Kentiopsis oliviformis

[Phil]

Although this winter is far better, last winter in So Cal was a real education for all of us about cold hardiness.  It was a 60 year record for cold.  We learned that Archonotophoenix purpurea is not as cold tolerant as cumminghamiana and perhaps some other King species.  We saw Howea forsteriana suffer.  Big Royal Palms took a hit.  On the other side, however, were some winners.  Bismarckia made it through most areas.  Beccariophoenix "no windows" looked good.  But, a real sleeper was Kentiopsis oliviformis.  Ours that were outdoors and saw 25 degrees didn't blink an eye.   Feedback from even the Central Valley area of CA was encouraging.   Could Kentiopsis oliviformis be one of the bettter crownshafted palms for cold?  On the freeze damage discussion on this Site, most had good results except for Dave.  As this species has a "King Palm-look", perhaps it should be planted more than the Archontophoenix in areas with cold risk.

 

Phil

[cfkingfish]

I agree, it is a true sleeper, as are a few other New Caledonian palms that will also take full sun.

[Walt]

My Kentiopsis oliviformis has been in the ground more than three years now.

It's been exposed to below 32 degree temperatures on at least two occassions. The first was on 2/14/05 when my open yard temperature dropped to 27 degrees.

The second time, on 2/16/07 my open yard temperature was 29 degrees. Both events were radiational. My K. O. is somewhat sheltered by sparse tree canopy, so it may have seen slightly higher temperatures. I don't recall the duration of time below 32 degrees.

However, while the foliage seemed to do okay, with some fugal-like spots here and there, my palm seems to have been induced to a state of suspended animation.

My K. oliviformis did not open a single frond during 2007. This is a dead clue, from my cold/frost experience with palms, that this palm suffered cold damage. At least that is what I think.

I've dealt with so many species of zone 10a/b palms that were cold damaged, and the one thing they all had in common was that their growth rate dropped to about 1/4 of normal. Most never recovered, but languished for months, sometimes years, before sucumbing.

I hope that is not the case with my K. oliviformis.

This photo was taken prior to 2/14/06, the first time it was exposed to below 32 degree temperatures:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1510468319042496162FBHFgu

[Phil]

Walt and others,

Our here in California I know of several very large trunking plants in full sun.  I think they might have also set flowers.  So often Florida growers have different successes with species compared to us out here.  I'm waiting for feedback, but I think this species might be a good alternative to the King Palm for those in colder areas.

Phil

[jfkotas]

Phil,

My K.oliviformis, purchased from your nursery last June incidentally, is still pot-bound in a nice partially shaded spot on the side of my house where it will eventually be permanently placed.  It had an exceptional growing season last year and although the growth rate has slowed due to the cold temperatures (lowest temps have been in the 40s here in Ventura county), it remains nicely green and healthy. I wish I could post a pic with this post but am writing this at work this morning.

Jonathan Kotas

Moorpark, CA

[tikitiki]

Mine has seen several cold snaps through the past 5 or so years and has not slowed at all. I use mine for canopy now.

[Okie]

I have several planted within 60 feet of the Indian River in Brevard County, FL.  Not only can it take cold, but more importantly for around here, is salt and wind.

This palm is rock solid and truly "a landscaping beauty"

[SunnyFl]

If I remember right, the oliviformis was one of the palms at Fairchild that took my breath away - nice to hear it's a good choice for FL as well as California.  And it's growing up in Brevard, wow.

Okie - great to see your name again!  Remember the 6' fine-leafs I got from you a few years back?  Well they're about 10' now from ground to top of spear, planted out in the front yard.  I have a feeling these aren't going to be small palms!  And the little pseudophoenix is still a cute lil palm, very well-loved  Sure would like to see your nursery again.

Edited cuz I forgot to add: tikitiki, your oliviformis is very nice!  That is one gorgeous palm.

[Shon]

Tikitiki an olivformis canopy that is awesome.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Phil, thanks for bringing up this topic about one of my favorite palms.  I remember when a couple of them were first planted at Kopsick Palm Arboretum in St Petersburg and I instantly fell in love with them.  If I remember correctly, they were just beginning to trunk when they were planted 5 (or more?) years ago.  When I left FL, they had several feet of trunk on them, much faster palms than I had anticipated.  I never understood why they weren't used more in FL instead of the dreaded Adonidia merrillii (sorry, it's one of my least favorite overused palms!)

I have one small K oliviformis seedling now.  My only concern is that it's too wet here.  I read somewhere that it is not an ideal palm for Costa Rica, but I am trying it anyway.

[deezpalms]

I must agree with everyone else here. Even though my yard didn't get too low it's still just movin' right along! One of mine just opened a new frond last week and looks great! No spotting or discoloration at all!!

[Rod]

Phil:

My oliviformis took 23° in Phoenix in Jan. 07.  It took a while, but came back this summer.  I am totally amazed at this palm.  Previous lows of 27° didn't affect it at all.  Somewhat of a slower grower for me, it still is an attractive palm - one that every one that sees it asks about.

Rod

[Ken Johnson]

This is one very fine palm! Look for it to be a palm of the future.

[tropical1]

The recent cold snap here in Florida caused only minor burn to one frond. I think our low was around 29F.  I agree it could be a widely planted palm in the future

[Geoff]

Anyone have damage to their Cyphophoenix elegans or Dypsis saintluceis ?   I think these two will beat the Kentiopsis in cold hardiness, but mine are young.  still, they had little problems with the cold last winter.

[osideterry]

Geof - Have you had success with K. oliviformis? I'll definitely give one a try, but am concerned Walt's post might be applicable in SoCal Zone 9B.

[ruskinPalms]

Damn. I am going to have to order some seed for this one. I don't want to wait until it is for sale at Walmart. I am encouraged to hear the successes, but I am concerned with Walt's report because my climate is pretty much like his. But, I still think it is worth a try. By the way, Adonidia is not as much a wimp as people think. It took less damage than Cocos and Hyophorbe during this last trip into the upper 20's. Give it some credit! Back on topic. This is an incredibly beautiful palm! If it is as frost and cold hardy as Wodyetia, then it has a bright future here in the warmer parts of central FL. And given its native habitat, there is no doubt it is "cool" hardy and can take the long, cool but not freezing conditions of California and other Mediterranean areas. I am pumped about this palm!

[Jeff in St Pete]

Bill, I had an Adonidia die in Tampa after a brief cold snap where temps went below freezing for a couple hours.  It looked fine after the cold snap but slowly withered away until the summer when it collapsed.  It was about 4 ft tall and was perfectly healthy looking before the cold.  I guess there could have been something else wrong with it, but I was convinced it was the cold.  The larger ones do seem to fare better during freezes, but I have seen many of them replaced over the years in Tampa.  I just never understood why that palm was so heavily "pushed" in Tampa by HD and Lowes when there are other more suitable and fast growing palms that would fare better (like Archontophoenix).  There were a few people in Tampa that were growing Archontophoenix's and they looked magnificent and seemed to take the cold much better than Adonidia.  Hopefully there will be some better choices available soon like Kentiopsis which I suspect is a little more cold hardy than Adonidia also.  Just my own personal opinion.  

[DoomsDave]

Gee, I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

I've got four K-Os in the ground.  

The one in the shade is definitely happier all around than the others out in the sun.  It did not suffer any damage from the cold last winter, and it's about twice as big, though I think it's the first one I put in the ground, about a year before the others.

The upper part of my yard had about 27 F for four days straight, all night long from what I can tell.  

In contrast, the exposed specimens took a serious hit.  The one next to my dearly departed R. oleracea suffered about 50-60% leaf damage, though it has recovered some.

Another suffered burn to the extent that it stuck out from under another plant.

Another was planted this year after the freeze more or less out in the open.

There are a number of explainations.  Maybe what I think are K-Os aren't, though no one's argued when I've shown them, and they sure look like the specimens pictured elsewhere in this thread.

And, I'm UP THE HILL from Louis Hooper's MAGNIFICENT TRUNKING SPECIMEN.  If my memory serves, his suffered no damage at all.  

Go figure.

Things that hurt, teach!  I sure learned a lot.  I took a hard hit up here.  It got down to about 20 F more or less in the back forty of my yard.  A Phoenix reclinata suffered serious damage, though it came back.  There were pockets of frozen Nerium oleander around the 'hood, too.

And, this is even wierder.  . . .

My A. purpereas didn't suffer any damage at all, protected or not.  Tuckeri and alexandrae suffered serious damage, in the pots or in the ground where they were exposed to the open sky.  A number were killed outright, though most of my potted specimens snapped out of it, and will go into the ground this year.  The bigger plants in the ground fared much better.

Go figure.  I'm starting to feel really looney!

[DoomsDave]

(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 21 2008,23:43)

QUOTE

Damn. I am going to have to order some seed for this one. I don't want to wait until it is for sale at Walmart. I am encouraged to hear the successes, but I am concerned with Walt's report because my climate is pretty much like his. But, I still think it is worth a try. By the way, Adonidia is not as much a wimp as people think. It took less damage than Cocos and Hyophorbe during this last trip into the upper 20's. Give it some credit! Back on topic. This is an incredibly beautiful palm! If it is as frost and cold hardy as Wodyetia, then it has a bright future here in the warmer parts of central FL. And given its native habitat, there is no doubt it is "cool" hardy and can take the long, cool but not freezing conditions of California and other Mediterranean areas. I am pumped about this palm!

Yow, you got COLD where you were!

I was sitting in my Patel Motel room watching the temperatures plummet in my last few days in Florida.

My one night in Ruskin was cold, too, right after Christmas though it warmed up a lot the following day.

[ruskinPalms]

Jeff: Crap... All my Adonidia palms look to have taken no more than the usual winter spotting so far. I hope they don't croak later this spring and summer. That would suck. Funny enough, there are Phoenix roebellini around town that look as burnt if not more burnt than the worst of the Adonidia damage that I have seen. I agree that most of the Archotophoenix species look better after the freeze. My two true A. cunninghamiana took 0%, I repeat 0% damage from this dry, advective freeze. Whereas the A. alexandrae I have did take anywhere from 10% to 25% foliar damage.

Dave: if you really saw 20F to the low 20s and even one of these palms survived then I think they are pretty damn tough. I think I would lose most of my garden under 26F.

[ruskinPalms]

Dave, it does get damn cold here. Too cold for what I am trying to grow. I know that I will lose most of my garden sometime soon to a freak unpredicted radiational freeze or to a predicted advective freeze. As my oak canopy grows in, things will get a little better though.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Here's a pic of K oliviformis from last year, planted out in full blazing Florida sun at Kopsick Palm Arboretum.  

I would love to see these planted more around St Petersburg and Tampa.    

[Urban Rainforest]

Last winters cold was a real learning experience and I agree with everyone else that the KO. is one cold hardy palm. In my front yard I have Kentiopsis Oliviformis, Allosmidia Glabrata and Cyphophoenix Elegans all planted in close proximity to each other. The KO and Cypho were unscathed while the Allosmidia froze down to the spear. Interestingly I had mixed results on palms that lost all their fronds except the new spear. Hear are some and what they have done in a years time.

Allosmidia Glabrata   one frond

Burretiokentia Viellardii     one frond

Chambeyronia Macrocarpa (trunking)   3 fronds and a spear about to open!

Dypsis Leptocheilos lost all 8 fronds, has since thrown 4 more.

Also the KO and Cyphophoenix Elegans were feet away from Archontophoenix Purpureas and Howea Forsterianas that saw major cold damage.

Steve

[Urban Rainforest]

Heres a few pics. These pics are well over a year old so palms are bigger now except for my Allosmidia which shrunk. Here is KO.

[Urban Rainforest]

and another view.

[Urban Rainforest]

Cyphophoenix Elegans

[Urban Rainforest]

And Allosmidia Glabrata in better days.

[Jeff in St Pete]

(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 22 2008,00:40)

QUOTE

My two true A. cunninghamiana took 0%, I repeat 0% damage from this dry, advective freeze. Whereas the A. alexandrae I have did take anywhere from 10% to 25% foliar damage.

Bill, A cunninghamiana is an amazing palm for the Tampa area.  I had a bunch of them planted in my yard and they never had any cold damage and grew like weeds!  Of course I AM partial to Archonto's.

[DoomsDave]

(ruskinPalms @ Jan. 22 2008,00:40)

QUOTE

Dave: if you really saw 20F to the low 20s and even one of these palms survived then I think they are pretty damn tough. I think I would lose most of my garden under 26F.

Gotta clarify:

That low low temp was in the back forty, downslope from where the K-Os were.  They didn't get anywhere near 20 F from what I could tell, maybe 27.

Cold enough.  Left the beer outside that night . . .

Brrrrr

[Phil]

Dave from So-Cal,

Are you sure your thermometer was working right?  I would have guessed you got colder than 28 degrees last winter, but who knows?  

BTW, about two years ago I bought ten Taylor Maximum/Minimum thermometers (for putting around the nursery).  They were the desirable, more heavy duty ones.  I noted that they showed recordings that were a few degrees different while sitting right next to each other on an afternoon day in the 70's.  So, I called Taylor and was told by one of their technicians that this product has a potential 1 to 3% error, either too high or low.  I don't know what you'd use for calibration, but I'm sure there is an expensive, more accurate thermometer out there.

Phil

[palmdudetx]

Phil and everyone else who had comments regarding the Kentiopsis Oliviformis, thanks for the info. This will definitely be one that I will try here in coastal Texas area. Always looking for one that has this much beauty.

So that it slows down my jealousy of what can be grown in south Florida.Thanks again for the info.

Marvin

[DoomsDave]

(Phil @ Jan. 22 2008,07:46)

QUOTE

Dave from So-Cal,

Are you sure your thermometer was working right?  I would have guessed you got colder than 28 degrees last winter, but who knows?  

BTW, about two years ago I bought ten Taylor Maximum/Minimum thermometers (for putting around the nursery).  They were the desirable, more heavy duty ones.  I noted that they showed recordings that were a few degrees different while sitting right next to each other on an afternoon day in the 70's.  So, I called Taylor and was told by one of their technicians that this product has a potential 1 to 3% error, either too high or low.  I don't know what you'd use for calibration, but I'm sure there is an expensive, more accurate thermometer out there.

Phil

Sigh.

There's always something more accurate. Or more expensive.  Or both.  Or less.  I just don't know.

BUT!

In the words of the Justice from the Supreme Court talking about obscenity (I thought this works well here!) I know COLD when I see it.

Everything you say might be true.

Hmm.  Maybe bring the therms down to your place for a test?

I need some palms, too . . . .

That said, I know it gow LOW, to freeze those Phoenix reclinatas.  That I know.

Hmm.

[palmsrgreat]

Phil,

Get a bucket of ice and add a little water until it is slushy. Then place all your thermometers in the ice bath and wait a few mintues. Naturally, they should all read 32F and you would be able to see if which ones are out of calibration.

On another note, I'm flying back out to sunny San Diego on Feb 1st for Superbowl weekend. I plan on making a trip by the nursery to pack a few things to bring back to Houston. As always, I'll be bringing my golf travel bag to load up.

As for the K.oliviformis. My 5 gallon has seen lows in the high 20's and no problems at all. It probably has even been staying on the wet side, which is not my intention. I've brought it into the garage this past week as we've been getting pretty low and night and non-stop rain. You recommended this palm to me about 2 years ago and I am very pleased with it thus far.

[PalmGuyWC]

This may not be the right thread for this topic, but there is a huge difference between the climates of Florida and the coastal S.E. USA. Florida can have 85F on one day, and plunge down to 27F the next night. This has to be a huge shock for tropical palms.

In Calif. our nights are much cooler, summer and winter, and the palms grow much slower.  I watched the temps. slowly fall this past Fall, each night going down another half or full degree as fall approached. By the time I had my first frost the growth had come to almost a complete stop. Palms in Calif. are "harder" grown than in Florida and I think this enables them to take lower temps. than in Florida.

Regarding Kentiopsis oliviformis, it should be the perfect palm for the coastal areas of S. Calif. It's a beautiful palm and it has a much heavier texture than arcontophoenix and will stand up to wind better. That's the one thing I dislike about arcontophoenix, they often look wind tattered.

There are some beautiful speimans of Kentiopsis growing in protected areas at Fairchild Gardens, and and Rick Litener has a beautiful, blooming speciman growing in full sun in Ft. Lauderdale. I can remember when Kentiopsis was considered highly endangered, but there must be enough in cultivation now that are seeding so they should become much more plentifull. It seems to be a palm for both S. Fla. and S. Calif. We might even be able to grow it in the bananna belts of the SF Bay Area.

Dick

[mppalms]

It would be interesting to hear how this palm puts up with day after day of chilly wet weather.  We're on our third day in a row of not cracking 50 deg. F during the day.  Not much below 40, if at all, as a minimum, but no sun, no heat, and lots of cold rain.

Some palms are struggling more this year than last.  I noticed brown spots and brown tipping on some leaves of Dypsis baronii when it hasn't blinked in the past.  It even took our freeze last year with minimal protection and no damage.  But, last winter was dry.

Even Chamaedorea plumosa has some leaflet yellowing, probably from the cold rain.  Normally, I don't mind our winters, but I just got back from three weeks in Cambodia and Taiwan, and it's quite a shock.

Jason

[PalmGuyWC]

Jason,

It's has been cold, drippy and wet here for days. My low has been 39 and the high around 45 but mostly around 41F, the longest period I can ever remember of almost a straight line on temps, day and night. Prepare yourself for another week of this, and maybe heavy rain tomorrow. Southern Calif. is getting slammed today, and we get it tomorrow as the next low moves in.  It's a big wet one and another behind that.

All things considered, this is better than clear cold nights with frost. We are going through a critical period right now, and soon we should be getting a little more warmth from the sun. As misserable as it is, I'll take the cloud cover and rain to the alternative.

Dick

[mppalms]

Dick,

I guess I agree on the frost, but I was pretty happy with the December pattern of days near 60 and nights around 35-40 with no rain.  Nothing seemed unhappy with that.  I think a few plants I thought could take plenty of winter rain are now drowning in it.  It would be nice if it just poured and got it over with, but I suspect we're in for more rain with days near 50 and nights around 40.  That's a tough combination even without frost.

Looking a bit more closely at the Dypsis baronii, it may not be wet weather damage after all.  Looks like I picked up some mealies from somewhere.  They were on a couple of other palms, too.  Dypsis decipiens is getting a good test of how much water it can take with the cold; so far, so good.  All the Ceroxylons and Butia look good, too.

Jason

[PalmGuyWC]

Jason,

When things look really crappy for me, weather wise or other wise, I say to myself "this too will pass," and it usually does, and usually for the better. (Except for last winter).

Actually, for N. Calif. this has not been a bad winter, somewhat normal, few extreams of temps, but it does seem to have been cooler than normal over all. Lets face it, winters in N. Calif. are crappy, but go on the east side of the Sierras, and that's real winter........all the way to the east coast. (We don't count Texas).

Dick

[mppalms]

Dick,

Very true.  Do you know anyone around the bay area who has tried K. oliviformis?  I'm trying three small Cyphophoenix elegans, and so far, they are doing great despite the cooler-than-usual winter and bursts of heavy rain.

Jason