Definition of "gallon" sizes

[Logolight]

In my endeavours to increas my green thumb knowledge, what is the definition of a gallon size of trees/palms and how do you measure them?  Thanks.

Dave

[deezpalms]

It really depends where you get your plants from. I've gotten huge 1g's and small 1g's that should really be a 4" size. It also depends on the growth of the species. Certain species get big quicker then others.

[Matt in SD]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but the answer can be very simple or kind of messy depending...

The simplest answer is that a size in "gallons" or "4 pot" etc... is just referring to the size pot the plant is growing in.  (if this is totally obvious and not what you are asking, sorry.  Just want to cover all bases)

As Dave mentioned, the size of a palm in a given size pot can vary quite a bit.  I've found that in places with optimal growth like Hawaii or South Florida, the palms are much bigger in a given sized pot than they are from a CA nursery.  But as you spend more time (and money) buying palms you will develop an expectation of what size palm should be in a certain size pot and that expectation may vary depending on the grower.  For example when I buy a "1 gallon" palm from Floribunda in Hawaii, I usually expect something that is ready to be potted directly into a 5g pot.  When I buy a 1g palm in CA I feel pretty lucky if it's more than a small seedling.

There is additional confusion in what the actual size of the pots are.  A standard "1 gallon" pot has a volume that is significantly less than one gallon.  Same with all the other "gallon" sized containers.  There was a thread about this on the old board in which someone I think gave the history of the naming system, but I don't remember the details.  But you can go to your local Home Depot or other plant store and look at the pots and get used to the actual sizes.

Matt

[Logolight]

Thanks.  I can see now why my question seemed so vague.  If I'm understanding right, it's more the size of the pot than the size of the plant growing in it.

[bgl]

Dave,

When we refer to a particular palm as having been planted as a 1G size, or 5G size, that's just general info that can be useful when we judge the growth rate of that palm. Just a general guideline. Since very few of us actually measure the palm when we buy it, or plant it, this is a close as it gets when it comes to keeping track of how fast (or slow!) a palm is. As Matt points out, there can be major differences, though. For instance, I germinated a bunch of Clinostigma samoense seeds, put them in 1G pots, and then left them just a little bit too long. I've potted them up in 5G pots now, but these palms were all about 6 ft tall. In 1G pots! Generally speaking, though, a typical 1G palm is probably about 8-15 inches tall, depending on species.

Bo-Göran

[Zac in NC]

Yeah I have a double Trithrinax campestris thats in a 1 gallon and its barely 4 inches tall, if even that big. They are just so damned slow. Its more of a pot size, and I think a 1 gallon pot actually holds about 3 quarts of soil.

Zac

[DoomsDave]

This is a more interesting question than you even know, for it gets to the heart of what size is and why it might or might not matter.

In general, I've found that gallon size plants are those that fit well into a gallon pot, and aren't rootbound.  Though this can vary by species, it makes at least intuitive sense when you look at happy gallons viz overgrown ones.  I'll take some pix to illustrate when I get back to my Death Camp Shallow Grave this evening . . . .

dave

[Walter John]

I love this one, especially when we use metric diameter measurement of inside the rim of the pot here in Australia.

Following gallon pot descriptions is tricky to say the least for us.

When comparing rootball sizes there are a few extra considerations (such as capacity to plant height/spread) to take into account when considering palms in pots.

At most nurseries they containerise plants in both pots and bags, the sizes of which are expressed as either a diameter (pots) or volume (bags).

Following is a table which lists the most commonly used pot and bag sizes. As indicated, a plant that might be specified as a 25lt bag may be grown by in a 300mm pot as an equivalent size, and a 400mm pot may be substituted with a 45lt bag.

Conversions and Equivalents

Pot Diameter

 

50mm

2 inch tube

75mm

3 inch tube

100mm

4 inch pot

125mm

5 inch pot

150mm

6 inch pot

200mm

8 inch pot (also expressed as 5ltr)

250mm

10 inch pot or 20ltr bag (250mm x 290mm)

300mm

12 inch pot or 25ltr bag (300mm x 310mm)

330mm

13 inch pot

400mm

16 inch pot or 45ltr bag (430mm x 420mm)

500mm

20 inch pot or 75ltr bag (475mm x 480mm)

100ltr bag

550mm x 550mm

150ltr bag

700mm x 600mm

200ltr bag

800mm x 600mm

400ltr bag

900mm x 700mm

Now if some smart american would like to show this table again with gallon size pots, then we'll be out of the woods on pot sizes.

Another thing of course is the nursery trade must have a pot size pricing schedule to work with.

Anyway, there 's my two cents.

[bgl]

Well, Wal, I can't claim to be a smart American, so I guess that's why I don't have all the answers... ...but here are some of them:

a 1G pot has a diameter of about 150 mm (which is what you indicate: 6 inches).

A 2G pot has a diameter of about 200 mm, which you also equate as a 5ltr. (2 U.S. gallons is actually about 7.5 ltr. A little bit off).

A 5G pot has a diameter of about 250 mm, which you equate as a 20ltr bag. (And 5 U.S. gallons=almost 19 litres. Pretty close!)

A 15G pot has a diameter of about 400 mm, which you equate as a 45ltr bag. (15 U.S. gallons=57 litres).

I should point out that the diameters are approximate. For instance, there are 5G pots that are deeper and not as wide, and 5G pots that are wider and not as deep!

I don't have any of the other sizes, so can't be of help there.

Bo-Göran

[Jeff Searle]

Dave,

   When you speak to someone(usually a nurseryman or maybe a backyard hobbist, a collector,etc.) when you ask regarding a 1gallon or maybe a 10gallon size plant, you will be refering to a pot size and not the size of the plant. For example, sir, do you have any 3gallon size Dypsis lastelliana available?  Again, this is refering to the pot size only. Usually then you would ask, whats the size or how tall are the Teddy Bear palms.

   !gallon size pots can vary in size, like others just mentioned. Typically a 1gal. is a 6 inch pot. It is measured across or the diameter. But in the trade, most nurseries use a cheater pot which holds a little less soil and cost a few pennies less.

[DoomsDave]

(Jeff Searle @ Sep. 13 2006,19:49)

QUOTE

Dave,

   When you speak to someone(usually a nurseryman or maybe a backyard hobbist, a collector,etc.) when you ask regarding a 1gallon or maybe a 10gallon size plant, you will be refering to a pot size and not the size of the plant. For example, sir, do you have any 3gallon size Dypsis lastelliana available?  Again, this is refering to the pot size only. Usually then you would ask, whats the size or how tall are the Teddy Bear palms.

   !gallon size pots can vary in size, like others just mentioned. Typically a 1gal. is a 6 inch pot. It is measured across or the diameter. But in the trade, most nurseries use a cheater pot which holds a little less soil and cost a few pennies less.

Well, yes and no.

It's true that in general terms it's a reference to the size of the pot, which concededly can vary a lot more than it should.  As a veteran of the nursery biz, I know that "gallonage" is at least somewhat a fiction of marketing.

That said, a plant that's grown way too big for a one-gallon pot is NOT a one-gallon plant, pot size notwithstanding.  It's a five-gallon plant (or a seven-, or  a fifteen-galloner) in a one-gallon pot.  

Which is why I don't say a palm was planted as a one-gallon plant, when it was in reality something much larger.  Many other people aren't that clear.

Sometimes those overgrown plants are a great bargain.  Sometimes they aren't.  

The other point I hope to make is that there are no hard and fast rules about this.  Really super slow palms may be nice one gallons at a far smaller size than faster types.

dave

[Walter John]

Thanks Bo, well done.

[Fred Zone 10A]

Dave,

"Concededly"?

[Rob Pittman]

I have one other point.  It has been touched on already.

A one gallon plant is one that is fully rooted in and not circling the bottom of the pot too much.  The test for me is if the palm can be lifted without dropping the pot.

If the pot (and probably the soil) drops off...it is not yet a full plant in that container.

Nurseries with insurance will get a percentage of claim based on the size the plant was at the time of the loss.  This really makes nurserymen mad as the work has already been done (repotting, fertilizing) to make them the full container.

Rob

[palmazon]

The oldest trick in the book is describing the container and not the plant size - which is why most old-timers will ask "What's the caliper?"

Smaller containers translate into easier (cheaper) shipping/handling, and (at the time of planting) a smaller hole to dig.

[Kamipalms]

Finally some one has made sense of the "size" madness.

Now all the Americans have to do is learn the metric system and then the rest of us can understand  what their on about... bloddy gallons, inches, and the whole ass about month/day/year dating system...

[palmazon]

(Fred Zone 10A @ Sep. 13 2006,21:14)

QUOTE

Dave,

"Concededly"?

by way of concession, admittedly, etc. - I don't know if it's valid, but you get the drift

[DoomsDave]

(Kamipalms @ Sep. 14 2006,11:05)

QUOTE

Finally some one has made sense of the "size" madness.

Now all the Americans have to do is learn the metric system and then the rest of us can understand  what their on about... bloddy gallons, inches, and the whole ass about month/day/year dating system...

Whoo-ee!

Keep that tongue away from me . . .

dave

[Zac in NC]

(Kamipalms @ Sep. 14 2006,11:05)

QUOTE

Finally some one has made sense of the "size" madness.

Now all the Americans have to do is learn the metric system and then the rest of us can understand  what their on about... bloddy gallons, inches, and the whole ass about month/day/year dating system...

But the metric system is sooo hard ( whiny American accent here) JK, I think it would be nice to be using the metric system world wide, but I don't think it would catch on here in the States( Didn't they try to implement it a while back??) They do teach it in schools here now. 30 cms per foot is one I know.

Zac

[bgl]

Actually Zac, the metric system is very easy, and on the few occasions that the topic comes up I have a way of making ANYONE acknowledge and agree that the metric system is both easier and superior.

This is how it's done: take two different monetary systems. One is metric, the other is (or was) not. First, the non metric monetary system - the OLD system in the UK:

One Pound was equivalent to 20 shillings. One shilling was equivalent to 12 pence.

And now for the metric system:

One Dollar equivalent to 100 cents.

And how many would like to go for the non-metric system???

Bo-Göran

[Zac in NC]

Bo- I know the metric system is easy. Its all in units of 10. As opposed to inches feet and yards 12 in= 1 foot, 3 feet = 1 yard. Most of the botanical literature I use for ID purposes is in metric, so I am more used to it than some.

Zac

[Neofolis]

I often wonder how you guys calculate things with imperial measurement, particlarly with mensuration.  Say for example you have an area where you have to add various distances together to find each side.  15yds 2ft 4in + 12yds 1ft 3in + 9yds 11in.  You could add each of the yards, feet and inches separately and then convert up to the next unit with a remainder or you could convert it to yards with a decimal appendage, which makes little sense using imperial measurments or you could just guess, which is the most likely option and also explains the lack of uniformity in your pot sizes.

The original kilogram weight, the one by which all others are defined is stored in a vault in France.  Until a few years ago, it used to be regularly, painstakingly cleaned by hand by the only man who was entrusted with the job.  After his death they had no idea how they were going to maintain it, because they had a lack of faith in any machine cleaning.  It was actually gaining microscopic amounts of weight due to mercury deposits coming from the breathe of people with fillings.  I get the distinct impression that some Americans may not have the same respect for certain units of measure.

[Walter John]

What about the "inch by inch" speech by Al Pacino in "Any Given Sunday".

"2.5 millimetres by 2.5 millimetres" doesn't have the same appeal.

[alex_7b]

I can tell you that T.fortunei in 7-gal today is the same size plant in a 3-gal back 10 years ago.

The gallons sizes are just a measure of how much BS the growers can fit into a black plastic pot.

[DoomsDave]

(palmazon @ Sep. 14 2006,11:44)

QUOTE

(Fred Zone 10A @ Sep. 13 2006,21:14)

QUOTE

Dave,

"Concededly"?

by way of concession, admittedly, etc. - I don't know if it's valid, but you get the drift

Huh?

Say what?

[DoomsDave]

(alex_7b @ Sep. 15 2006,11:40)

QUOTE

I can tell you that T.fortunei in 7-gal today is the same size plant in a 3-gal back 10 years ago.

The gallons sizes are just a measure of how much BS the growers can fit into a black plastic pot.

Hola, Senor!

Hmm.  You illustrate another point I've been around the block to see.

Way back in the 1980s, queen palms (Syagrus noodlesromanoffianum) were all the rage, and growers got the bright idea to sell plants in big pots.

I mean, seriously!  15-gallon pots with giant seedlings that hadn't even gone pinnate yet!  For 50 bucks!  

I'm NOT kidding.

Years later, in 1992, you were seeing over-grown 15-gallon size plants (about 3-4 feet tall, pinnate up the wazzoo, roots out the drain holes, mellow yellow color from lack of nutes')  being sold in 5-gallons, for ten bucks.

Which I bought, and planted in the ground . . . .

One's still there, in Lost Analjuice, and it's now about 35 feet tall, with about 20 feet of clear trunk.

Your tale shows that Trachies are getting popular where you are.  Interesting.

You watch, there'll soon be a revolt against the high prices.

dave

[Neofolis]

Is it safe to assume that the US has no regulatory bodies that would have an interest in pot/plant sizes.  I'm not sure if the UK does.  There are weights and measures authorities here and also a Department of Fair Trading, but I'm not sure if either of those would be interested in pot/plant sizes.  I doubt if it's really a problem for the most part, but for things like mail order/online purchases without photographs the pot sizes could be very misleading.

[DoomsDave]

(Neofolis @ Sep. 18 2006,05:40)

QUOTE

Is it safe to assume that the US has no regulatory bodies that would have an interest in pot/plant sizes.  I'm not sure if the UK does.  There are weights and measures authorities here and also a Department of Fair Trading, but I'm not sure if either of those would be interested in pot/plant sizes.  I doubt if it's really a problem for the most part, but for things like mail order/online purchases without photographs the pot sizes could be very misleading.

I doubt that idea would go over well here.  It's just too easy to compare and measure.  On the other hand, we love to label food . . . .

dave

[Neofolis]

Yeah, food labels are becoming increasingly informative here as well.  It doesn't affect what most people buy or eat, but now they know how crap their diet is.