Diagnosing Triangle Palm problems

[Justin]

I have 7 triangle palms in my front yard - each have about 5 feet of trunk and get approximately the same amount of water, fertilizer, etc.  Six are doing well, and three are doing outstanding (keeping their fronds green until the entire frond falls off, like a self-cleaning palm).  So the six good ones have about 4-6 rows of fronds.

One, however, is down to about 2 rows.  One by one, the lower fronds are turning brown and shriveling up.  The plant is still shooting new fronds, which are healthy, but overall the palm is declining.

Anyone seen this before?  Does this sound like a water problem?  A nutrient problem?  Something else?

[Tad]

is that one planted a little too deep, it does not have to be much, I lost about 500 after a tractor driver covered too much trunk by rolling over them with a lilliston cultivater. I didnt notice it until the next spring and it was toooo late

[MattyB]

Funny that Tad mentions a deep planting because I had a King palm die from having a little too much soil piled up around it.  It was rotting out the plumbing and even though the plant was getting plenty of water, it never made it up to the leaves and the symptoms showed up as if it was drying out.  So the lower leaves just kept drying up until finally it just withered away from lack of water uptake.  I'd recommend doing a massive fungicide soil drench and then letting it dry out real good.  It's not like a triangle palm is gonna suffer from lack of water.  This will allow the fungicide to stick around and do it's magic.  Good luck.

[Tad]

ask richard travis he knows how to fix a triangle palm, he is a triangle palm EXPERT if I ever did hear of one:)

[Justin]

Not buried.  That would have been an easy fix, unfortunately.

[Justin]

Any other suggestions out there?

Would a picture help?

[freekypalmguy]

Too much water. That started the decline in mine then the freeze 07 finished her off

[chris.oz]

Triangles dont like a lot of water and based  my observations of specimens in equatorial regions tend to do relatively poorly compared with those in subtropical seasonally dry areas.  They dont like water on the trunk and leaves,  but obviously like access to deep water in the soil.

Check out the habitat photos.  These palms naturally prosper on sloping ground.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Dypsis/decaryi03.jpg

However, in your case,  maybe its just a case of not all palms planted at the same time can be expected to grow equally as well. Maybe something locally in the soil,  the initial root growth,  fungal attack the root development zone on  specific palms, relative differences in amount of shade etc  can cause some to prosper while others nearby do not.  

This has been observed many times in groups of seemingly identical plants being planted at the same time in seemingly identical conditions.

[DoomsDave]

Justin:

Post a pic.

I've killed far too many triangles at my place . . . .

If nothing else, misery will love a little company.

dave

[Davidl]

Chris said everything I wanted to say so I will only say you might try a different fertilizer with minors on that one. I have no idea if your soil is lacking magnesuim or potasium or other but if it is you might start there. Here in south central fl all we have is nitrogen in our soil and of course sand. You could also do a soil test it cant hurt.

[Justin]

Here are some photos.  First, the group (left being south and right being north):

[Justin]

Triangle #1 (southernmost)

[Justin]

Triangle #2.  This is the one that I am worried about.  As you can see, it gets good sun, is on a slope, and is not buried too deep.  A real puzzler...

[Justin]

Triangle #3.  This one is a little sparse, but it was just transplanted last year, and it is flowering, so I'm not too concerned.

[Justin]

Triangle #4.  This one is doing great.

[Justin]

Triangle #5.  Also doing well, but I need to be diligent about keeping the Aptenia away from the trunk - the tree starts to suffer when that happens.

[Justin]

Triangle #6.  Also doing great.

[Justin]

Triangle #7.  Doing very well - just not as well as #4 and #6.

[Justin]

So, after seeing the photos, does this give anyone any ideas on what I could/should do with #2?

Again, thanks in advance.

[DoomsDave]

First let me say, I'm as green as your aptenia with envy.

Even No. 2 looks HOT compared to mine.  

That said, I'd be worried about what sounds like decline, too.

I note that the trunk is much skinner near the crownshaft than the others, though some of the phat ones are showing that shape.

The only thing I can think of is that while triangles don't like too much water, they still need some.  Perhaps No. 2 is getting less than its hermaphroditic siblings?

Why not monitor and see?

I'm curious to know, because it might help me with mine.

dave

[Neel]

I noticed this with mine. Some of the spears look a little deformed at the top before they open. Is this even a concern or has anyone seen this?

[Neel]

another view...

[chris.oz]

Several thoughts ,

Councils sometimes spray roadside verges with herbicide.

There are signs that the palms grew well until about the same time,  then suffered some setback.

Water , fert , planting etc

The newly planted palm shows signs of boron deficiency.  I dont think theo others do so it should improve with time.

Toxic runoff from the roads. When it rains hydrocarbons from the road will runoff into the gutter, or in your case the soil.

Maybe maybe a factor

CHRIS

[TimHopper]

Justin, NICE PLACE. How long have they been planted? They look like they are still trying to overcome transplant shock. It can take 2-3 years to grow enough roots to make those trees happy. Do you have access to a moiture meter with a probe to check the root zone. Too much water or too little water can cause the same symptoms.  Tim

[Gbarce]

Though your problem palm is not doing as great as the others it does look healthy.

Just one theory-- is there irrigation or sewer piping  underground near where the palms are planted?  In our house we planted some betel nut palms to cover our perimeter wall and there is a canal/drainage under the sidelwalk.  They are growing exceedingly well.  They are fat, robust and very fast growing compared to our other betel nut palms inside the property which we we actually water and take care of.  I think its because thir roots have penetrated into the underground drainage walls and have a constant supply of water and nutrients.

I am guessing that your great growing palms may have tapped into some something undergroun and that one palm may have not yet.

Just a theory.

[Jose]

Hate to see you having problems with your palms. They almost look like Manganese deficiency or lack of something the palms need. If you can take one of your fronds and a small sample of soil to your local Dept of Agriculture they will tell you. Or if thats a problem your local college Horticulture Dept they will be more than happy to help. This is what I use in Florida when everything else fails. Good luck.

[PostmanSeb]

Justin,  Looks to me like you are over pruning your palms for one.  On some of your palms I could only count four or five leaves, and I see on the ground alot of "Green Leaves".  The number 1 problem with the decline of health on a palm is over pruning, they just can't photosynthesize enough food to maintain themselves.  Good luck.

Bruce

[Phil]

Justin,

I went to your profile and found that you live in Vista, CA.  So, your weather should be ok for this species providing you didn't get too bad of a winter freeze this last Winter.  

A few observations:

1.  These plants have 3 to 5 feet of trunk.  That (in your area) typically takes 8 to 10 years or more.  So, I'd like to know the history of the plants.  When did you buy them?  How much trunk did they have?  What size root ball did they have?  I've seen dug Triangles slowly go down hill many times.

2.  If they've been grown from juvenile plants by you and developed this much trunk, you must ask what you changed in your culture or did you do something different and possibly deleterious.  Several have tapered trunks below the crown.  This is typical of something drastically changing or from digging a specimen with trunk.  The shock makes the trunk taper.  

3.  It is true that Triangles don't like a lot of water.  Your photos show very dry soil.  I'd dig a hole away from the plant  (? 3 feet) and see how wet the soil is down below, perhaps 18 inches down.  If you see big roots, dodge them.  This will tell you what the roots are seeing.  I'm suspicious that perhaps they are underwatered, but can't be sure.

Post a response and then I can comment more on these plants.

Phil

[Justin]

Several of you asked about the plants' histories.

Originally, seven were planted at the same time, in the spring of 2001.  Here is a photo from October 2001 showing them then (second one shows just #1 (right) through #4 (left)):

Five of them were planted from 30" boxes, and two of them (#6 for sure and I think also #5) were planted from 24" boxes.  They all did fine for several years.

Then, in 2005-06 #1 and #3 went downhill and died, so I replaced them last spring, again from 30" boxes.  This is why #1 and #3 look a little different from the rest, with sparser crowns that narrow near the top - I think they were not especially happy in their boxes.  They both look better now, though, and I hope it will continue.

As you can see, they're all on the same slope.  #6 and #7 get more water, as they are on a different irrigation zone that includes other plants with higher water needs.  That isn't too much of a problem, however, as the soil over there (for whatever reason) drains much better.  The soil for #1-#5 is DG, but it could probably use a little more D, if you know what I mean.

I rarely if ever cut off green leaves - yesterday I pruned for the first time in over a year so the photos would turn out better, and I was careful to cut green off of only the palms doing well.

There are no sewer pipes or anything similar near these palms.

Thanks for all the tips so far - this is very helpful.

[Phil]

Justin,

I will assume that they were not originally grown in the ground, dug, and put into boxes.  The only nursery I know of that did this was Evergreen in Del Mar, and a lot of these slowly went downhill.

Assuming that they were never dug, I'll bet you're underwatering.  Something is wrong.  You should have healthy beautiful plants.  The slope makes for water runoff and perhaps water just isn't getting to the roots.  Also, I've seen chronic underwatering with people using drip irrigation where only one spot gets watered..  I'd dig the exploratory hole and check the soil moisture.  The penciling in on several of them means something's not right.

Phil

[Davo75]

I have 3 river palms they seem to be dying leaves have black spots and shriveled up at the ends even new leaves are doing the same