Liners

[Kim]

They don't look evil; small, square, and tall, with cute baby palms in them.  So why do they irritate me so?

They are tippy.  If you run a nursery, you have racks or boxes set up for them.  But I don't run a nursery, so they get stuffed in larger pots or between pots to keep them upright.

Then the soil falls out the bottom.  What is the point of the open bottom??

And most annoying, when I go to pot up the palms, no matter now careful I am, all the soil falls off the roots.  I'm not sure there's such a thing as a rootball in a liner.  Waiting until hefty roots are emerging from the bottom of the liner seems to make no difference; carefully slide out the roots and, crumble, plop! the soil falls away from the roots, and they are subject to possible damage during the replanting process.

I went through this yesterday with three plants I was potting up; the two liners had the soil crumble away; the one-gallon held the soil around the root ball like it should.  While I hope the cycad and the D. ambositrae survive after the rough treatment, I am confident the Brahea calcarea will be fine.

Is there a trick to potting up liners?  I hate 'em!!

Note:  The title should read "Liners" not "cLiners".  Unable to edit the topic, sorry!

[bgl]

Kim,

I wouldn't be too concerned about the soil falling off. Just handle them gently and move them up to a larger pot right away, and you won't have any problems storing the liners.

Bo-Göran

[deezpalms]

I often wondered why the liners have all those great big gapping holes at the bottom. It's not like they need that much drainage! However, in an effort to "plug" them up I just put a couple leaves in the bottom and that seems to do just fine. As far as the roots go, it's about 50/50 whether or not the soil will cling to the roots. If I wait long enough the soil seems to cling more but by then the roots have grown half way down the block!!  

[fastfeat]

I assume you're talking about the (Anderson?) tall pots with just the skinny cross on the bottom, no? If so, the trick is to use the tall, square mesh flats (holds 25 pots tightly) that come with them to keep the soil from washing out, mostly. I agree that individual pots are difficult to keep full.

[Jeff Searle]

:laugh:  :laugh: , sorry Kim, but between your title and your fustration, it sort of made me laugh. Mainly because I had the same problems too!! In the past, I would put small rocks to cover up the holes. But, in all honesty, I really use very few of these. Their good to grow cycads in, and it helps some just to leave the plants in the pots longer so they have a better root system when you do pull them out finally. Sorry, next time I'll try to control my laughing.

Jeff

[jdapalms]

A few pieces of foam peanuts at the bottom will keep the soil in place. We do this for the tall containers wiith large openings on the bottom.

[mike in kurtistown]

I'm a non-believer where tall, skinny pots (liners) are concerned. Some people think they have to use them for Copernicias, and then they can't explain why the plants die left and right. I keep Copernicias in wide 3-gal or 5-gal for years and rarely ever lose one. In either kind of pot, the roots go straight to the bottom and then start looping around the circumference. In the wide pots, they have some room to spread out. There may be some species with vertical, narrow root systems that would benefit, but I haven't identified them yet.

Mike

[MattyB]

At least the drainage is good with all the large openings at the bottom.  

Kim, I usually unpot the liners while submerged in a bucket of water.  This essentially bare roots them but because it's done in zero gravity then there's no "plop" of the soil to break roots off.

[DoomsDave]

KIm:

Liners like that are for the convenience of growers.

As for disturbing the roots, I wouldnt' worry.  Take good care of your little babies and they'll be fine.

I've raised thousands of bare-root plants, with relatively few casualties.  Keep them moist and out of the hot sun and wind until they root in.

Most palms aren't that fussy about roots.  A big exception is Dictyocaryum, but it won't grow in So-Cal that I know of.

[Phil]

Kim,

I have probably used a hundred thousand of these band containers.  They have their plus and minus points.  The reason they are so popular among growers is that one can have 25 plants in one flat and the bands produce a palm equivalent to a one gallon container.  This takes less than a quarter the table space compared to one gallon containers.  Removal of an intact rootball depends on the development of roots in the bottom of the band.  This typically takes the grower a year or two to achieve.  But, when too much time passes, the roots go through the flats that hold the the 25 band containers.  The flats have small mesh holes and the roots can tangle up with the grid bottom of the flat.  Also, when repotting from a band, one must go into a deeper container.  Unfortunately, bands are taller than most 2 gallon pots, so you must flare the roots a bit for the palm to fit into a 2 gallon.  If this is not possible, it only leaves a five gallon pot or citrus pot being deeep enough into which one can tranplant a band.  The manufacturer of the bands is Anderson Dye in Portland, Oregon.  I think it's still run by the elderly woman who started the company.  If you call them, you'll probably talk directly to her.  

In summary, they are space efficient and affordable.  But, they have weaknesses.  I'd love it if someone made a better moustrap.

Phil

[RadPalms]

This is what I used for this problem.....I drink alot of coke

Curt

[RadPalms]

This what it looks like when plants are in them

[DoomsDave]

Rad!

Dude!

That's like rad, dude!

That's also A LOT of soda . . . . .

dave

[Tad]

nothing as cool as soda pop boxes but the 4x4 mesh works pretty good to keep the tall skinnys up.

we also use 4 tall skinnys inside a 3 gallon to geminate bizmarcks

[Scott]

I remember my first experience with them - thinking they were kinda cool - until I got them home. Now I try to buy up to a 5 gallon. much more manageable

[fastfeat]

(Kim @ Nov. 12 2007,11:08)

QUOTE

They are tippy.  

Note:  The title should read "Liners" not "cLiners".

I thought "cLiners" was short for "RecLiners" or "DecLiners" since they always fall over sans support...

[mppalms]

These seem to be good for young Ceroxylon species, which I learned have tiny root systems..

Jason

[The Germinator]

Just go down to the local dairy and snag some Milk crates thats what everyone else does.

Tell them you'll bring them back when your done.

The Coke Flats look good if you need spacing.

[metalfan]

Those liners are a pain, but they are not as bad as the "Palm Cones" I have received some mailorder plants in in the past. The cones won't sit up no matter what because they are curved on the bottom. You would need a specially made holder. I end up just transplanting everything immediately.

[fastfeat]

(The Germinator @ Nov. 14 2007,03:11)

QUOTE

Just go down to the local dairy and snag some Milk crates thats what everyone else does.

Tell them you'll bring them back when your done.

The Coke Flats look good if you need spacing.

That's the local 7-11 for those of us in more urban areas...

[PalmGuyWC]

I hate liners too, but I can understand why nurserymen use them to save space. If in liners, I usually try to select plants that are in need of repotting anyway. Unfortunately there are usually two or three of the main roots growing out and around the X in the bottom of the liners and the plants won't slide out, and I hate to disturb roots. I usually end up cutting the liners away with a cut down the side and then cut away the X at the bottom. In spite of being very carefull, usually half the soil falls away.

Like Phil says, they don't fit well into 2 gal pots, so I usually overpot them in a good draining mixture into 5 gal pots. I did this with some overgrown Parajubaeas in liners this summer and have gotten excellent results. The plants never missed a beat and are now firmly rooted in the larger pots, and they will have plenty of room to grow next summer. I'll keep them on the dry side this winter under shelter with as much low angle winter sun as I can give them.

In the past, I've used cut squares of fine plastic screen in the bottom of liners and this keeps most of the large roots inside, but they tend to coil in the bottom. In most cases, I've found it's better to over pot than under pot, but a well draining mixture is required and you have to be carefull not to overwater.

Dick

[Phil]

A couple of points:

Anderson Company did come up with a large "band" container.  I don't know the dimensions, but it's about 50% or more wider at the top than the typical 3x3x9 band.  But, the bottom still has that awful "X" to ineffectively hold in the soil.  Pictured above are what we in California call "Tree Pots".  At first, I was quite excited about this pot.  But, many times I found it difficult to remove the rot ball intact.  And, they have to be supported.  Milk cartons work well and can be purchased "used" at dairies.  I must repeat myself: If you are so inclined, design and produce a better container for seedlings.  These discussions show that not all people are happy with what's out there.  Design it to be space efficient, easy for rootball removal, and tall enough for good growth.  You never know, perhaps you'll be supplying all of us in the future.

Phil

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I've not had the problems people are talking about...  But then again, I tend to let things get a little bit more rootbound and get them good and wet before I transplant or step them up!  :cool:

Edit: from spouts I pot into "Short Ones" found here : http://www.stuewe.com/products/minitreepots.html  For larger and faster plants I use a Tall one or Citrus Tube...

[Pivi]

Will, i could only wish i can find something like this in Croatia...  

ps. tpot4 excellent for me... or tpot3 http://www.stuewe.com/images/treepots_lg.jpg

but nothing like this in croatia...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I'm sure they will ship worldwide...  For a price.  ???

[Pivi]

no way i would do that...

shipping, customs, tax...

It would end up very expensive for 200 pieces...

Here in croatia i can buy these, the biggest one is 2 gallons

19 x 19 x 25cm high

that is 7.5 x 7.5 x 10 inches

each one is about $0.95

[Kris]

Can anybody be little eleborate on the discussion ?

are we talking about the drain holes or the support fastners of the plastic pots ?

thanks & love,

Kris  

[PalmGuyWC]

To be quite honest......

I pick up most of my plastic pots at the city dump, or alongside the road where a landscaper has dumped all of his plastic pots. Usually the spring or summer is best when new landscapes are being put in. I usually make about 12 truck loads to the dump during the year, and usually at last a couple of those trips I will find piles of nice plastic containers, from 1 gal to 15 gal. Seems like I use 2 gal. pots the most and they are the hardest to find.

Of course you are not supposed to take them from the dump, but I've found a $5 bill placed into the hand of the guy watching over the dump will allow me all the pots I need. What's 5 bucks when one nice 15gal could eaisly cost that much? I've often wondered why these containers are not saved or at least recycled. They just get crushed up and burried with all the other garbage at the dump.

Dick

[Kim]

Well, it's nice to know I'm not alone in disparaging these liners.  I am referring to those black plastic approx. 2" x 2" square at the top, maybe 10" deep -- as several have noted, too deep to easily transplant to a 1-gallon pot (so annyoing!), tapering downward and with the + at the bottom (with gaping holes!).  My plants were potted up to citrus containers, which seems huge for the little seedlings, but the extra room was needed for the long roots.  I put the cycad in a very large, squat clay pot, I hope that wasn't a mistake (Lepidozamia peroffskyana).

I can appreciate the grower's need to conserve space, but I am not converting my small garden and patio to Coke or milk box paradise anytime soon.  ???  Just not my style.. ::

Enough of you have given suggestions for how to handle them (a la MattyB) and reassurances about the bare roots (thanks Bo and Dave) for me to transplant next time with more confidence.  But someone should really take up Phil's challenge to design a better container!

[Neofolis]

I use Anderson liners for germinating and never have any problem with the medium falling out of the pot and I use a very open medium.  I just make sure the bottom inch or so is very compressed, before filling further.  I do, however, have everything fall off when I pot, but this has never proven to be a problem.  I re-pot into very tall 3L pots (approx. 1 US Gallon), which are far taller than the liners.  I also don't have a problem with tipping.  Most of the liners are kept inside a big plastic container which holds five pots wide fairly rigidly, but when I take them out of the container, some months after germination they seem to stand up OK on my staging.

[DoomsDave]

Kim!

I wouldn't worry, dear.

With your love and attention to detail, the babies in the liners will be fine.

Oh, some extra water.  And freedom from fires, which I know you'll manage.

So don't worry.

And, in the Adam-Smithian sense, so you lose a liner or two?  Money-wise, well, whatever.  You can get others.

Of course AS doesn't take pride into consideration, but, palms lend themselves to pride, assuming you choose well, which I know you'll do.

dave