Jump to content
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT LOGGING IN ×
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Dypsis Pilulifera/Orange Crush ??????


Gtlevine

Recommended Posts

After thinking about Bo's post with the identity of Orange Crush as Pilulifera, I broke out POM and have these observations.

JD describes Pilulifera as follows: (Pg 161, POM)

LEAVES - 4-9, tristichous, slightly arching: sheath 1.1-1.7 m long, 3mm thick, abaxially green, pale brown to peach-coloured with some wax and with slightly large (3-8 x 1-2 mm) reddish-tomentose scales, the continuous cover flaking and glabrescent, with desintegrating auricles of c. 4x6 cm;

In all the Orange Crush I have seen, I have not seen tomentose scales.

petiloe absent or up to 40 cm long, with the same indument as the sheath but with only remnants of the scales present, 7 x 4 cm in diameter., canaliculate; rachis 2.9-5 m long, mid-leaf c. 2x1.5cm, with small scattered scales, proximally canaliculate distally keeled; leaflets grouped and fanned or slightly irregular, 70-144 on each side of the rachis, closely set, the proximal 56-160 x 0.5-1.8 cm, median 88-124 x 2.4-3.7 cm, distal 10-44 x 0.4-2cm, glabrous or with minute scattered scales, with distant red ramenta, main vein 1, with unequally acute apices.

The key problem I see with the above physical description is where JD describes the leaflets as grouped and fanned or slightly irregular. If you refer to JD's Key to Dypsis on page 130, you will see that no known Dypsis "Orange Crush" in any of our collections, has grouped or irregular leaflets. The distinguishing feature of all "Orange Crush", is the regular leaflets.

On page 162, JD describes PIlulifera as "close to D. Mananjarensis, from which it can be distinguished by the indument: reddish tomentose scales in D. Pilulifera, agains large white waxy scales in D. Manangarensis.

This description by JD clearly describes Pillulifera as an almost similar palm to Manangarensis. Dypsis " Orange Crush does not even remotely come close to the description given by JD in POM, it is unique and unambiguous and cannot, by it's physical description, be Dypsis Pilulifera. If the flower was identified as Bo indicated, then it may be possible that the two palms have similar flowers, or the description for Pilulifera in POM is not accurate.

Bo, please look at your Dypsis "Orange Crush", and compare them to the physical description presented in POM. My "Orange Crush are large, but lack trunk, so you may better compare all aspects of your palms with those given under the name Pilulifera in POM.

Gary Le Vine

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary,

    I cannot add much to this whole story. I have what I'm reasonally confident D. sp.Orange Crush or Dypsis pilulifera. They all small( 5' no trunk)and in the ground.  They are showing some orange color down at the ground level on the base of the palm.I grew these several years ago from seed and here's the million dollar question. About half of these have group or irregular leaves and half look completely different having regular leaflets. I am totally convinced that this palm that I have can produce two different leaf forms. Without a doubt. I wonder if anyone else has seen this also, maybe John can comment further.

  Jeff

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary,

Well, it's dark here now, but I'll have a look at some of them in the morning. Having said that, John Dransfield is probably the only person who can help us out.

I agree that a distinguishing feature is the regular leaflets, and I don't quite understand the description in POM. I have more than 50 in the ground with regular leaflets, and I have ONE with irregular leaflets. I know Jeff thinks they may be one and the same, and maybe he is right, and the fact that I have 50 with regular leaflets and just one with irregular is a fluke... Seems very farfetched, but who knows. Maybe the irregular leaflet version is the most common in habitat? I tend to believe that the one with irregular grouped leaflets is a different species, but I'm open for suggestions...

For easy comparison I'm posting photos of both. First, the regular leaflet version

post-22-1164515672_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And now for the one with groups of irregular leaflets. Seems quite different I think!

post-22-1164515742_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gary,

 

   I can't add anything more than Bo. And if he is going to check the other features of the description in the morning, I'll just stress my observation that of all the individuals I have ever seen, the leaflets are almost perfect in their regularity.

   More importantly, thanks for such a well written, concise, and easily understood dissertation of such a difficult subject to articulate, and for bringing it to our attention.

   I can hardly wait for JD's response.

See you soon.

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Dean, and I will look forward to more info from Bo in the morning as well.

Besides the description of the palm in POM, re-read the final observation by JD (pg 162, POM) which I quoted in my post above. I interpret JD's description as Pilulifera to be identical palm to Manangarensis, only distinguishable by the reddish tomentose scales in Pilulifera, against large white waxy scales in D. Manangarensis. I don't think any of us can argue that there is no resemblance between "Orange Crush" and Manangarensis, therefore Pilulifera cannot be "Orange Crush".

Gary

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Gary,

I was going to mention that I don't even see a superficial resemblance to Mananjarensis.

I just sent JD an email asking for assistance.

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just a hypothesis, but there are so many "variable" Malagasy species, that this just may be one of the many. Think of D. decipiens for example.

Christian Faulkner

Venice, Florida - South Sarasota County.

www.faulknerspalms.com

 

Μολὼν λάβε

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would theorize that palms of the same species can show different leaf arrangments.  Think about palms grown in shade and stretched, or ones that sustain periods of drought, insect damage, etc.  These factors can affect the leaflet patterns, albeit slightly (grouped leaflets are definitely different from regularly arranged leaflets).

ID's based on floral characteristics focus on number of stamens, shape and size of the pistil, and petal size and shape (as well as other factors obviously).  But the question is, can palms with the same inflorescences and grown in the same spot, develop different leaflet arrangments???

We need the doc.

JD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all, well the big question is the name of this D. sp from what I've seen come out of madagascar it seems like most of the palm sp have a twin if not looking alike the seed is identical. When this palm first came to Australia it came in as   D. brevicaulis and there were two different palms sp that germinated from this seed batch one with ruminate embryo and one with hom.... endosperm one grew into what you guys call orange crush we called D. tsaraovirsa and the other into a palm very similar to D. madagacarensis but solitary. At this time some 16 years ago I asked John Dransfield about them one of the seeds fitted the description of D. tsaravoasira and the other..?? This probabley does not make it any easier but maybe help sort out a small part of the puzzel for this palm sp,  one thing must be said that the orange colour only last a few weeks after old  leaf base falls off thats here in Australia ! I think most of these slower dypsis will keep us guessing for awhile to come which is half the

fun of it!!  They look great planted in clumps I think I put 10 in one hole should look good in years to come. ps I should be able to put some photos of the new lemuriophoenix  on shortly this should get the palm talk going.

  • Upvote 1

Sunshine Coast Queensland Australia

Minimum 3.C -------- maximum 43.C Average Annual Rainfall 1700mm

IPS Membership since 1991

PLANT MORE PALMS TO SOOTH THE SOUL

www.utopiapalmsandcycads.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Clayton,

 Thanks for the imput. And hopefuly we will here from JD soon with his comments.

  Side note......Clayton, I'v been waiting a long time to see you get registered. I can't wait to see your future pics! Sit back everyone!

  Jeff

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Zac in NC @ Nov. 26 2006,08:25)

QUOTE
Wait....There is a new Lemurophoenix!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ???

Zac

I had heard there were two types......

the hard to find and grow type..

and the REALLY hard to find and grow type...

:laugh:

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, I checked a number of my Orange crush and this is what I found:

First of all, unless I don't know what I'm looking for, I see no reddish-tomentose scales. Furthermore, ALL the individuals I checked (more than 25, and all with trunk) show what I would consider very regular leaflets. I.e. no groupings of 2-3 or whatever. All the leaflets are evenly spaced (except the ones at the very tip - they do have a little bit more distance between them).

Here are some comparisons:

D. pilulifera, acc. to POM

10-40 cm diameter and 10-12 cm near crownshaft

internodes 20-60 cm apart

4-9 leaves

rachis 2.9-5.0 m long

70-144 leaflets (on either side)

My findings:

30 cm diameter at the base and 15-16 cm near crownshaft (this was VERY concistent)

internodes 16-18 cm apart, again very concistent

6-8 leaves, not counting the new unopened spike

rachis approx 4.0 m long - again very concistent

108-125 leaflets.

I should mention that I did NOT include the individual that I have a photo of above (in Post #4). I am not convinced this is an Orange crush and felt it would confuse the situation if I included it.

One more thing: the petiole is completely absent in ALL the individuals I looked at. (D. pilulifera acc. to POM: petiole absent or up to 40 cm long).

Bo-Göran

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not qualified. I'm expecting a bunch of experts on Saturday afternoon, and by by the time they leave I would be very disappointed if I don't have a proper botanical name for all of my mystery Dypsis! :P

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Bo, it sounds like you actually verified the main points in POM. No scales and regular leaflets are typical of "Orange Crush", not Piluifiera. Second, Pilulifera is more similar to Manangarensis. I am curious to hear from JD on this, but I don't think Orange Crush is even similar to Piluifera.

Gary

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to be long in joining the discussion - I have had visitors over the weekend and no time to comment. Some very valid observations have been made.

The material that Bo posted to me is an excellent match for Dypsis pilulifera as far as flowers and fruit are concerned - it was based on this that I made the identification. There is another reason too. The palm photographed in POM - the tall canopy emergent - had the same extraordianry orange-crush crownshaft and the inflorescence in bud was also a similar colour. You wouldn't believe it from the lousy pic! However, I know other Malagasy palms show the colour. You have all noted that we say leaflets grouped or slightly irregular. Some variation does exist in leaflet regularity in many species of palms. On balance it is more economical to assume such variation exists when flowers and fruit seem the same. However, I am now much more concerned about the lack of scales that Bo has confirmed in this message thread. Unfortunately, I am now at home in Wales for the next week and shall not be back at Kew until next week, when I can go through, again, all our material of Dypsis pilulifera to see what the scales on the sheaths are like.

We have had recently collected material from forest east of Antananarivo which matches D. pilulifera in alllrespects but has regular leaflets - it, however, has a green crownshaft.

This may sound as if I am making excuses, but it has to be said that the large canopy dypsis posed extraordinary problems for us when we wrote POM. The trouble is that general collectors in the past made very poor collections of these palms and interpreting the scraps we find in the herbarium is a real challenge. I want to warn you about taking the descriptions in POM as being gospel truth. They are only true to what we knew in 1995 - more material has accumulated, we know palms better in the field, and there is a great gang of you all out there growing them and becoming more familiar with them in cultivation than anyone.

So, where does this leave us at the moment. I think we all know what we mean by Dypsis orange crush.  Can we last another week with this sobriquet until I have checked the vegetative material in the herbarium.

John

John Dransfield

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi John

          This dypsis loses the orange colour and terns green quite quickly, I don’t think you were to far off in 1995.  Could you tell us anything about D. Hovitrendrina ?, or is it D. hovomandrina ?????Clayton.

  • Upvote 1

Sunshine Coast Queensland Australia

Minimum 3.C -------- maximum 43.C Average Annual Rainfall 1700mm

IPS Membership since 1991

PLANT MORE PALMS TO SOOTH THE SOUL

www.utopiapalmsandcycads.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John - thanks for your insight, especially regarding the difficulties w/herbarium material & published literature not being the gospel truth; many folks need it spelled out (namely, myself)

I get by with a little help from my fronds

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John,

Thanks a lot for your in-depth explanation! I'm sure we all look forward to your findings next week!

For what it's worth, I just took a few photos of "Orange crush" crownshafts, which BTW all seem to be right around 1 m. long (D. pilulifera in POM: sheath 1.1-1.7 m. long).

Here a four different individuals, showing (as can be expected) some difference.

Bo-Göran

Number 1

post-22-1164679998_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Number 2

post-22-1164680029_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Number 3

post-22-1164680057_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And number 4

post-22-1164680090_thumb.jpg

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

One more Orange crush revival for madagascarbob. And one more coming up!

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What a fantastic looking palm.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Follow me, don't follow me

I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush

Collar me, don't collar me

I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush

REM

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Wal @ May 30 2007,13:00)

QUOTE
Follow me, don't follow me

I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush

Collar me, don't collar me

I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush

REM

Yep-

Rapid Eye Movement, the Orange Soda, the old Denver Broncos defense, and Bo's palms are what I think of when I hear or read "Orange Crush".  :D:P

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 years later...
On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2006‎ ‎3‎:‎05‎:‎06‎, Dypsisdean said:

Bo,

You didn't arrive at any conclusions.  :)

:interesting:

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Moose, for your update Orange Crush is NOT pilulifera. However it goes back to being unnamed..

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...