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Parajubaeas:Difference of performances...


Alberto

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Digging in the IPS Palm Talk Archive,i found this comments about Parajubaeas,written By Gary Levine.

My fastest and best growing is P.sunkha, second is P.torallyi var.torallyi and P.torallyi var. microcarpa third.I don´t have P.cocoides.

What is your best performing Parajubaea??

Alberto.

*** G.Levine:

I think I have come to some conclusions regarding the genus Parajubaea and their viability for growing in So Cal type climates.

Parajubaea Cocoides - I have seven of these, a couple that are eight to ten feet now. They have consistently grown in and out of a funk and have been succeptable to bugs at a young age. As they have gotten larger these problems seemed to have gone away. Several large specimens in and around Southern California have just up and died from crown rot, including the three specimens at the Huntington Botanical garden. The best ones so far are the ones planted close to the beach. I think Northern California is the perfect climate for these where a consistent cool coastal influence prevails.

Parajubaea Torallyi - I have three of these, my big one is getting quite large now, probably 15 feet tall and a steady grower. Inland or the coast they seem to do well equally. I have also seen problems with these around California, several of them just started to lean over with the roots die back on one side of the palm. Mine had this problem and I dug the whole thing up when it was a ten foot plant, I soaked the root ball in Malathion and Subdue Fungicide, straitened it out and replanted it. I thought it was a goner, but it re-rooted and is now growing strongly again and looks very healthy.

Parajubae Microcarpa - Very similar to Torallyi but finer leaf and smaller in stature. Not as fast a grower as Toralyii, but steady. I grew one from a two leaf seedling in the ground for five years and it is now about five feet tall. Might be a better choice than Toralyii but still to early to say.

Parajubaea Sunkha - I have three of them, two I grew from seedlings, and one was a five gallon or so. They are now about five to eight feet tall. I have concluded that these are by far the best of the best from the Parajubaea Family. They are prettier than Cocoides or Torallyii and seem to tolerate So Cal dry climate the best. I have never experienced a bug or other problem with these and they look good and grow all year. Gaston says these grow in a more humid climate in their native country, but they tolerate our dry climate much better than the other species. Sunkha is a stunner or a palm and I wish these would become a staple around So Cal landscapes. The only problem with Sunkha is the very slow growth rate as compared to other Parajubaea, this eliminates them from the landscape industry as a profitable product, but for us individual collectors it is in my opinion the best choice of Parajubaea for our region. I also love the small stature of Sunkha, I have a great feeling that when these begin to trunk, the cultivated Sunkha is going to be unbelievable.

That is my opinion from this genus, how do the rest of you see it?

Gary

Edited by gtlevine on Jun. 04 2006,00:13

--------------

Gary Le Vine

Escondido, Ca (San Diego County)

Zone 10b, 20 miles from the beach.

Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.

Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

 

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

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Funny to see my old comments reposted here. Since I made those observations I can update them. My P. Torralyi got the funk again and croaked. All my Cocoides are moving along and look ok but not as good as the ones grown within the marine influence. My P. Microcarpa still looks good, better than Torralyi, but my P. Sunkhas are beautiful and super strong growers. I lost one of my three Sunkha in the wildfires last fall, but my other two look great with one of them around 10 feet. No question Sunkha is the best looking of the four species and the best grower for me in my hot climate.

Gary

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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P. cocoides sure does well here in the SF Bay Area -- except when it gets too much shade or too little water. Planting in shade stunts it (suspended animation) and even causes a bit of winter crown rot. Too little water just seems to slow it down and cause its lower leaves to brown early. Temps below about 27F disfigure it but it bounces back fast.

The only P. torallyi I know of is Dick Douglas's, and it fared pretty well in the freeze of Jan. 07, seeming to suffer only cosmetic damage. I can't wait to see it again. I've not seen other Parajubaeas in this area yet, aside from the five-gallons we sell at the nursery where I work.

Jason Dewees

Inner Sunset District

San Francisco, California

Sunset zone 17

USDA zone 10a

21 inches / 530mm annual rainfall, mostly October to April

Humidity averages 60 to 85 percent year-round.

Summer: 67F/55F | 19C/12C

Winter: 56F/44F | 13C/6C

40-year extremes: 96F/26F | 35.5C/-3.8C

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My P. cocoides is growing fastest of all my Parajubaeas and is forming trunk after three years in the ground from a three leaf seedling. It suffered no damage from 26F in Jan. '07's freeze. My three torallyi are growing almost as fast. Two are in sun and the third is in the shade and all are growing at the same rate. My sunka is very very slow so far and even has undivided leaves still. I hope it picks up speed eventually. I water all of them often and deeply. Lastly, my Butia x Parajubaea is picking up speed and may end up being the fastest grower. We'll see.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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I knew when I planted my P. cocoides that it would be marginal with my cold winters, so I had to give it some overhead protection from some decidious Oaks. The freeze of '89/90 completely defoliated it and I thought it was dead, but it slowly recovered. Another freeze in '89 whacked it again, but then we had a series of mild winters and finally at long last it had a full crown, and it was really beautiful. It finally had about 10 feet of trunk, and then the winter of '06/07 zaped it again. Right now it's looking pretty sad as it takes about 3 years to grow a full crown after a bad freeze.

P. cocoides is definately the most sensitive to cold and I don't recommend it for Sunset zone 14, but they do great on the bay side of the Oakland hills where temps. rarely fall below 25F (-4C).

My two P. T V T have gone through two winters with a low of 23.5 and one suffered 60% foliage damage, but recovered rapidly the following summer. The other was undamaged. I have a nice 5 gal P. sunka and microcarpa and they will be planted in the next couple of weeks. The jury is still out on those two for my climate but I think they would all do better on the Bay side of the Oakland hills.

The winner by far is Butia X Parajubaea as it's gone through 2 cold winters with absolutely no cold damage and it's the fastest growing palm in my garden, even growing some in the winter. It's in a open area with no overhead protection and has been covered with heavy frost many times. It should be well over my head by the end of this summer. I would highly recommend this hybrid for anyone living inland where frosts can be expected. They are rare and pricey but well worth the money, and it's a beautiful palm. There are some growing in Central Fla. and Texas they take the heat and humidity as well as the cold.

Dick

  • Upvote 1

Richard Douglas

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After rereading this thread, Gary's report on P. Sunkha makes me belieive it might be the best species to cross with Butia. So far, all of the Butia X Parajubaes are a cross wilth P. cocoides, but only because it's the only pollen that has been available.

Patrick Schaffer recently made a 1000 mile round trip to collect some P. sunkha pollen from S. Calif. He didn't get as much pollen as he would have liked, but enough to attempt a Butia cross this summer when the Butias start blooming. It will be interesting to see if this cross is sucessfull and what develops.

Patrick visited me the other day and collected some seeds from a Butia that he pollinated last year with Jubaeopsis. Most of the seeds appeared to be dummys, but a few appeared to contain endocarp. This would be a sensational new hybrid if sucessfull. He said if he only got two seeds to germinate, he would consider it a sucessful cross.

Dick

  • Upvote 1

Richard Douglas

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(Alberto @ Apr. 14 2008,20:23)

QUOTE
Digging in the IPS Palm Talk Archive,i found this comments about Parajubaeas,written By Gary Levine.

My fastest and best growing is P.sunkha, second is P.torallyi var.torallyi and P.torallyi var. microcarpa third.I don´t have P.cocoides.

What is your best performing Parajubaea??

Alberto.

*** G.Levine:

I think I have come to some conclusions regarding the genus Parajubaea and their viability for growing in So Cal type climates.

Parajubaea Cocoides - I have seven of these, a couple that are eight to ten feet now. They have consistently grown in and out of a funk and have been succeptable to bugs at a young age. As they have gotten larger these problems seemed to have gone away. Several large specimens in and around Southern California have just up and died from crown rot, including the three specimens at the Huntington Botanical garden. The best ones so far are the ones planted close to the beach. I think Northern California is the perfect climate for these where a consistent cool coastal influence prevails.

Parajubaea Torallyi - I have three of these, my big one is getting quite large now, probably 15 feet tall and a steady grower. Inland or the coast they seem to do well equally. I have also seen problems with these around California, several of them just started to lean over with the roots die back on one side of the palm. Mine had this problem and I dug the whole thing up when it was a ten foot plant, I soaked the root ball in Malathion and Subdue Fungicide, straitened it out and replanted it. I thought it was a goner, but it re-rooted and is now growing strongly again and looks very healthy.

Parajubae Microcarpa - Very similar to Torallyi but finer leaf and smaller in stature. Not as fast a grower as Toralyii, but steady. I grew one from a two leaf seedling in the ground for five years and it is now about five feet tall. Might be a better choice than Toralyii but still to early to say.

Parajubaea Sunkha - I have three of them, two I grew from seedlings, and one was a five gallon or so. They are now about five to eight feet tall. I have concluded that these are by far the best of the best from the Parajubaea Family. They are prettier than Cocoides or Torallyii and seem to tolerate So Cal dry climate the best. I have never experienced a bug or other problem with these and they look good and grow all year. Gaston says these grow in a more humid climate in their native country, but they tolerate our dry climate much better than the other species. Sunkha is a stunner or a palm and I wish these would become a staple around So Cal landscapes. The only problem with Sunkha is the very slow growth rate as compared to other Parajubaea, this eliminates them from the landscape industry as a profitable product, but for us individual collectors it is in my opinion the best choice of Parajubaea for our region. I also love the small stature of Sunkha, I have a great feeling that when these begin to trunk, the cultivated Sunkha is going to be unbelievable.

That is my opinion from this genus, how do the rest of you see it?

Gary

Edited by gtlevine on Jun. 04 2006,00:13

--------------

Gary Le Vine

Escondido, Ca (San Diego County)

Zone 10b, 20 miles from the beach.

The comment by Gaston("sunkha grows in a more humid climate") has me wondering if the wet winters and not the heat are the dominant effect in determining which species is most adaptable to socal.  Wet winters would lead to possible fungus problems and poor root health in dry loving palms.  Chris78 reported that torallyi var torallyi did well in phoenix(a small specimen for sure) with probably more consistent heat than you will see in SD county, but with dry winters being typical here.  I am interested as I ordered some torallyi var torallyi seedlings, they should be here any day.  I have found that in other species that like dry roots(Bismarckis) cold tolerance may be related to how dry the roots are kept.  I had a bizzie croak this past winter that was in a relative wet spot, while 3 other went sailing through the winter even though they were planted in colder microenvironments.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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(sonoranfans @ Apr. 15 2008,14:13)

QUOTE
The comment by Gaston("sunkha grows in a more humid climate") has me wondering if the wet winters and not the heat are the dominant effect in determining which species is most adaptable to socal.  Wet winters would lead to possible fungus problems and poor root health in dry loving palms.  Chris78 reported that torallyi var torallyi did well in phoenix(a small specimen for sure) with probably more consistent heat than you will see in SD county, but with dry winters being typical here.  I am interested as I ordered some torallyi var torallyi seedlings, they should be here any day.  I have found that in other species that like dry roots(Bismarckis) cold tolerance may be related to how dry the roots are kept.  I had a bizzie croak this past winter that was in a relative wet spot, while 3 other went sailing through the winter even though they were planted in colder microenvironments.

There are good specimens of P. cocoides and torallyi in parts of Auckland that average over 100 inch rainfall, much of it in winter.

I think Gaston also said that sunkha grows at the lowest elevation, in frost hollow areas. Therefore perhaps combining heat and cold tolerance better than the other species?

Waimarama New Zealand (39.5S, 177E)

Oceanic temperate

summer 25C/15C

winter 15C/6C

No frost, no heat

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(PalmGuyWC @ Apr. 15 2008,08:38)

QUOTE
After rereading this thread, Gary's report on P. Sunkha makes me belieive it might be the best species to cross with Butia. So far, all of the Butia X Parajubaes are a cross wilth P. cocoides, but only because it's the only pollen that has been available.

Patrick Schaffer recently made a 1000 mile round trip to collect some P. sunkha pollen from S. Calif. He didn't get as much pollen as he would have liked, but enough to attempt a Butia cross this summer when the Butias start blooming. It will be interesting to see if this cross is sucessfull and what develops.

Patrick visited me the other day and collected some seeds from a Butia that he pollinated last year with Jubaeopsis. Most of the seeds appeared to be dummys, but a few appeared to contain endocarp. This would be a sensational new hybrid if sucessfull. He said if he only got two seeds to germinate, he would consider it a sucessful cross.

Dick

I must question that; As far as I know there are no P. Sunkha mature enough in So Cal that have flowered. My large Sunkha is the largest I know of since it came from some of the first seed brought in to So Cal. If I'm wrong, I would like to know who has one larger than my 10  foot plant so I can see it.

Thanks,

Gary

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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(Bennz @ Apr. 15 2008,14:53)

QUOTE

(sonoranfans @ Apr. 15 2008,14:13)

QUOTE
The comment by Gaston("sunkha grows in a more humid climate") has me wondering if the wet winters and not the heat are the dominant effect in determining which species is most adaptable to socal.  Wet winters would lead to possible fungus problems and poor root health in dry loving palms.  Chris78 reported that torallyi var torallyi did well in phoenix(a small specimen for sure) with probably more consistent heat than you will see in SD county, but with dry winters being typical here.  I am interested as I ordered some torallyi var torallyi seedlings, they should be here any day.  I have found that in other species that like dry roots(Bismarckis) cold tolerance may be related to how dry the roots are kept.  I had a bizzie croak this past winter that was in a relative wet spot, while 3 other went sailing through the winter even though they were planted in colder microenvironments.

There are good specimens of P. cocoides and torallyi in parts of Auckland that average over 100 inch rainfall, much of it in winter.

I think Gaston also said that sunkha grows at the lowest elevation, in frost hollow areas. Therefore perhaps combining heat and cold tolerance better than the other species?

Then the question might be do they grow in clay soil in the wet.  Florida rains more than socal, yet bizzies(like to keep the roots dry in winter) prefer florida, where the soil drains better.  Socal soil drainage can be good to very poor.  I know nothing about auckland.  Are the soils clay with poor drainage?  I expect any high elevation species will have good soil drainage, by erosion due to gravity if nothing else.  Just trying to twist the data to meet my desired scenario.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Gary,

I don't who it was, but the P. sunkha belongs to an older gentleman in Orange County. He has a blooming sunkha but he's lost interest in Palms for the most part. I'm sure Patrick wouldn't have made a 1000 mile round trip if it wasn't P. sunkha. I think he had scouted it out before. Patrick has one of his own that has trunk and should bloom soon.

Dick

  • Upvote 1

Richard Douglas

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(PalmGuyWC @ Apr. 15 2008,16:29)

QUOTE
Gary,

I don't who it was, but the P. sunkha belongs to an older gentleman in Orange County. He has a blooming sunkha but he's lost interest in Palms for the most part. I'm sure Patrick wouldn't have made a 1000 mile round trip if it wasn't P. sunkha. I think he had scouted it out before. Patrick has one of his own that has trunk and should bloom soon.

Dick

Thats fantastic, I wish someone could post some pictures of it.

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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OK, first try on the new forum. Cool.

Ive been trying all three. They all sailed through last years nasty winter (mid 20s F) no probllems.

P cocoides has been growing well here, no problems so far. Seems to grow best in Spring and Fall and takes a bit of a rest in mid Summer and Winter. We have magnificent sandy loam soil with excellent drainage, 15+ inches of rain (mostly in winter) and low summer humiidity.

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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The P cocoides at the UC Berkeley arboretum and the Lakeside Palmetum in Oakland are doing excellent. Heres a recenpost-376-1208594927_thumb.jpgt shot of the one in Berkeley.

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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P torallyi torallyi and P sunkha are both doing well here also but are still very small. I gave a P sunkha to a friend of mine in Pacific Grove (Monterey, CA) and its doing great also.

Glenn

Modesto, California

 

Sunset Zone 14   USDA 9b

 

Low Temp. 19F/-7C 12-20-1990         

 

High Temp. 111F/43C 07-23-2006

 

Annual Average Precipitation 13.12 inches/yr.

 

             

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  • 2 months later...
I knew when I planted my P. cocoides that it would be marginal with my cold winters, so I had to give it some overhead protection from some decidious Oaks. The freeze of '89/90 completely defoliated it and I thought it was dead, but it slowly recovered. Another freeze in '89 whacked it again, but then we had a series of mild winters and finally at long last it had a full crown, and it was really beautiful. It finally had about 10 feet of trunk, and then the winter of '06/07 zaped it again. Right now it's looking pretty sad as it takes about 3 years to grow a full crown after a bad freeze.

P. cocoides is definately the most sensitive to cold and I don't recommend it for Sunset zone 14, but they do great on the bay side of the Oakland hills where temps. rarely fall below 25F (-4C).

My two P. T V T have gone through two winters with a low of 23.5 and one suffered 60% foliage damage, but recovered rapidly the following summer. The other was undamaged. I have a nice 5 gal P. sunka and microcarpa and they will be planted in the next couple of weeks. The jury is still out on those two for my climate but I think they would all do better on the Bay side of the Oakland hills.

The winner by far is Butia X Parajubaea as it's gone through 2 cold winters with absolutely no cold damage and it's the fastest growing palm in my garden, even growing some in the winter. It's in a open area with no overhead protection and has been covered with heavy frost many times. It should be well over my head by the end of this summer. I would highly recommend this hybrid for anyone living inland where frosts can be expected. They are rare and pricey but well worth the money, and it's a beautiful palm. There are some growing in Central Fla. and Texas they take the heat and humidity as well as the cold.

Dick

Dick,

Where did you purchase your Butia x Parajubaea? I have been looking for one.

Thanks,

Marisha

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Mrisha,

Patrick Schaffer may have some. His E-mail address is PLS@Hughes.net.

Dick

  • Upvote 1

Richard Douglas

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