Newport Beach Cocunut

[elHoagie]

(happ @ Dec. 15 2007,21:18)

QUOTE

Jack, aren't you growing a coco palm?  

Happ,

I'm finally getting around to posting a picture that I took on Dec 16.  The Cocos grew well over the summer, producing 3 new leaves and adding a lot of girth at the base.  So far there's no spotting on the leaves, and it still looks as good as it did at the end of the summer.  The leaves are about 2m (6ft) long, and the base is probably 8-10cm (3-4in).

I should mention that I purchased the palm in February, left it unprotected in a pot outdoors, then planted it in April.

[surgeon83]

(ruskinPalms @ Dec. 19 2007,00:26)

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So what makes this coconut tick? Is it all of the asphalt and concrete surrounding it that absorbs heat from the sun and radiates the heat back out at night and at cooler times? Is it that the asphalt and concrete prevents cold rain from getting to the roots? Is the fill under that building actually sand? Is the coconut on the south side of the building? Is there a nuclear reactor slowly humming away under that building?

Bill, if you look at where the sun and shadows are in the pictures, you can tell its on the south side of the building (provided that the picture was taken at approximately noon in December).  It is right next to the side of a white concrete building- the white color allows heat to be reflected back upon the palm to heat it up during the day, and the concrete continues to radiate small amounts of heat at night.  Plus it is literally right across the street from the water (a marina or bay of some sort) which obviously moderates winter lows.  

I don't think there is anything to protect the roots (such as asphault poured over it) and I can't tell if its planted in sand because of the ground cover.  The sidewalk is not asphault, but the road is (you can make sure by looking at the pictures).

How's yours doing?  I"m hoping to get one to thrive in St. Pete next year.

[bubba]

With all due respect to the New Port Beach Coconut,which is prima facie evidence that Coconut palms can be grown in certain microclimates in California,your plaque needs to contain an Addendum that excepts the Port Elizabeth,SA. coconuts together with the Kew Gardens coconut given the fact your legend fails to exclude indoor variety.This certainly should not dust the excitement of California coconut growing,which is great and will probably produce long term coconuts at even higher latitudes due to your hard work and enthusiasm.

[elHoagie]

(bubba @ Dec. 21 2007,04:11)

QUOTE

With all due respect to the New Port Beach Coconut,which is prima facie evidence that Coconut palms can be grown in certain microclimates in California,your plaque needs to contain an Addendum that excepts the Port Elizabeth,SA. coconuts together with the Kew Gardens coconut given the fact your legend fails to exclude indoor variety.This certainly should not dust the excitement of California coconut growing,which is great and will probably produce long term coconuts at even higher latitudes due to your hard work and enthusiasm.

Bubba - they might need to change the plaque to read "outdoor" given the Kew Coconut, but the plaque says "northernmost", so the Port Elizabeth Coconut is not a problem...

[bubba]

Perhaps a footnote?

[happ]

(bubba @ Dec. 21 2007,08:44)

QUOTE

Perhaps a footnote?

If you disagree, show me your coconuts and not that poor guy down in Newport Beach

These are your words bubba, as your presented your cogent arguments that California is much too cold [i.e. impossible to be USDA 11] to grow coconut palms.

Time for a retraction  ???

[bubba]

I have always stated that coconuts were possible in California and I think it is great you are pursuing it with the ardor that you are.That stated,however,there appear to be regions (South Africa/Port Elizabeth) together with other areas such as Greece that may or do give you a run for your money from a Latitude point of view.I find it truly amazing that you in California are growing any coconuts in what appears to be a Mediteranean climate.Even if they appear stunted based upon the temperatures I am reviewing it is incredible.

As to the issue of retraction,I think that is not necessary because the comments you have extracted took place in our discussion about Zone 11.I still take the position that this is ridiculous,arbitrary and does not define the parameters of identifying areas where tropical palms thrive.I restate "thrive"for the sake of emphasis.The fact that Fairchild is 10B and numerous locations in Florida would rate 10A and fully mature 60 foot coconuts grow from seed should be direct evidence that the USDA system is inaccurate. I do not mean to hurt your feelings but the truth is the truth.

[happ]

Thanks for your humble pie response. Perhaps you can cite where you have

always stated that coconuts were possible in California

On the contrary, you devoted a thread where you challenged the USDA designation of zone 11 in California based on a book written 50 years ago :

"Desmond Muirhead in his book"Palms" states that there are really no frost-free areas in California"

Remember writing this bubba

"Although "urban myths"may detail certain hot spots that defy this analysis,and may allow for a coconut palm, I do not believe these areas are large enough to qualify for a Zone 11 designation"

The science of climatology is based on factual measurable data rather than a quote from a long deceased landscape architect to lend whatever credibility you can salvage to support your uniformed opinion.  

Quoting you one more time and the last time, I might add:

the proof is in the palms. The palms do not lie.

[happ]

Quoting you one more time and the last time, I might add:

the proof is in the palms. The palms do not lie.

[bubba]

To clarify my position,I do believe small areas(microclimates)exist in California qualify for USDA criteria for Zone 11 inclusion.My problem is that the criteria the USDA has chosen for this desigination does not comport with it's stated goal of identifying the area's where the most temperature sensitive variety's of tropical foliage can be grown.You have stated directly that California could never duplicate Fairchild,which is 10B by the USDA criteria.Do you not see the issue presented with your own statement juxtaposed against this innacurate criteria?It is highly interesting to me that a circa 1940 map posted on this Board and apparently adopting USDA criteria at that time(Koeppen) came much closer to identifying the reality of tropical vegetation that "thrives"versus "barely survives".Once again, this is not a knock on on California,the Newport Beach coconut or all of the outstanding efforts undertaken by Californians to test the limits. I laud and enthusiasticly support your efforts and am truly amazed at your success given the high heat requirements of tropical vegetation.

Happ,I think you view my comments as malicious and they are not.I tend towards a little Saturnalian dark humor.You may want to listen to a former comic/talk show guy in LA.(Phil Hendrie) to get a better idea of where I am coming from. And yes I am jealous because you guys did steal him from South Florida.Consider my board persona that of an Au jeaux provacateur(sp?). Please add humor(albeit a little dark in nature) to my comments.I will try to be a kinder,gentler Alligator.Iam truly sorry if I have offended you or any others and a little jocular poke is unfotunately part of my nature.Merry Christmas and Peace to all!

[garrin]

There are a couple of stunted coconuts with some trunking in the far north of New Zealand near 35 deg S latitude which actually sprouted on their own from the many coconuts from farther north which drift south with the ocean currents.  These might be the southernmost coconuts in the world.  Anyone know of any other southern hemisphere contenders?

[BobSDCA]

Just some additional notes and observations:

I have been keeping track of the Newport Coconut since I was told about it when I lived in Huntington Beach in 1996.  I can tell you that looking at the photos now, it is a much nicer palm.  It has continued to trunk quite nicely over the past few years!  I realize that comparing it to coconuts from more tropical climates is no contest, but it is nice to have a few stunted coconuts around southern California for the novelty.  We certainly can’t have coconuts as standard landscape plants in California – they just require too much care and need that perfect microclimate.

My coconut is two years old now.  I am afraid to show a photo of it for the rails of laughter that would come from Florida and Hawaii.  Let’s just say it looks a lot like the one that Tyrone has posted – not even as nice as Jacks!  I used the same black rock and reflected wall treatment that others have suggested.  I also did a complete soil replacement using a lot of planting mix and sand.  After last January’s low of 31F at my house, a locust infestation that ate many frond tips, and lack of attention because of my studies and fieldwork – I am surprised the palm is still alive.  I usually have to fertilize many of my tropical plants well through the winter, and the coconut is no exception.  It looks horrible by spring if I don’t fertilize it every two weeks!

Regarding the climate issue, Bubba is correct about one thing – the USDA system is a poorly designed.  For one thing,  this system uses total data from a ten year span instead of the standard 20 years for most climate research.  I agree that the Koppen Climate Classification (Wiki Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_c...classification) is a much more accurate system for climate studies, though the Sunset microclimate system is better for identifying horticultural climate classification within our region.  Using the Koppen Classification, much of south Florida is considered Tropical (with average monthly temps throughout the year at 64.4F, or higher).  Coastal southern California is in the Temperate Mediterranean Climate with a designation of (Csa) climate being 71.6F or higher during the warmest month.  Though the examples given of Los Angeles, Madrid, and Split having the same climate is absurd for horticultural purposes.  Madrid and Split are much colder in the winter than L.A., and they have more severe freezing events.

Using both climate and horticultural systems is helpful in determining what we can grow.  To summarize – growing true tropicals and a few ultra tropicals is much easier in Miami that has a Tropical Climate compared with Los Angeles’ Mediterranean Climate that does best growing most subtropicals and a few tropicals.  I consider coconuts true tropicals.  I still hesitate to use USDA zone 11 designations for California because this zone has been used as the demarcation of tropical climates in the past.  

I am fairly conservative in my climactic determinations.  Over the past eight years, my lowest temperature average is 36F.  Using the USDA system that would place my climate in a low 10b classification.  However, there is no way my temperatures in winter can compare with more coastal 10b locations that are usually three degrees warmer at night, and didn't even freeze last year!

[happ]

Welcome to Palmtalk Bob    how about a photo of your coconut palm?

However, there is no way my temperatures in winter can compare with more coastal 10b locations that are usually three degrees warmer at night, and didn't even freeze last year!

You can add another 3 degrees in the foothills & no frost.  We know what we experience & why I urge gardeners to use thermometers [journal info

The designation of a climate for gardeners cannot be limited to any one element.  Example:

So what's wrong with plant hardiness zones?

Well, just think about this: The average minimum temperature is not the only factor in figuring out whether a plant will survive in your garden. Soil types, rainfall, daytime temperatures, day length, wind, humidity and heat also play their roles. For example, although both Austin, Texas and Portland, Oregon are in the same zone (8), the local climates are dramatically different. Even within a city, a street, or a spot protected by a warm wall in your own garden, there may be microclimates that affect how plants grow. The zones are a good starting point, but you still need to determine for yourself what will and won't work in your garden.

http://www.backyardgardener.com/zone/index.html#what

I think the reaction by some is because too much emphasis is placed on where the zones are located [rather than just the issue of temperature/frost probability.  To my knowledge the USDA doesn't prescribe what can be grown in each zone but merely the climatological data.  NWS provides records  w/ very little recognition to agriculture other than to identify frost.

Lowest minimum temperature this month has been 44F/6.6c [12 degrees above freezing during a month of cold mornings.  On another thread a member from Florida mentioned how she looks forward to winter as it kills off overgrown brugmansia/ginger.  I have never experienced such a thing.  Her location is at least 5 degrees latitude lower than mine [in an ordinarily near tropical climate.  

I don't think we can underestimate the damage of frost to palm trees but it is certainly not the only concern.

BTW it isn't a coincidence that a nucifera is growing in Newport Beach  ::

[DoomsDave]

Surge!

I missed you!

Oh well, give me a buzz on the phone when you get out here again, or I might hook up with you in St. Pete, or in Miami, or somewhere.

Meantime, gawk at my pix . . . .

dave

[Tyrone]

(BobSDCA @ Dec. 30 2007,10:51)

QUOTE

 Let’s just say it looks a lot like the one that Tyrone has posted – not even as nice as Jacks!

Bob, What pic are you reffering too? The one I just planted, or the one that has some trunk growing near me?

regards

Tyrone

[bubba]

I appreciate Bob's willingness to agree to the poor design of the USDA Zone system together with his agreement that Koeppen/Sunset is better for the identification of appropriate climate/horticultural classification's.Happ's statement that "the USDA doesn't prescribe what can be grown but merely climalogical data" is inaccurate.In the United States Department of Agriculture's(jurisdiction over plant's?)explanation of purpose for Zones,it states"All agriculturist's,environmentalists,horticultualists and home gardener's have one all abiding question about any plant they wish to introduce into their growing spaces.Will it flourish?"Indeed,the USDA provides Indicator Plant Examples on it's webpage(although only up to zone 10).In further explanation  of it's purpose the USDA states in pertinent part:"The USDA Plant Hardiness Map divides North America into 11 hardiness zones.Zone1 is the coldest;Zone11 is the warmest,a tropical area..."In this regard,the USDA has hung itself on it's own petard by it's choice of criteria.Annual average minimum temperatures do not identify the warmest,most tropical area's in the Continental US.For proof,I ask you to examine the definition of the word "flourish"as artfully chosen by the USDA.

The acceptance of the flaws in the USDA criteria is not tantamount to acceptance of non-existence,indentured servitude or lack of pride for what may be the best climate on earth.However, it is not the most "tropical "climate in the Continental US.Sunset recognizes this in it's Classification 25 for a large part of Continental South Florida.This in no way diminishes the beauty of the Newport Beach Coconut but in fact makes it that much more out of the ordinary.Happy New Year!

[ck_in_fla]

(Jimbean @ Dec. 17 2007,08:08)

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(syersj @ Dec. 16 2007,22:11)

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I wonder where the furthest north Cocos is located in FL, anyone know?  Also curious to the furthest north in TX.  The RGV has a some (at least til the next big freeze), but I seem to remember someone posting they were growing one in Corpus Christi.

Here is an example of one in Deep South Texas from the PSST website.

http://www.raingardens.com/psst/meetings/PSST_Jul06.html

You probably already know this already, but the furthest north a cocos has survived the freezes of the 80's is in Cocoa Beach.  

I know of three mature post '89 cocos in Titusville.  I don't know if there is any growing around New Smyrna Beach, but I would imagine that it would be possible since it looks like temperatures stay warm enough baring any major freezes.

I've seen a few in Ponce Inlet, which is marginally north of New Smyrna Beach.  Though they were still fairly small, they did look like they were growing nicely.

Also, I definitely remember reading that some of the landscaping at the Ocean Center in Daytona Beach included Coconut Palms.  Does anyone know how they have fared?  Perhaps someone who lives over in that area of Florida could post some current pictures.  Since it's been at least 5 years since there has been any weather in that area that would threaten them, those palms should still be there.

There is a big freeze forecast for Thursday morning.  I have seen 33F forecast in the Orlando area.  Normally, Daytona Beach is 3 to 5 degrees colder.  It will be interesting to see how accurate these forecast models are.

[Moose]

Probably the most talked about singular palm on Palm Talk hands down. The photos are now gone, so is the palm

The obsession with growing a Coconut in California baffles me.

[GottmitAlex]

45 minutes ago, Moose said:

Probably the most talked about singular palm on Palm Talk hands down. The photos are now gone, so is the palm

The obsession with growing a Coconut in California baffles me.

So are resurrected threads from 11+ years ago ...

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I miss it and ALL the other ones grown in very marginal climates for them that have succumbed to the weather!

John

[Palmsbro]

I didn't know it was dead.

I didn't think that 2014/2015 winter was that bad but there is a palm thread on the other possible causes of death of this palm dating back from 2015 (the thread I mean).

2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I miss it and ALL the other ones grown in very marginal climates for them that have succumbed to the weather!

John

I agree 1000%, John.