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BobbyinNY

I HATE CANADIAN AIR MASSES!!!

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 17 2006,19:59)

QUOTE
Larry, that cold front is a bit of a lot of nothing.  

Alan-

Its nothing in the way of real cold, but it sure is a signal that summer is ending.  A map like that would not be a possibility a month ago!

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 17 2006,19:59)

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Again with the maps? Larry, geez.

As Dave from LaLaHaHaBra would say--

"Mongo like colorful maps".  

:D

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,19:58)

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Unfortunately, most of the time, the "official" temps mentioned on national tv are for "Tampa Bay."   These are taken from Tampa Int'l Airport, which is colder in winter than Albert Whitted - and colder than a lot of us in St. Pete either.

Yeah....the general trend seems to be that Tampa AP is the coldest official reading, Albert Whitted is the warmest, and the Clearwater/St. Pete AP is in the middle (but closer to Tampa AP than Albert Whitted).

On 2/14/06, most of us were lucky to have the Tampa AP reading!  I usually track pretty close to the Tampa AP low temp wise, but on 2/14/06 the Tampa AP only dropped to 37F, which was warmer that most of Pinellas (short of the beaches and other prime coastal areas).  Why this was, I am not really sure.

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bgl

Larry and Sunny,

Thanks for the excellent explanation. Gives me a good reference!

Bo-Göran

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spockvr6

(bgl @ Sep. 17 2006,21:22)

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Larry and Sunny,

Thanks for the excellent explanation. Gives me a good reference!

Bo-Göran

Bo-

The only reference you need to know is.....dont plan on bringing any of your palms here if you ever decide to move!

Even this prime area would not support many of your more tropically inclined ones.

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bgl

Thanks Larry, but, as you probably suspect, a moot point! :D I enjoyed the seven years we lived in Broward County, but I also know that I'm here to stay!

Bo-Göran

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spockvr6

(bgl @ Sep. 17 2006,21:47)

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Thanks Larry, but, as you probably suspect, a moot point! :D I enjoyed the seven years we lived in Broward County, but I also know that I'm here to stay!

Bo-Göran

Rats!

Well, if you have a change of heart, I have a prime and well planted 6000 sq ft lot for trade if you are interested!  

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

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bgl

Larry,

don't be so quick to give up! :)  Check out the other thread with photos from PSSC's meeting at Ralph Velez' place yesterday, and you can see what you can do with 6000 sq ft.!

Bo-Göran

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SunnyFl

(spockvr6 @ Sep. 17 2006,20:38)

QUOTE

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,19:58)

QUOTE
Unfortunately, most of the time, the "official" temps mentioned on national tv are for "Tampa Bay."   These are taken from Tampa Int'l Airport, which is colder in winter than Albert Whitted - and colder than a lot of us in St. Pete either.

Yeah....the general trend seems to be that Tampa AP is the coldest official reading, Albert Whitted is the warmest, and the Clearwater/St. Pete AP is in the middle (but closer to Tampa AP than Albert Whitted).

Could be.  Where I am, it's not closer to TIA.   But the TIA reading is what people outside the bay area are hearing, which is why some people in Broward & Naples roll their eyes when they hear what we're planting :D

On 2/14/06, most of us were lucky to have the Tampa AP reading!  I usually track pretty close to the Tampa AP low temp wise, but on 2/14/06 the Tampa AP only dropped to 37F, which was warmer that most of Pinellas (short of the beaches and other prime coastal areas).  Why this was, I am not really sure.
 

Hm, I dunno.  We were no worse off, maybe better, if I recall the NOAA broadcast that morning.

I do remember seeing the frost/freeze advisories that evening - Pinellas was the only county in FL that wasn't included.  Keys weren't either - but I think inland Monroe was.

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,23:09)

QUOTE
[
On 2/14/06, most of us were lucky to have the Tampa AP reading!  I usually track pretty close to the Tampa AP low temp wise, but on 2/14/06 the Tampa AP only dropped to 37F, which was warmer that most of Pinellas (short of the beaches and other prime coastal areas).  Why this was, I am not really sure.
 

Hm, I dunno.  We were no worse off, maybe better, if I recall the NOAA broadcast that morning.

I have no idea why things were they way they were on that morning, but here is the low temp data from the three major area stations.  

Albert Whitted - 46.9F

Clearwater/St. Pete Airport - 37.0F

Tampa AP - 37.9F

Thats 37.9F at the Tampa AP was warmer than 90% of the Bay area.  I just dont understand why (other than luck)!

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,23:09)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Sep. 17 2006,20:38)

QUOTE

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,19:58)

QUOTE
Unfortunately, most of the time, the "official" temps mentioned on national tv are for "Tampa Bay."   These are taken from Tampa Int'l Airport, which is colder in winter than Albert Whitted - and colder than a lot of us in St. Pete either.

Yeah....the general trend seems to be that Tampa AP is the coldest official reading, Albert Whitted is the warmest, and the Clearwater/St. Pete AP is in the middle (but closer to Tampa AP than Albert Whitted).

Could be.  Where I am, it's not closer to TIA.  

BTW - Where exactly in central Pinellas do you live?

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 17 2006,23:09)

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But the TIA reading is what people outside the bay area are hearing, which is why some people in Broward & Naples roll their eyes when they hear what we're planting :D

I guess they should!  

Ive lived in Broward as well as Dade and as much as I like it here, Pinellas aint no Broward/Dade!   There might be a few select areas in Pinellas that have night time lows close to the colder areas of Broward/Dade, but on average latitude has to count for something!  

And, we are not even speaking of daytime highs and durations below a threshold temp where those areas have far fewer heating degree days.  I can count on my hand how many times I ran the heat in my house down there, while in January, the heat runs nearly daily in my house here.

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spockvr6

And BTW, Im not bagging on Pinellas (its about the best spot to be in west central FL to be given some protection from extreme cold).  But, we are rather far north here to try and compare ourselves to similar locations much further south.

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spockvr6

(bgl @ Sep. 17 2006,21:47)

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Thanks Larry, but, as you probably suspect, a moot point! :D I enjoyed the seven years we lived in Broward County, but I also know that I'm here to stay!

Bo-Göran

Bo-

I am certain there is no place even in Broward that will stay between 57 and 85F all year every year.   That gig youve got in Leilani Estates aint bad :D

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bgl

Larry,

I wasn't into growing palms when I lived in Broward County, even though I was certainly interested in palms and did visit Fairchild a few times back then. But, I'll never forget one Christmas Day morning in the early 80s (not sure what year, 1982 would be my guess). We lived in Coral Springs and I was training for the Orange Bowl Marathon and went out for a 20 mile run with a friend. A severe cold front had arrived during the night and it was right around 32F with a VERY strong northerly wind. We dressed accordingly but we felt like we were running in Manitoba... And hardly saw any other people! As I've said before, no one ever seems to talk about wind chill in Florida, but that was brutal.

And another time was in Nov 1981. My Dad came to visit us from Sweden. His first visit to the USA. We drove up to Orlando and spent the night in a motel. A cold front arrived during the night. The next morning, we drove to Disney World and took the boat across that little lake to The Magic Kingdom. It was like we were on Hudson Bay!! My Dad, who was 77 at the time, had NEVER experienced anything like that in Sweden and he was just shocked and amazed! It did warm up to the mid 50s during the day though...

Bo-Göran

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jam99

Canadian air masses? Yeah, we get their cousins: Russian air masses :D

But not for now! This September is quite good (knock on wood) with the last 4-5 nights' temps between 15-20C (above average).

Cheers, Jan

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amazondk

Bo,

I remember those cold snaps in the early 80's.  I was working for Western Airlines at the time and had a 6 AM shift where we met the incoming flight from LAX to unload the plane.  At daybreak on the ramp at MIA it got downright cold sometimes.  I had one of those kerosene heaters at home to take the chill out of the air.

dk

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SunnyFl

(spockvr6 @ Sep. 17 2006,23:21)

QUOTE
Ive lived in Broward as well as Dade and as much as I like it here, Pinellas aint no Broward/Dade!   There might be a few select areas in Pinellas that have night time lows close to the colder areas of Broward/Dade, but on average latitude has to count for something!  

And, we are not even speaking of daytime highs and durations below a threshold temp where those areas have far fewer heating degree days.  I can count on my hand how many times I ran the heat in my house down there, while in January, the heat runs nearly daily in my house here.

Well, East Broward is warmer than here, yes - but the very western part - hmmmm, I dunno.  It used to be, before St. Pete turned into a densely-packed heat island.

Back during the advective nasty in Jan 2003, someone down there told me they bottomed out at 27F, no different than here.

As for the heating, we don't have central heat.  We just turn on our wall unit a bit then cut it off, but never leave it on overnight.  

Re: 2/14/06

Thats 37.9F at the Tampa AP was warmer than 90% of the Bay area

Interesting.  I went back to the CFPACS board to see what my exact obs were at my house that morning.  Here it is:

"So far, our low seems to be 35F but that may be on the cold side, due to where I put the thermometer.

Had I hung it at or above 4', it might have been warmer....

At 6:53, we have the coldest low for my neighborhood: 37F."

Since that was a radiational event, elevation helped, as do the number of trees around here.  If it weren't for that, we'd be colder, I'm sure.  One thing's for certain tho - our luck won't hold out forever :D

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SunnyFl

(bgl @ Sep. 18 2006,00:16)

QUOTE
I'll never forget one Christmas Day morning in the early 80s (not sure what year, 1982 would be my guess). We lived in Coral Springs and I was training for the Orange Bowl Marathon and went out for a 20 mile run with a friend. A severe cold front had arrived during the night and it was right around 32F with a VERY strong northerly wind. We dressed accordingly but we felt like we were running in Manitoba... And hardly saw any other people! As I've said before, no one ever seems to talk about wind chill in Florida, but that was brutal.

And another time was in Nov 1981. My Dad came to visit us from Sweden. His first visit to the USA. We drove up to Orlando and spent the night in a motel. A cold front arrived during the night. The next morning, we drove to Disney World and took the boat across that little lake to The Magic Kingdom. It was like we were on Hudson Bay!!

Bo, the 80's were an absolute killer.  Interesting what you said about the early 80's - that's when we moved from Broward back up to St. Pete.  I didn't know at the time that it was experiencing cold as well - I just figured it was cold in St. Pete - and was desperate to get back to Broward since "it doesn't get cold there!"

The citrus industry took a hit across Central FL.  Even now, you can still see where old groves used to be - they moved south during that frosty decade.  Now, they're being replaced by subdivisions.  Sad.

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 18 2006,07:18)

QUOTE
you can still see where old groves used to be - they moved south during that frosty decade.  Now, they're being replaced by subdivisions.  Sad.

My house sits on one!

Regardless of killing freezes, I guess when land gets to a certain value, its worth more for purposes other than agriculture.

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 18 2006,07:10)

QUOTE
 If it weren't for that, we'd be colder, I'm sure.  One thing's for certain tho - our luck won't hold out forever :D

My fingers are still crossed.  Just one more good year pleeeeeeease!

Of course, this time next year Ill be asking for the same thing.

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 18 2006,07:10)

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Well, East Broward is warmer than here, yes - but the very western part - hmmmm, I dunno.  It used to be, before St. Pete turned into a densely-packed heat island.

On this note....if you want to boggle your mind, check out the data for stations like "Royal Palm Ranger Station" at the SRCC.  

http://cirrus.dnr.state.sc.us/cgi-bin/serc...iMAIN.pl?fl7760

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spockvr6

(SunnyFl @ Sep. 18 2006,07:10)

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As for the heating, we don't have central heat.  We just turn on our wall unit a bit then cut it off, but never leave it on overnight.  

Im with you....Id just wear a few jackets around the house to save the $!

But, my wife does not like to be cold (and we also have a young daughter) so we keep the house at 72F in the winter.  Even a well insulated newer house is not really going to be able to stay at 72F in Jan/Feb without supplemental heat as the daytime highs/nightime lows are not sufficient.

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Neofolis

(spockvr6 @ Sep. 18 2006,16:03)

QUOTE
Even a well insulated newer house is not really going to be able to stay at 72F in Jan/Feb without supplemental heat as the daytime highs/nightime lows are not sufficient.

You'd be surprised, a few south facing windows are excellent heat collectors.

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spockvr6

(Neofolis @ Sep. 18 2006,13:39)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Sep. 18 2006,16:03)

QUOTE
Even a well insulated newer house is not really going to be able to stay at 72F in Jan/Feb without supplemental heat as the daytime highs/nightime lows are not sufficient.

You'd be surprised, a few south facing windows are excellent heat collectors.

The sun angle in winter is too low for that to be very effective since the houses are packed in like proverbial sardines :D

Theres about 15 ft between houses in my neighborhood.

But, there certainly are certain construction features that could be incorporated into a house up front that would help.

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BobbyinNY
Im with you....Id just wear a few jackets around the house to save the $!

But, my wife does not like to be cold (and we also have a young daughter) so we keep the house at 72F in the winter.  Even a well insulated newer house is not really going to be able to stay at 72F in Jan/Feb without supplemental heat as the daytime highs/nightime lows are not sufficient.

Oh you guys are breaking my heart...... I wish I only had to use "Supplemental" heat..... :(

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epicure3

(syersj @ Sep. 13 2006,14:40)

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(SoLando @ Sep. 12 2006,16:49)

QUOTE
Ouch. And my mornings have been too cold for me at 75ish. But it's still dark...grr. I hate being below 80. If it snows up there anytime soon, throw a snowball for me!! I haven't seen snow in over a decade!

I believe the last real snowstorm for San Antonio, other that a little sleet/light freezing precip was back in 1986 when a freak snowstorm dumped a foot (yes a foot) of snow on the area.  Wonder how the palms look under all that snow.  Interesting enough, when that freak Christmas snowstorm occured near the coast a couple years ago, we didn't get one flake.  Brownsville got an inch or 2 of snow, and it hadn't snowed there since 1895.

We got a couple of inches of snow in January, 1985. O remember the snow sticking to the ground under a washingtonia.

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 17 2006,19:59)

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Larry, that cold front is a bit of a lot of nothing.  September can bring some cool fronts, October too.  November it can happen for real but usually not. December and January are trouble, real trouble.  Feb can be a dick but usually a last gasp.  No need to bring up the Valentine's Day Ice Parade from last Feb.

That dip coming up will do more for growing than anything else.

Alan

Again with the maps? Larry, geez.

Alan-

Here I go again!

Looks like this signifies the end of summer ???

wednorth.jpg

wedne.jpg

wednight.jpg

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BobbyinNY

That's weird, Larry..... You're getting into the 50's on Thursday - we're supposed to get a low of like 51 - I'm a little nervous though because I don't have anything protected, yet -and the last front that they said would be in the 50's bottomed out in my backyard at 45f - didn't do any damage but It's a little too close for comfort.  Although I'll probably bring in all the real tropical stuff that's small like the Cocos.... It's time to start winterizing everything now.... uggghhh....

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spockvr6

(BobbyinNY @ Sep. 19 2006,09:22)

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That's weird, Larry..... You're getting into the 50's on Thursday - we're supposed to get a low of like 51 - I'm a little nervous though because I don't have anything protected, yet -and the last front that they said would be in the 50's bottomed out in my backyard at 45f - didn't do any damage but It's a little too close for comfort.  Although I'll probably bring in all the real tropical stuff that's small like the Cocos.... It's time to start winterizing everything now.... uggghhh....

Hopefully not 50's in my yard Bobby (at least not yet).  The forecast says 68F for my little plot (which is to the northwest of the Tampa AP and towards the water).  If the Tampa AP 64F forecast holds out, it will be very close to setting a record low for that date (as the record is 63F set in 1938).

But, as you found out with the 45F reading when 50's were called for, they many times get it wrong.  However, calling for 55F and getting 45F isnt as big of a deal as calling for 35F and getting 25F!

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BobbyinNY
But, as you found out with the 45F reading when 50's were called for, they many times get it wrong.  However, calling for 55F and getting 45F isnt as big of a deal as calling for 35F and getting 25F!

That sure is true, Larry.... This September seems to have alot more cold fronts coming down than last year... We didn't even get below 65f for a low until October last year - Very Strange..... I'm really getting stressed out because I can't  put anything in storage till the 1st week of October due to coordination with several of the places I store everything :(

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spockvr6

(BobbyinNY @ Sep. 19 2006,09:59)

QUOTE
We didn't even get below 65f for a low until October last year - Very Strange.....

See....you got spoiled last year and now its back to reality  :(

Happens down here as well.....a few good winters and our memories of what can happen tends to fade.....

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Alan_Tampa

We will get nights like summer all the way through Sept and most of Oct.  Indian summer or whatever.  For me Summer ends no matter the temps when the days get short enough so on work days it is dark when I leave and dark when I get home.  (5 am to 7pm usually driveway in to driveway out).  

We really only have two seasons here, Complain about the heat that is now and Complain about the heat on its way

Your tropicals will grow more now than in June and August, just watch and see.  More than one long time grower of palms and tropical fruit and flower trees has told me the same, and it has held true for me as well.  Except stuff triggered to dormancy by day-length or dryness if you stop watering or it is dryer than normal.  Larry, I doubt you will stop watering.

Alan

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Exotic Life

Hi,

Strange to see, there is everting cool off but here we go up again ... After a couple day's a cool down aroun the 20-23C/68F-73.4F we go up again.

Ex hurricane Gordon gives us tropical air to the north so from tomorrow the tempetures go back up again aroun the 25-28C/77F-82.2F and a lot of sun :)

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 19 2006,11:46)

QUOTE
Your tropicals will grow more now than in June and August, just watch and see.  More than one long time grower of palms and tropical fruit and flower trees has told me the same, and it has held true for me as well.

Ive thought of this as the "inertia effect".  Stuff keeps growing faster than one would think it would right into December even.  Then, once the plant figures things out, growth slows to a fraction of what it was before.  Ive made spear measurements on some palms and the growth rate in January is a maybe 1/10th what it is in July.

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 19 2006,11:46)

QUOTE
We will get nights like summer all the way through Sept and most of Oct.  Indian summer or whatever.  

Yeah...on average the nights are still fairly warm.

Its just that when we get little "blips" like this coming one, it becomes apparent that its not truly summer anymore.  Such a "blip" would not happen in July.

Im actually ready for winter.  Some nice cool days and nights (not cold) will be nice.

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spockvr6

(Alan_Tampa @ Sep. 19 2006,11:46)

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Except stuff triggered to dormancy by day-length

Yeah...theres no stopping the dieback of Alocasias, etc.  I have some that pretty much signal winter's onset.  As soon as the days get too short for them (regardless of temperature), they start dying back rather quickly it seems.  By late November, they are taking a dirt nap for the winter.

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BobbyinNY
Yeah...theres no stopping the dieback of Alocasias, etc.  I have some that pretty much signal winter's onset.  As soon as the days get too short for them (regardless of temperature), they start dying back rather quickly it seems.  By late November, they are taking a dirt nap for the winter

That's interesting.... I thought it was the Temperature, and not the amount of light that stopped the plant from growing as rapidly.... Last year the stuff grew pretty fast in my greenhouse during Jan/Feb, but not as fast as June-August... But then again I did keep the temps pretty warm  - not letting the nights go much below 65f

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spockvr6

(BobbyinNY @ Sep. 19 2006,14:15)

QUOTE
Yeah...theres no stopping the dieback of Alocasias, etc.  I have some that pretty much signal winter's onset.  As soon as the days get too short for them (regardless of temperature), they start dying back rather quickly it seems.  By late November, they are taking a dirt nap for the winter

That's interesting.... I thought it was the Temperature, and not the amount of light that stopped the plant from growing as rapidly.... Last year the stuff grew pretty fast in my greenhouse during Jan/Feb, but not as fast as June-August... But then again I did keep the temps pretty warm  - not letting the nights go much below 65f

I think it depends on the plant.  Palms obviously wont fold up and crumple to the ground as the days get shorter, but some other plants certainly do.

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