside and they look different to my S. mauritiiformis.....??? Any seedling photos?? I might be able to dig around the shadehouse to take photos of mine, if you post yours...

Regards, Ari :)

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Eric in Orlando

Here are young specimens of the 2 Sabal yapa forms.

smaller form

img_1288.jpg

larger form

d1e4.jpg

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Eric in Orlando

and Sabal mauritiiformis for comparision;

542c.jpg

d35b.jpg

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PalmGuyWC

It's just my personal preference, but Sabal mauritiaformis is the most beautiful and exotic of the Sabals, and it has a very different apperance from the others. It looks very tropical, and is also the most cold sensitive of the Sabals. As Ken mentions, the old leaf bases remain green for a long time and I know of no other Sabal that does this. Unfortunately it gets to cold where I live, so I can't grow S. mauritiaformis. As for S. yapa, it has an exotic name, but I've never thought it was very attractive.

Dick

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Kim

I recently saw what was said to be S. mauritiiformis with 30 ft. of clean green trunk. Only a couple of feet of leaf bases were held at the top. Have you experts ever seen one like that?

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Eric in Orlando

Are there any Sabal mauritiiformis or S. yapa still at the Dent Smith's in Daytona Beach? I have a copy of Smith's article in "Principes" from 1958 or '59 detailing the damage and recovery of his palms following the winer of 1957-58. He had 11 nights of below 32F and 63 hours of freezing temperatures starting on Dec. 2, 1957. The coldest was on 12/12 and 12/13/57 when it was 25F and 27F and then in Feb. 1958 four nights in a row of 29,26,26, and 29. Here is what he observed about these 2 Sabals;

S. mauritiiformis- ugly but inconsequential to foliage

S. nematoclada (now S. mauritiiformis)- foliage mostly burned, otherwise uninjured

S. glaucescens (S. mauritiiformis)- unsightly damage to foliage, no deep injury

S. yapa- unaffected

S. mayarum (now S. yapa)- unneffected

There is a S. mauritiiformis that survived the low 20sF in the 80's freezes at the FIT campus in Melbourne,FL, don't know about S. yapa. Are there any of either species at Dr. Young's in Tampa that survived the '80s freezes? None were planted out at Leu then.

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PalmGuyWC

Eric,

Paul Drummond had a nice S. mauritiaformis growing in South Miami that had retained a green trunk and the palm was somewhat shade grown. Now that Paul is gone, I don't know if the palm is still there, but it was a beauty. We tried growing it in N. Calif. and even though it may take brief cold temps., it is to tropical to grow in our climate. I don't know of any large ones growing in N. Calif.

Dick

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merrill

Believe it or not, there was a Sabal mauritiaformis on the Univ of Fla [Gainesville, No. Fla] campus for quite few years. It was surrounded by partly open masonry on three sides open to the south. It reached about 12 feet tall before being lost in a freeze.

merrill

Edited by merrill

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Eric in Orlando
Believe it or not, there was a Sabal mauritiaformis on the Univ of Fla [Gainesville, No. Fla] campus for quite few years. It was surrounded by partly open masonry on three sides open to the south. It reached about 12 feet tall before being lost in a freeze.

merrill

When and at what temperature was it killed ?

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Ken Johnson

Any one have an opinion on the drought tollerance of mauritiiaformis?

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Eric in Orlando

They seem to have some drought tolerance but get really ratty looking if it is prolonged. In the shade they handle drought fine.

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Tala

yep what Eric said re: drought.

Those pics are great at showing the diff. between the 3 palms, you can see how the maurit's leaflets are grouped together forming wider segments, also observe the deep splitting. And you can see how large the "large leaf" yapa is, as well as it's color. Not as pronounced as maurit but a definite difference.

Dr. Young has maurit at his place, one very tall specimen I remember is towards the back corner, easily 30 ft maybe 40 ft tall. It was surely present in '89, I have his notes re: that event somewhere ...To my eyes they look better as juvenile palms, ratty is a good description for them out in the open. The leaves are like paper, they don't take to wind at all. They are a stunning exotic when planted in groups. Would love to see a habitat photo of this.

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Eric in Orlando

The leaf skeletonizers really love this Sabal too.

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Mike Evans

Ken is right, the S. Mauritiaformis look great in a shady area. Here is a pic of one I have in a shady area of the garden. I had a numbrr of Yapas in the garden, but dug them up & they all died.

DSC01553.jpg

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SubTropicRay

S. mauritiiformis grows faster. There is also a noticeable differnece in the hastula but that would be impossible to describe here.

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spockvr6
I had a numbrr of Yapas in the garden, but dug them up & they all died.

But, a half dozen of the ones you had in pots live on at my house :mrlooney:

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spockvr6
Ken is right, the S. Mauritiaformis look great in a shady area. Here is a pic of one I have in a shady area of the garden. DSC01553.jpg

That palm is waaaay bigger in person than it appears in that pic.

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spockvr6
S. mauritiiformis grows faster. There is also a noticeable differnece in the hastula but that would be impossible to describe here.

Hey Ray---

Arent there a grouping of S. mauritiiformis at the USF Botanical Gardens? My memory could be off, but I think I recall seeing a group of some really large ones there?

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Rusty on Pine Is.
Ken you are crazy! And very helpful! Thank you so much.

Matt, I could have said everything that Ken did...but only because he was here at Jackass Flatts a few weeks ago and explained all the finer points of the ID...i should have taken notes, Ken sure knows his stuff!

Thanks Ken.

Rusty

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MattyB

Ok, here's the plant that sparked my interest. I just put it in the ground this weekend. Bill and I both have plants from this same batch labed as Sabal yapa.

post-126-1215704861_thumb.jpg

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MattyB

The undersides are noticeably icy blue. So what do you guys think? Yapa? Mauritiiformis? Too early to tell? You make the call.....

post-126-1215704939_thumb.jpg

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Ken Johnson

There is no doubt in my mind that that (hey the same word twice) is a mauritiiformis.

Icy blue? Is it coctail hour?

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MattyB

Ken I love you. Yes, I'm drunk.

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nomolos

Here's a pic of a Sabal Mauritiiformis from Mt Cootha botanical gardens. I had never seen one in person, I didn't think much of them from previous photos I had seen.

Well seeing them in real life changed that. A magnificent palm with very long petioles and a tropical appearance. Highly Recomended

Picture7252.jpg

Edited by nomolos

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osideterry

I just noticed skeletization spots on my "mauri". :angry:

I hit it with Bayers Mite spray that is supposed to cover scale and aphid. What else should I throw at it?

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SubTropicRay

Yes Larry, those are S. mauritiiformis at USF.

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The Steve

Hey Matt, 

Could we see how your S. yapa has grown up?

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