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Where royals grow, and where they could grow

83 posts in this topic

These are areas where royals grow naturally now:

 

they already grow here.png

Peace river area.png

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Martin county.png

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http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=604

This is a county map where there are vouched natural specimens.

 

Now below I will post google map images of where I think they could grow based on assumptions about their natural habitat in Florida. 

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Corkscrew swamp.png

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Caloosahatchee river area.png

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Myakka river.png

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Bowlees creek.png

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Phillippi creek.png

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East coast:

St. Lucie.png

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S. Brevard.png

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Trout Creek.png

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Palm Bay.png

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Melbourne.png

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I suppose then this is also possible:

 

Tampa, Sun city.png

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Jim and Red,

I just posted in "Discussing Palms WW" a tidbit on Royals. Bartram drew the first Royal in Fl., which he discovered on the St. Johns River in the 1700's near the Ocala National Forest. Specimens have been documented on Palmtalk all the way to Jacksonville, Fl. I believe they are far more cold tolerant than suggested by literature and should be planted more aggressively. What a beautiful palm!

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6 minutes ago, bubba said:

Jim and Red,

I just posted in "Discussing Palms WW" a tidbit on Royals. Bartram drew the first Royal in Fl., which he discovered on the St. Johns River in the 1700's near the Ocala National Forest. Specimens have been documented on Palmtalk all the way to Jacksonville, Fl. I believe they are far more cold tolerant than suggested by literature and should be planted more aggressively. What a beautiful palm!

I agree 100%!  They grow very well here and most made it through 2010 and 2011 with some leaf burn.  When someone asks for a "9b crownshaft palm", this is the top of the list from my point of view.  There are many threads showing mature royals at more northerly locales, with the first link below showing specimens in Jacksonville:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58085-northern-most-royals-east-of-the-mississippi/

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34769-roystonea-regia-in-flagler-beach-north-florida/&do=findComment&comment=555086

There are several discussions regarding the hardiness of this palm, with an example here:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/49686-florida-royal-palm-and-cuban-royal-palm-how-cold-hardy/

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Correction:  This is actually where they were located in Martin county.  Just south of Port St. Lucie

south of St Lucie.png

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This is where Bartram supposedly first encountered them:

Astor area.png

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these are the furthest locations of long term survivors (planted prior to 1985 and still living) in the interior and east coast of Florida.  Could someone please point out where they are on the west coast of this map.

fl_counties_bg.png

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I also want to add the furthest north vouched populations of Florida royals have been recorded.  The green plus sign is currently observable and the orange historical.

fl_counties_bg.png

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9 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I wasn't aware royals were growing naturally in Desoto County. I managed to pinpoint the spot based on the USF description, they appear to be growing on Island Thirty-Three:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Desoto+County,+FL/@27.0352656,-81.9932017,614m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88dcbdf8f2c9354f:0x934b0192ac25eabf!8m2!3d27.2142078!4d-81.7787021

They're actually on the peninsula a bit west of Island Thirty-Three. I managed to get a good view of one of them on Google Earth in this picture:

5c07f7ba614d2_ScreenShot2018-12-05at11.0

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I've posted this before, but there is a strand of wild Royals in Manatee county on Snead Island. I'm currently writing an article about them, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to finish.

 

IMG_6911.thumb.jpg.74e49cac84f64bafe103a

fullsizeoutput_40e.thumb.jpeg.715a66bfb5

IMG_6914.thumb.jpg.4ba780d0f060ec06e9e0b

IMG_6916.thumb.jpg.bc3ae0efe6f5348231e89

IMG_6918.thumb.jpg.18099bbae5e3b1aae2d39

IMG_6919.thumb.jpg.69ea946ece7c195acadd2

IMG_6922.thumb.jpg.3e60d211cf22b5b3844ae

IMG_0345.thumb.jpg.1cba2d62e9842fe446496

IMG_1239.thumb.jpg.da56cff14fac0b1604d3c

IMG_1238.thumb.jpg.5c91f75f967031078c0f6

IMG_1236.thumb.jpg.849fc4ed3fddb9d85ba9c

IMG_0384.thumb.jpg.4a9c3db4351d85b5939ae

IMG_0369.jpg

IMG_0351.jpg

 

 

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4 hours ago, bubba said:

Jim and Red,

I just posted in "Discussing Palms WW" a tidbit on Royals. Bartram drew the first Royal in Fl., which he discovered on the St. Johns River in the 1700's near the Ocala National Forest. Specimens have been documented on Palmtalk all the way to Jacksonville, Fl. I believe they are far more cold tolerant than suggested by literature and should be planted more aggressively. What a beautiful palm!

I'm skeptical of Bartram's findings. Unless Florida has gotten colder, it is hard to see how a population of royals would be growing so far north of where they're naturally growing now. 

1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

Could someone please point out where they are on the west coast of this map.

@SubTropicRay has commented before that there were a few royals that survived the freezes on the 1980s in South Tampa, but they were removed for development/reasons unknown. Across the bay, St. Petersburg has quite a few old royals so they're definitely viable long term there.

47 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

They're actually on the peninsula a bit west of Island Thirty-Three. I managed to get a good view of one of them on Google Earth in this picture:

:greenthumb:

42 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

I've posted this before, but there is a strand of wild Royals in Manatee county on Snead Island. I'm currently writing an article about them, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to finish.

I've got to make it over there one day. Western Manatee is special, I've been really impressed just seeing them naturalizing in the neighborhoods around downtown Brandenton. :) 

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10 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I'm skeptical of Bartram's findings. Unless Florida has gotten colder, it is hard to see how a population of royals would be growing so far north of where they're naturally growing now. 

@SubTropicRay has commented before that there were a few royals that survived the freezes on the 1980s in South Tampa, but they were removed for development/reasons unknown. Across the bay, St. Petersburg has quite a few old royals so they're definitely viable long term there.

 

Could you please pinpoint these locations on a map of the Tampa/St. Pete area?

 

Perhaps Florida was more mild during the Little Ice Age.

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1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

I've posted this before, but there is a strand of wild Royals in Manatee county on Snead Island. I'm currently writing an article about them, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to finish.

 

IMG_6911.thumb.jpg.74e49cac84f64bafe103a

fullsizeoutput_40e.thumb.jpeg.715a66bfb5

IMG_6914.thumb.jpg.4ba780d0f060ec06e9e0b

IMG_6916.thumb.jpg.bc3ae0efe6f5348231e89

IMG_6918.thumb.jpg.18099bbae5e3b1aae2d39

IMG_6919.thumb.jpg.69ea946ece7c195acadd2

IMG_6922.thumb.jpg.3e60d211cf22b5b3844ae

IMG_0345.thumb.jpg.1cba2d62e9842fe446496

IMG_1239.thumb.jpg.da56cff14fac0b1604d3c

IMG_1238.thumb.jpg.5c91f75f967031078c0f6

IMG_1236.thumb.jpg.849fc4ed3fddb9d85ba9c

IMG_0384.thumb.jpg.4a9c3db4351d85b5939ae

IMG_0369.jpg

IMG_0351.jpg

 

 

Are there any large, or old royals there?

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9 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Are there any large, or old royals there?

Yeah there's a few from the early 1900's in the area. Western Manatee county has some of the oldest royals in the state from when Reasoner's nursery used to sell them in their catalogues, collected from the Fakahatchee. 

Here are some planted before 1910. These are the parent trees to the ones growing wild in the park:

IMG_6905.thumb.jpg.87c298b509e7b777a60e0

These were planted around 1925 in Bradenton:

IMG_6868.thumb.jpg.01d009b6a53ef42f16629

 

These were planted around 1909 in Palmetto near I-275:

IMG_5083.thumb.JPG.165c08680d34f32940c82

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are there any volunteers popping up around that last photo?

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I'm not sure. It's actually behind a gate (I took the photos through the bars of the gate), so it's not accessible. 

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Okay, I've updated the map.  I drew circles around the points so that they are more visible.

fl_counties_bg.png

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2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I'm skeptical of Bartram's findings. Unless Florida has gotten colder, it is hard to see how a population of royals would be growing so far north of where they're naturally growing now.

 

This is just speculation, but something like the red line might have been the extent of 'zone 10A' and orange 'zone 9B' during the Little Ice Age

possible historic limits of zones.png

Edited by Jimbean
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Skeptical of Bartram? Have you read the book? This guy drew what he saw and I understand their were limited photoshoping opportunities at the time. He had never seen a Royal palm before. Did he simply devine it’s creation?

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Also consider that there where fruiting coconuts in St. Augustine and citrus in Charleston.

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18 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Also consider that there where fruiting coconuts in St. Augustine and citrus in Charleston.

There is still hardy citrus that can be grown in Charleston, that I know! I some some sort of citrus tree (bush) when I was there. 

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It is interesting how the Royal Palm populations seem so isolated and random, they inhabit one area, then many miles away appear again. It is not like the the Sabal palmetto range where it is pretty clear where it starts and stops for the most part, as well as other U.S. native palms like the Sabal minor and Serenoa repens. To be honest, I think it would be sweet if Royal palms inhabited all of South Florida (naturally on their own), because then you could just take a look at the woods and be like, "Yep, I am in South Florida." Although there are other plants that let you do that now too. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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I wish there was more detailed research done on climate changes over the last 1000 years. 

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1 minute ago, PalmTreeDude said:

It is interesting how the Royal Palm populations seem so isolated, they inhabit one area, then many miles away appear again. It is not like the the Sabal palmetto range where it is pretty clear where it starts and stops for the most part, as well as other U.S. native palms like the Sabal minor and Serenoa repens. 

yeah, that's really got me thinking.  The population in Desoto county has really got me stumped. 

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Just now, Jimbean said:

yeah, that's really got me thinking.  The population in Desoto county has really got me stumped. 

The only other palm that makes me think of the Royal that has a somewhat wide distribution but in chunks is the Needle Palm, I guess you could throw a few palms from the Keys and extreme South Florida (as in right at the bottom of the state) in there as well. 

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It's like solving an ecological puzzle.  Trying to fit the pieces here.

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Just now, Jimbean said:

It's like solving an ecological puzzle.  Trying to fit the pieces here.

Exactly, it is interesting though! It is like, "They grow down here, and then farther North up here, why is the area in between not filled in?" 

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