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Where royals grow, and where they could grow

83 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, PalmTreeDude said:

The only other palm that makes me think of the Royal that has a somewhat wide distribution but in chunks is the Needle Palm, I guess you could throw a few palms from the Keys and extreme South Florida (as in right at the bottom of the state) in there as well. 

Those I can make sense of.  The needle palm perhaps was more wide spread during the age of large mammals.  The species in southern Florida being constrained by their slow growth and soil requirements; distributed from nearby origins.   

The royals on the other hand seem to be telling a different story. 

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2 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Exactly, it is interesting though! It is like, "They grow down here, and then farther North up here, why is the area in between not filled in?" 

some of it I think can be explained by soil and water requirements.  Florida populations seem to like rich soils in tidal swamps. 

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Just now, Jimbean said:

some of it I think can be explained by soil and water requirements.  Florida populations seem to like rich soils in tidal swamps. 

True, definitely a huge factor. Apparently there is a wild one at Everglades Holiday Park, in Southeast Florida. 

20181205_230638.jpg

Screenshot_20181205-230601_Maps.jpg

Screenshot_20181205-230613_Maps.jpg

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I wish I had accurate winter data from before 1835 in Florida.  I would love to see what winter temperatures did every year since the younger dryas event.

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11 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Could you please pinpoint these locations on a map of the Tampa/St. Pete area?

 

Perhaps Florida was more mild during the Little Ice Age.

 

This is a conservative map in St. Pete.

royals.png

 

When you're in St. Pete you see royals like these that are obviously 40+ years old and there are young royals all over the place so it is hard to tell where the boundary is... I'm under the impression not many royals survived in Tampa and I don't know where they are/were other than somewhere in S. Tampa.

 

Your theory about Florida being warmer during the Little Ice Age is intriguing. It is plausible Florida was warmer then, especially if the Gulf Stream was running differently. 

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Does anyone know if they grow further north?

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6 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Does anyone know if they grow further north?

Obviously, they are introduced, but we have them here inland at ~ 28oN:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0112719,-81.9485232,3a,71.8y,207.45h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJq_H5NbY80GnKykCRMuH5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This one has been around since at least Dec. 2007, probably earlier.

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7 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Does anyone know if they grow further north?

Just to be clear, they grow all over Pinellas County. My map above is specifically for pre-80s royals and even that is conservative. 

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I want to know the locations of any survivors of the 1980's freezes on the west coast and any inland outliers, much as what I did on the map where I showed the locations in Brevard county.  Think about the furthest locations and mark them with an 'X.'  I would like to pick Zeeth's brain on this as well.

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18 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

 

This is a conservative map in St. Pete.

royals.png

 

When you're in St. Pete you see royals like these that are obviously 40+ years old and there are young royals all over the place so it is hard to tell where the boundary is... I'm under the impression not many royals survived in Tampa and I don't know where they are/were other than somewhere in S. Tampa.

 

Your theory about Florida being warmer during the Little Ice Age is intriguing. It is plausible Florida was warmer then, especially if the Gulf Stream was running differently. 

I would like to see some Pictures of the St. Pete Royals after the 1983 and 85 freezes

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2 hours ago, Steve the palmreader said:

I would like to see some Pictures of the St. Pete Royals after the 1983 and 85 freezes

I don't have pictures but I was there during the 80's, and all the royals were defoliated totally during those freezes, most came back though.

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4 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

I don't have pictures but I was there during the 80's, and all the royals were defoliated totally during those freezes, most came back though.

Does my map above look accurate to you? I wouldn’t be suprised at all if Clearwater has some older royals too.

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8 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Does my map above look accurate to you? I wouldn’t be suprised at all if Clearwater has some older royals too.

 

8 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Does my map above look accurate to you? I wouldn’t be suprised at all if Clearwater has some older royals too.

Yes, actually very good. And yes Clearwater has some royals now, but not many at all after the freezes in the 80's.

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Can anyone pinpoint the furthest north/east of the survivor royals in that region (like I did in Brevard County)?

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Alright, let me first ask this question then:  Are there any survivor royals in Pasco county?

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3 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Can anyone pinpoint the furthest north/east of the survivor royals in that region (like I did in Brevard County)?

If you are talking the west coast, Clearwater would be the furthest north that any royals survived the freezes of the 80's and not many either, and that is right near the Gulf and downtown, no further inland. 

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2 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Alright, let me first ask this question then:  Are there any survivor royals in Pasco county?

No, none at all that I know of.

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2 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

If you are talking the west coast, Clearwater would be the furthest north that any royals survived the freezes of the 80's and not many either, and that is right near the Gulf and downtown, no further inland. 

Thanks for answering my questions

Any survivors in the Tampa vicinity?

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44 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

 

Yes, actually very good. And yes Clearwater has some royals now, but not many at all after the freezes in the 80's.

I would move the line a bit north in Pinellas county, some royals survived just north of Alt 19 straight east-west across the peninsula.

royals_LI.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Thanks for answering my questions

Any survivors in the Tampa vicinity?

I know Dr. Young had a couple surviving royals in Tampa, he lived south of West Kennedy Blvd near Tampa Bay.

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thanks again

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6 minutes ago, Palmaceae said:

I know Dr. Young had a couple surviving royals in Tampa, he lived south of West Kennedy Blvd near Tampa Bay.

Where at?

Tampa area.png

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Updated.  If anyone knows of any other survivor in a colder area, please let me know.

fl_counties_bg.png

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How far inland in Sarasota county?

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16 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Updated.  If anyone knows of any other survivor in a colder area, please let me know.

fl_counties_bg.png

Any way you can put a key on the map? Like for the colors/pinpoints. It looks awesome though! What about the Southeast FL Royal? 

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23 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Where at?

Tampa area.png

 

DrYoung_LI.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

How far inland in Sarasota county?

18 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

How far inland in Sarasota county?

18 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

 

Only west of 41, inland Sarasota county is pretty cold.

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9 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Updated.  If anyone knows of any other survivor in a colder area, please let me know.

fl_counties_bg.png

I am surprised that there is a circle on lake George most of the citrus groves were killed in the 1983 freeze

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By the way, if you’re doing this to make a new map I think Ficus aurea’s range would be a great indicator of 10a. 

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The furthest Royals that survived all 3 '80s freezes that I personally know of are in Cocoa Beach ; the neighborhood just north of 520 and west of A1A, facing the Banana River. There may be some a bit north of that around Courtenay, at the north end of Tropical Trail. There are old Ficus and Mango trees up there and some taller Royal Palms but not sure if any of the Royals are pre-1989.

I remember seeing some in New Smyrna Beach on the far south end of the barrier island before you got to Bethune Beach. They had survived the '83 and '85 freezes but '89 took them out.

In Orlando there were some Royals around but they were all wiped out in the 12/83 freeze. One survived downtown in a U-shaped courtyard that faces south, an appx. 15 story building. But the '89 freeze got it. Also just south of downtown there was a house on the north side of Lake Holden that had a bunch of tall Royals in the back yard. It was along Michigan Ave. and highly visible. Also a large Ficus elastica. The palms were killed in '83. Seeds must have persisted even after the '85 freeze because between '85 and '89 a forest of young Royals had grown up and were visible from the road. But the '89 cold got it and no seedlings grew back. The Ficus survived and is large again.

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34 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

The furthest Royals that survived all 3 '80s freezes that I personally know of are in Cocoa Beach ; the neighborhood just north of 520 and west of A1A, facing the Banana River. There may be some a bit north of that around Courtenay, at the north end of Tropical Trail. There are old Ficus and Mango trees up there and some taller Royal Palms but not sure if any of the Royals are pre-1989.

I remember seeing some in New Smyrna Beach on the far south end of the barrier island before you got to Bethune Beach. They had survived the '83 and '85 freezes but '89 took them out.

In Orlando there were some Royals around but they were all wiped out in the 12/83 freeze. One survived downtown in a U-shaped courtyard that faces south, an appx. 15 story building. But the '89 freeze got it. Also just south of downtown there was a house on the north side of Lake Holden that had a bunch of tall Royals in the back yard. It was along Michigan Ave. and highly visible. Also a large Ficus elastica. The palms were killed in '83. Seeds must have persisted even after the '85 freeze because between '85 and '89 a forest of young Royals had grown up and were visible from the road. But the '89 cold got it and no seedlings grew back. The Ficus survived and is large again.

Thanks for the input!  I remembered now that you mentioned before that there were some survivors in Cocoa Beach in that neighborhood.  There is at least one really old one by Merritt Island High School.  The trunks on the large royals further north on Merritt Island do not look damaged enough to be pre-'89 and those ficus and mango are hardier than those royals anyway.

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2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

By the way, if you’re doing this to make a new map I think Ficus aurea’s range would be a great indicator of 10a. 

I don't think it would be actually.  Ficus aurea pop up easily and grow fast.  They are now to be found all over Brevard county, even west of I-95 and north of 528.  Even Bursera simaruba is starting to show this pattern.  I posted a picture of this not too long ago.

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23 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Only west of 41, inland Sarasota county is pretty cold.

It's amazing that further southwest into Desoto county is a small wild population. 

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45 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

I don't think it would be actually.  Ficus aurea pop up easily and grow fast.  They are now to be found all over Brevard county, even west of I-95 and north of 528.  Even Bursera simaruba is starting to show this pattern.  I posted a picture of this not too long ago.

Hmm, it seems spot on around here. Granted, that area is considerably wider than where you'd find pre-80s royals, but there aren't may pre-80s royals until you get to the warmer end of 10a.

6 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

map-florida-state-9540373.jpg

One thing to consider about that map... There might have been a handful of pre-80s royals in S. Tampa so let's say the survival rate was 2%. But the difference with St. Petersburg is they become more prolific. Take Roser Park for instance here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7609717,-82.6427844,3a,75y,56.52h,106.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB3Smhf-6llubzQlM02hTtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Pretty sure all of those are pre-80s. Old Northeast has them too, and surely most of S. St. Pete. So clearly the survival rate was much much higher. 

My point is, if you include S. Tampa in a map of 80s royals survivors you'd be including an area where ~98% of royals died.  That may not be ideal. If a 2% survival rate is insufficient though, what's the correct threshold? I don't think there's an easy answer, just something to take into consideration.    

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2 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

One thing to consider about that map... There might have been a handful of pre-80s royals in S. Tampa so let's say the survival rate was 2%. But the difference with St. Petersburg is they become more prolific. Take Roser Park for instance here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7609717,-82.6427844,3a,75y,56.52h,106.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB3Smhf-6llubzQlM02hTtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Pretty sure all of those are pre-80s. Old Northeast has them too, and surely most of S. St. Pete. So clearly the survival rate was much much higher. 

My point is, if you include S. Tampa in a map of 80s royals survivors you'd be including an area where ~98% of royals died.  That may not be ideal. If a 2% survival rate is insufficient though, what's the correct threshold? I don't think there's an easy answer, just something to take into consideration.    

Right now I'm just looking for northern limits. 

I wonder what the survival rate is in the areas where they grow naturally?

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orange: once native and since gone extinct

dark green: wild native populations

light green: successful naturalization

grey: cultivated long term

royal distribution.gif

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The orange coloring should be in Volusia not Lake County. Bartram saw the Royals along the St. John's River near Astor.

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3 minutes ago, Eric in Orlando said:

The orange coloring should be in Volusia not Lake County. Bartram saw the Royals along the St. John's River near Astor.

I'm pretty sure the exact 'official' location was on the Lake county side, although they were probably on both sides, and in many other places I'm sure.

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20 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

orange: once native and since gone extinct

dark green: wild native populations

light green: successful naturalization

grey: cultivated long term

royal distribution.gif

That looks pretty good to me. I know of a handful naturalizing in Pinellas County and Sarasota County, but not like what Zeeth has posted in Manatee.

Also, I'm pretty sure there have to be naturalizing royals in Lee County. I don't know the area well, but royals are their thing there since Edison introduced them. The climate is very favorable too so I'm confident they must be naturalizing there to some degree.

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