Geonoma undata

[MattyB]

It's been a while since we've discussed this palm.  I just wanted to bring it up again.  It's one of my favorites and it's just about ready to plant out this year.

Here it is on 11-05 in a 2 gallon pot.

And here it is today.  I put it in a 15 gallon pot a couple of months ago.

From past discussion I believe this is the lowland form of G. undata.  It's quite heat tolerant (it actually grows faster in the heat) but dosen't throw a red leaf.  It does have a nice read petiole and rachis.

[MattyB]

Typical leaf detail.

All the leaves just started doing this tipping thing a couple of weeks ago.  I don't know if it's from moving things around in the greenhouse and exposing it to brighter light or if it's from the change in humidity levels since I'm starting to open up the greenhouse as it gets warmer...I don't know but I was worried it was rotting in the roots.  But it's still growing so I'm not panicking yet.  My greenhouse is extremely bright and as the suns angle gets more intense this spring it's getting even brighter in this spot.

It's got some red under all the fibers.  Hopefully someday this will grow to reveal a nice red patch at the bottom of the leaf bases.

Dan in SF just got Jungle Music to ship him one from the latest batch that's ready now.  I was wondering how these babies are doing for you guys?  I got some seed but didn't have any luck germinating them.  I was wondering if they're the red emergent leaf, high elevation form, or like the one I'm growing.  How's your G. undata?

[Dan OKeeffe]

Matt thanks for starting this thread and your plants look GREAT!  I just received the liners from Phil yesterday.  They do not have the red emergent leaf as I can see so far.  Hopefully they the next leafs will be red or at least I hope these G Undata will thrive in my cool micro-climate.  I will post pics tonight.  

Matt where have you read about the Geonoma Undatas?

Thanks

[MattyB]

The only info I've gotten was from this board.  Check the archive.  Also, I think Darold in SF has a knowledge of these guys too.

[Dan OKeeffe]

Matt Thanks.  I spoke Darold about these palms and he stated there is quite a bit of variation of this palm.   Some like cool temp and others enjoy the heat.  He has three and one of them is really taking off and has about 1ft of trunk.

[Shon]

Matty yours is as big as Rusty's which has been in the ground for about 5yrs? It has a reddish new leaf and he says it grows better for him in the winter. But it is slow one to two leafs a year I recall him saying. Very nice palm even when small.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Matty

The one that i bought from Phil (jungle music) died in Quarantine, killed by the Methyl bromide gas. After bringing back to Australia and being prepared to wait 2 years to get it back from Quarantine it was disappointing to loose it, If anyone can sell me some seed it would be greatly appreciated, pm me if you can help

thanks

Colin

[Caryota_gigas]

Here are some pics of what you have to look forward too...

In Auckland NZ.

[Jeff Searle]

Michael,

Those are some really nice pictures. I would love to grow this palm but it comes from high altitudes I think. Can you tell me at what altitude their found in habitat? Thanks,

Jeff

[ghar41]

This is a great palm. Thanks for the pictures Michael.

Too bad my dry heat and clear cold nights would send it to palm heaven.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Jeff, according to PACSOA, in Columbia they start occurring at 1900m (6,233 ft) but are most vigorous at 2100m (6,889 ft) where it's cool and moist all the time. Another stunning palm I can't grow here. I need to move up into the mountains.

[Caryota_gigas]

I think they have been found down to 1300m.

[Caryota_gigas]

The ones pictured are growing at less than 200m in Auckland, New Zealand in an area that rarely sees frost anymore, with average summer temps around 22°C (15° overnight) Highs of no more than 32°C.

[Darold Petty]

My plants of Geonoma undata are the high elevation form propagated by Dick Endt. I purchased three plants from Landsendt in January of 2001. G. undata has a wide range of geographic location and altitude. My palms came from a wild population in southern Ecuador, south of the city of Loja at an approximate elevation of 2600 m (8500 ft). In 1996 I collected seed from supposed G. undata at 1560 m (4800 ft) along the highway from Quito toward Tinalandia on the western Andean slope. This lower elevation form failed to grow in my garden, but I believe this might be the form Matty B is growing in San Diego.

I planted the first of my three palms on June 28th, 2001. It now has 61 cm (24") of clean trunk with diameter of 15 cm (4.8"). I have also grown G. weberbaueri, but with poor results and have no surviving plants.

My high elevation form of G. undata is a true cloud forest plant. It wants very bright light, but not all-day harsh sun: high humidity, constant moisture, and cool temperatures with little day/night variation. If the potting medium of a potted plant dries out, it is always fatal. The plants grow leaves quickly all 12 months of the year and actually slow down during warmer weather.

The two pictures show my largest of the three plants, the leaf coloration in the photo is muted, and the color in life is often darker and more dramatic. The leafbase photo was taken just after two leaf abcissions in a short time. The color will darken all the way down in time.

In a related thread, there is a discussion of palms at the extremities of their range. I am growing a palm from 4' south latitude and 2600 m. Here in San Francisco, my garden is 38' north latitude and 85 m elevation!

[LJG]

Darold, I have seen lots of pictures of your garden but I have never seen you post a photo of this beauty. You were holding out!

[BS Man about Palms]

Ditto what Len said!

[joe_OC]

Matty,

Sweet palm! You have quite the collection there...Can't wait to see your yard in person...hint hint hint

[Shon]

Len's right Darold you have been holding out. Is yours the biggest in Cali? I have only seen ones that are about 5 gal size. Got a pic of the whole palm?

[Darold Petty]

In post # 8, the palms featured are at the Landsendt nursery. Dick Endt's first seed collection was in 1990, so these were most likely planted in 1991. You can read Dick's account of the collection in an article for Chamaerops, the journal of the European Palm Society at www.palmsociety.org. (Sorry, I'm not adept enough with the computer to provide a working hyperlink.) Yes, Shon I have been 'holding out', but only because it is so difficult for me to use the computer. The article "So you want to add a Photo?" by John in Andalucia was most helpful in getting me started with photos. Here is one more eye-candy shot, a juvenile Hedyscepe that I raised from seed!

[Darold Petty]

I will try to post a photo of the entire plant. However, I don't have access to my camera for about 10 days, and also, my garden is so small and congested that it is difficult to get a clear shot of any one palm!

[Dan OKeeffe]

Here is the link Darold is speaking of

http://www.palmsociety.org/public/english/...s/031_1_1.shtml

[olivier971]

Here is some pictures of G undata taken in Guadeloupe (more or less 1300 m alt.)

[olivier971]

[olivier971]

[MattyB]

Oliver,

That looks different to me. Could this possibly be G. interupta?

[PalmGuyWC]

Does anyone know where G.undata can be purchased? This sounds like a perfect palm for the Stribing at Golden Gate park and the Oakland Palmatum.

Dick

[John in Andalucia]

Does anyone know where G.undata can be purchased? This sounds like a perfect palm for the Stribing at Golden Gate park and the Oakland Palmatum.

Dick

Dick -

RPS have Geonoma undata and Dictyocaryum lamarckianum seeds in stock. I nearly fell off my chair when I saw these two species for sale. I've been after them for a while.

[MattyB]

Jungle Music had seedlings last time I heard.

[PalmGuyWC]

Thanks John,

I had to look up dityocaryum lamarckianum to see what it was, as I had never heard of it before. It sure is a beautiful palm but all of those cool cloud forest palms are hard to grow. Hopefully someone in the SF Bay Area will get some seeds of those rare palms and we might see them growing in the Bay Area in the future. I expect they would grow in a moist, shady area in San Francisco, probably New Zealand too.

Dick

[olivier971]

Oliver,

That looks different to me. Could this possibly be G. interupta?

i think no

the two species are naturally in guadeloupe

here are pictures of g interrupta in guadeloupe

[Scott]

Real nice Matt! These seem light sensative?

Hope the brown on the leaves isn't serious.

[MattyB]

It was. It's dead since last year. Tough grow.

[Scott]

Ooooh! I'm sorry.... Well that means you have to get another one! Does that one require a higher humidity level?

[MattyB]

Probably. It always suffered during my late Spring / early Summer opening of the greenhouse. This is when the humidity gets lower in my greenhouse. Then it was looking really bad last year so I decided that I'd get it in the ground to see if it could pull out of it. It couldn't.

[LJG]

Matt, sounds like the highland form is the only one that will make it. I guess it is important to ask Phil if he knows where his seed came from.

[MattyB]

Why would the highland form better though? You'd think the lowland form would be tougher. Matt in SD has one from the same batch as I did and it's continued to look crappy. It might be dead now too considering how bad it looked last time I saw it. And Matt is one of the best growers around, with impeccable looking palms all over that Linda Vista yard.

[LJG]

I would guess they could handle the cold better to put them in better shape to handle the summer heat. A weak winter palm, goes into summer weak. Same in reverse. Example a sun burned summer palm, goes into winter weak. My guess would be finding the coolest area of your yard and putting it there. I have a few places in my yard that are 5 degrees cooler in summer the the rest and if it gets real hot, I turn on sprinklers and drop it even more in these spots.

Of course there is no science to these comments. Just a hypothesis based off a hyperbole.

[MattyB]

Great points Len. I wanna try the high form (emergent red leaf) anyways.

[Dan OKeeffe]

Matt,

Do you think it was the lack of humidity or the heat that killed your Undata? I have three indoors that I would like to put outside. I have plenty of humidity but no heat.

Thanks

Dan

[Matt in SD]

Might as well add the tale of my G undata. I got it from Phil as a seedling a long time ago. It grew very fast in my greenhouse, the only scare being that mites really like them. So it had a few bouts with mites but once I figured that out it really grew well and looked great. I Planted it in a shady part of the yard, just North of a fence that had a thick hedge of oleander on the other side. It did great in the ground for about a year. I then cut the oleander hedge down, which increased the light level a bit, but I think also increased the temps probably a lot because the sun then directly hit the fence. It stopped growing almost immediately, and I thought it would die, but it then started growing again and looked OK for a short period (but never as good as it did in my greenhouse, or shortly after planting). It has since declined very slowly over several years. It always grew and put out leaves, but did not gain size, and it held fewer and fewer good leaves. Hard to say if it's dead at this point, but it's definitely beyond repair.

I think the increased heat and light from cutting the oleander hedge is a reasonable theory for why it declined. However I am a bit suspicious because I also had a Geonoma schottiana that I grew from a 1g to a nice, trunking and beautiful specimen that declined at about the same time as the G undata. So I do wonder if there was some sort of disease that hit them both (they were pretty far a apart...but still they were two healthy, happy palms that are related and went into decline at about the same time).

I'm not sure that I'll bother trying G undata again, although my new place is definitely a bit cooler than my old one. I do have a Geonoma gamiova that I'm pretty excited about, should be ready to plant in about a year.

Matt