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PalmatierMeg

2018/19 Winter Low Temps

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PalmatierMeg

Predicted low overnight: 44F

Current temp at 1:25 a.m.: 48.7

Looks like this may be the coldest night of the season so far. Will see after the sun comes up.

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Jimbean

I should have done this yesterday. 

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PalmatierMeg

Ultimate low early this morning: 46.8F.    Predicted: 44F.

At 10:30 a.m. temp was already up to 59F thanks to the still intense winter sun. A warmup coming in the next week of so.

Here in Cape Coral our statistically coldest lows occur in the 2nd week of Jan. around Jan. 10/11. Not coincidentally, the coldest low I ever experienced in my 25 years living on the banks of the Isabelle Canal was overnight, Jan. 10/11, 2010 when the temp fell to 28.5F.

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Estlander

Definitely a coldest night for northern half of FL so far this winter.  A low of 33F in my yard, no frost. 

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Estlander

Around 7am this morning 

FF2D331A-BF8C-46DA-B0CF-7D7D6C0C3411.jpeg

8116FAB5-1448-452C-A504-ED39EABFB30F.jpeg

FBA27E21-0EE5-4C22-A02F-CBA698FD676D.jpeg

975A2217-9600-4FFC-80DE-AA50C5966C1A.jpeg

5F49E381-DED5-490D-BBF0-28716D0E0151.jpeg

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Jimbean

It was 44F at my location in South Brevard.

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ruskinPalms

Bottomed our at 42F here today with no frost. As fast as the temp dropped yesterday Eve I thought we were going to have frost here for sure. 

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kinzyjr

Recorded 42.5F here at 6am.  It might have gotten colder overnight, but not below the winter low so far.  Surprisingly, there was ice on the windshield this morning.  A real head scratcher since all of my thermometers had similar readings along with the weather stations in my area. 

@ruskinPalms I saw the temperatures dropping pretty quickly as well and decided to cover the coconut palms up.  In this case, probably didn't need it, but better safe than sorry.

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ruskinPalms

I’ve definitely seen plenty of frost around 40F over the years especially in rooftops and cars and windshields. I think those materials radiate their heat away really well and are actually at 32F or lower even when the official air temp is well above 32F. What is the official height temps are taken at? 6 feet? 2 meters? It was very clear here last night but I think a slight breeze persisted here and there which may have kept frost from forming on the cars and roof tops here this morning. 

Edited by ruskinPalms

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ruskinPalms

I’m also surprised that Orlando got as cool as it did by the looks of the pics above. Did anyone get frost in Orlando this morning?

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kinzyjr
6 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

I’ve definitely seen plenty of frost around 40F over the years especially in rooftops and cars and windshields. I think those materials radiate their heat away really well and are actually at 32F or lower even when the official air temp is well above 32F. What is the official height temps are taken at? 6 feet? 2 meters? It was very clear here last night but I think a slight breeze persisted here and there which may have kept frost from forming on the cars and roof tops here this morning. 

My weather station sensor is at 6 feet.  I keep a mercury thermometer at 4 feet.  Before this, the highest temperature I've seen noticeable ice on a windshield or the roof of a car was 37F.  Initially, I thought both of my thermometers were playing tricks on me until I saw the screenshots above by @Estlander and then refreshed the weather on my phone.  All of the readings were pretty close to each other.

As far as "official" readings go, weather.gov says between 4'1" and 6'7" above the ground: https://www.weather.gov/media/epz/mesonet/CWOP-Siting.pdf

Weather underground has different criteria, which may help explain some of the "outlier" readings we see: https://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/installationguide.asp

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UK_Palms
19 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

My weather station sensor is at 6 feet.  I keep a mercury thermometer at 4 feet.  Before this, the highest temperature I've seen noticeable ice on a windshield or the roof of a car was 37F.  Initially, I thought both of my thermometers were playing tricks on me until I saw the screenshots above by @Estlander and then refreshed the weather on my phone.  All of the readings were pretty close to each other.

As far as "official" readings go, weather.gov says between 4'1" and 6'7" above the ground: https://www.weather.gov/media/epz/mesonet/CWOP-Siting.pdf

Weather underground has different criteria, which may help explain some of the "outlier" readings we see: https://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/installationguide.asp

This is something I don't get. Like the thermometer in my back yard was reading 1.8C (35F), yet there was a layer of frost on the top of the cars. I even moved the thermometer and placed it on top of the car for several hours to see, and it did not drop below 0.7C (33.6F), yet a layer of frost remained present on the top of the car. Surely the temp has to be below 0 (32F) for the frost to form (point of freezing). Yet from what I can see, frost is forming when the temp is a few degrees above even. I can't even begin to explain this, and it is something I keep noticing.

I am forever going out to check the cars for frost on the roofs, running my hand along the rooftop as this is the first indication of a frost for me, when there are no other signs outside. Last night the temp did not drop below 34F, yet there was frost present on the car again. And yet again I placed the electronic thermometer on top of the car, only for it to remain above freezing. So I don't logically see how there can be frost. And the thermometer is definitely reading the right temperature, and not broken, as I tested it with two separate thermometers, just to be sure, and they both had the same reading. There must be some type of mechanic/environmental factor at play here. Frost should not be forming, in theory, unless the temperature is at freezing 0C (32F), or below. I just don't get it. 

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Palmaceae
9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

This is something I don't get. Like the thermometer in my back yard was reading 1.8C (35F), yet there was a layer of frost on the top of the cars. I even moved the thermometer and placed it on top of the car for several hours to see, and it did not drop below 0.7C (33.6F), yet a layer of frost remained present on the top of the car. Surely the temp has to be below 0 (32F) for the frost to form (point of freezing). Yet from what I can see, frost is forming when the temp is a few degrees above even. I can't even begin to explain this, and it is something I keep noticing.

I am forever going out to check the cars for frost on the roofs, running my hand along the rooftop as this is the first indication of a frost for me, when there are no other signs outside. Last night the temp did not drop below 34F, yet there was frost present on the car again. And yet again I placed the electronic thermometer on top of the car, only for it to remain above freezing. So I don't logically see how there can be frost. And the thermometer is definitely reading the right temperature, and not broken, as I tested it with two separate thermometers, just to be sure, and they both had the same reading. There must be some type of mechanic/environmental factor at play here. Frost should not be forming, in theory, unless the temperature is at freezing 0C (32F), or below. I just don't get it. 

This is because the metal on the top of your car radiates heat much quicker than the surrounding air, same with roofs. So you can have temps in the low 40's and have frost on colder surfaces.

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Walt
45 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

This is something I don't get. Like the thermometer in my back yard was reading 1.8C (35F), yet there was a layer of frost on the top of the cars. I even moved the thermometer and placed it on top of the car for several hours to see, and it did not drop below 0.7C (33.6F), yet a layer of frost remained present on the top of the car. Surely the temp has to be below 0 (32F) for the frost to form (point of freezing). Yet from what I can see, frost is forming when the temp is a few degrees above even. I can't even begin to explain this, and it is something I keep noticing.

I am forever going out to check the cars for frost on the roofs, running my hand along the rooftop as this is the first indication of a frost for me, when there are no other signs outside. Last night the temp did not drop below 34F, yet there was frost present on the car again. And yet again I placed the electronic thermometer on top of the car, only for it to remain above freezing. So I don't logically see how there can be frost. And the thermometer is definitely reading the right temperature, and not broken, as I tested it with two separate thermometers, just to be sure, and they both had the same reading. There must be some type of mechanic/environmental factor at play here. Frost should not be forming, in theory, unless the temperature is at freezing 0C (32F), or below. I just don't get it. 

On 12/6/2018, 7:03:33, GottmitAlex said:

When was the last "big one" in Florida? 2009-2010 or 2010-2011? And before that, when? I'm trying to identify if there's a time pattern, if any. 

.Flat surfaces facing skyward on clear, windless (or near windless) night will radiate out what little heat they have and assume 32 degrees or lower, and the air temperature just above these surfaces can be well above freezing. If the air temperature is above 32F/0C and you see ice forming on flat surfaces (car hood, roof tops, etc., it's frozen dew, not frost. Frost only forms (via sublimation) when the temperature is below 32F/0F. But for the sake of this discussion, we will just call what you saw frost. I don't feel like going into an explanation on the difference of frozen dew and frost, so you can Google it.

But there is a distinction between the two (frozen dew and frost) that's somewhat important, so I've read (but can't find the source now). I read that frozen dew is more harmful to foliage than frost. I think it's because the dew point (actually frost point) is below 32F/0C degrees. If the frost point was say, at 28 degrees, frost (ice)wouldn't form on a palm leaf until the leaf reached 28 degrees. Where as, if the dew point was 40F degrees, dew would start forming on a palm leaf when the leaf reached 40 degrees, and more and more dew would form as the temperature dropped to 32 degrees, when all the dew would freeze. But if the dew point (frost point) was 28 degrees now dew would form, and frost wouldn't form until 28 degrees..

What does this mean? Well, it's been my experience (on adonidia palms and other zone 10+ palms) that they've seen high 20s and there was no foliage damage. But these same palm leaves were damaged by frozen dew at a higher temperature. I think I've read where a given palm growing in a more arid climate can take five degrees more cold than the same palm growing in a more humid climate (like Florida), because invariably, Florida palm will get dew forming on the leaves long before the temperature drops to 32 degrees.

I've also covered adonida palm and others on frosty nights, and even though the temperature dropped to 30 degrees, sometimes into the high 20s, the leaves weren't hurt because frozen dew/frost didn't form on the leaves. 

I may be wrong on some of the above, but I definitely believe all other factors being equal, a palm that sees say 30 degrees with no frozen dew or frost will fare much better than the same palm getting covered with frozen dew or frost.

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kinzyjr

Thank you for the explanations @Palmaceae and @Walt.  Walt's explanation is why all of us in "9b" type climates in Florida tend to put our most tender stuff under canopy.  In most cases, those areas will get cold but you won't often get frost.  This is especially true on those radiational cooling nights (last night). 

Interesting difference between frost and frozen dew.  I did notice none of my grass had any ice (frost or frozen dew) on it.

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Estlander

Morning condensation (dew) is very common in some regions and can easily be forecasted. The favorable weather elements for dew include clear skies, light wind, decent soil moisture, and low night-time dewpoint depressions. 

Dew forms when the temperature becomes equal to the dewpoint. This often happens first at ground level for two reasons. First, longwave emission causes the earth's surface to cool at night. Condensation requires the temperature to decrease to the dewpoint. Second, the soil is often the moisture source for the dew. Warm and moist soils will help with the formation of dew as the soil cools overnight. 

The cooling of warm and moist soil during the night will cause condensation especially on clear nights. Clear skies allow for the maximum release of longwave radiation to space. Cloudy skies will reflect and absorb while re-emitting longwave radiation back to the surface and that prevents as much cooling from occurring. Light wind prevents the mixing of air right at the surface with drier air aloft. Heavier dew will tend to occur when the wind is light as opposed to when the wind is strong. Especially when soils are moist, the moisture concentration will be higher near the earth's surface than higher above the earth's surface. As the air with higher moisture concentration cools, this air will produce condensation first. 

Soil moisture is EXTREMELY critical to producing dew (especially heavy dew). Dry regions that have not received rain in over a week or two are much less likely to have morning dew (especially a heavy dew). Once the soil gets a good soaking from a rain, it takes several days for the soil to lose the moisture through evaporation. If nights are clear after a good rain, dew can be expected every morning for the next few days (especially in regions with abundant vegetation, clear skies and light wind). The dewpoint depression is important because it determines how much the air will need to cool to reach saturation. With a large dewpoint depression (greater than 25 units of F), quite a bit of night-time cooling will need to take place in order to produce dew. A low dewpoint depression with the other factors favorable for dew is more likely to produce heavy dew. 

Dew is important to forecast since it impacts people. Dew can produce a thick film of water all over the car in the morning (can be especially annoying for people that don't have a garage). Time has to be spent wiping the water off the windows in order to see on-coming traffic. Dew is also important to agriculture. Dew recharges the soil moisture and limits evaporation from the soil during the time the dew is forming.

Edited by Estlander
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Walt
11 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Thank you for the explanations @Palmaceae and @Walt.  Walt's explanation is why all of us in "9b" type climates in Florida tend to put our most tender stuff under canopy.  In most cases, those areas will get cold but you won't often get frost.  This is especially true on those radiational cooling nights (last night). 

Interesting difference between frost and frozen dew.  I did notice none of my grass had any ice (frost or frozen dew) on it.

Years ago (15 or so) at this forum I used to jokingly say (but it's mostly true) that my climate is 9b in the open and 10a under tree canopy).

Long ago I would place remote digital thermometer sensors  in the open and under various densities of tree canopy. I was getting readings of at least 3 degrees F warmer under tree canopy. 

When I first bought my property I used to have some great clumps of red bay trees. These were old clumps and the trees were maybe 30-40 feet high and arched out. I strategically would plant zone 10 palms and plants on the south side of the clump (underneath the high arching canopy) so that they would get south sun during the day but would be sheltered during the night. Palms and tropical plants that didn't require full sun I would plant around the rest of the bay tree clumps. This worked great until the ambrosia beetle introduced the laurel wilt disease and killed all of my red bay (and silk bay) trees. 

On the north side of a smaller red bay clump I had a Howea forseriana planted in the ground. I had the dead bay tree clump cut down, and the Howea then got full sun and was severely burned, and subsequently died. I wasn't pleased since I had been growing this palm for about five years.

Now I have another problem. Many of my palms are in and around slash pine canopy. It's not the best canopy but it still provides good protection from frost. Now the southern pine beetle is killing my slash pines. I've already lost 30 to 40 slash pines. Many have been removed professionally and by myself, but most are still standing (dead). They are in accessible by bucket truck, and cutting them down and letting them fall is not an option -- unless I want to smash many of my palms.

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Zeeth

Lowest temp so far at my garden this year is 39˚. Lowest on Anna Maria Island is 49˚. Crazy how much difference a microclimate can make!

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UK_Palms

No idea how, but my town was the coldest place in the entire British Isles last night. I live in the warmest and driest part of the country from April - November, but last night we saw a low of 22F! I haven't protected any of my palms, as I was only expecting a low of 28F, as forecast! Not sure what happened, but my area turned into a massive cold sink last night. Temperatures just plummeted.

5 miles either side of me, temperatures did not drop below 27F, but my area got hit hard. Really hard. It might even have dipped down to 20F at the bottom of my garden. Even up north in Scotland at 55N, they didn't drop below 32F. Bloody ridiculous! Not sure how it got so cold in this locaton. Hopefully the Phoenix and Washingtonia will be okay as none of them were protected and it was a really heavy frost. 

I went outside this morning to find that my Dactylifera's pot was frozen solid, as were all the Filibusta pots! Like rock solid ice blocks. I'm trying not to swear here, but I am seriously pissed off. Didn't expect temps this low, otherwise I would have protected. I hope they will be okay, but I have big concerns now. Damn it. Phoenix Canariensis fronds were frozen onto Theophrasti fronds. Like frozen together, where they were touching. I even left the potted cacti outside which were covered in frost this morning. I am definitely going to lose something after this. It is literally a head in my hands moment.  

Also, I am only 30 miles away from London and experienced 22F. Yet London did not drop below 38F! It's crazy how mild London remains, meanwhile it's neighbouring counties can be 15-20F colder! It probably doesn't help either that I am at the bottom of a valley.

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PalmatierMeg
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

No idea how, but my town was the coldest place in the entire British Isles last night. I live in the warmest and driest part of the country from April - November, but last night we saw a low of 22F! I haven't protected any of my palms, as I was only expecting a low of 28F, as forecast! Not sure what happened, but my area turned into a massive cold sink last night. Temperatures just plummeted.

5 miles either side of me, temperatures did not drop below 27F, but my area got hit hard. Really hard. It might even have dipped down to 20F at the bottom of my garden. Even up north in Scotland at 55N, they didn't drop below 32F. Bloody ridiculous! Not sure how it got so cold in this locaton. Hopefully the Phoenix and Washingtonia will be okay as none of them were protected and it was a really heavy frost. 

I went outside this morning to find that my Dactylifera's pot was frozen solid, as were all the Filibusta pots! Like rock solid ice blocks. I'm trying not to swear here, but I am seriously pissed off. Didn't expect temps this low, otherwise I would have protected. I hope they will be okay, but I have big concerns now. Damn it. Phoenix Canariensis fronds were frozen onto Theophrasti fronds. Like frozen together, where they were touching. I even left the potted cacti outside which were covered in frost this morning. I am definitely going to lose something after this. It is literally a head in my hands moment.  

Also, I am only 30 miles away from London and experienced 22F. Yet London did not drop below 38F! It's crazy how mild London remains, meanwhile it's neighbouring counties can be 15-20F colder! It probably doesn't help either that I am at the bottom of a valley.C

Sorry to hear that. What a tough learning experience that almost all of us experience at least once. Trusting weather forecasts comes with great risks. I hope you don't lose all your seedlings. In the future, I suggest you move small potted seedlings indoors or to a shed or garage anytime lows below 0C are predicted to last more than an hour or so. And if I had even a suspicion that a low would fall to the low 20sF, I'd haul all my seedlings indoors until risk had passed.

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UK_Palms
20 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Sorry to hear that. What a tough learning experience that almost all of us experience at least once. Trusting weather forecasts comes with great risks. I hope you don't lose all your seedlings. In the future, I suggest you move small potted seedlings indoors or to a shed or garage anytime lows below 0C are predicted to last more than an hour or so. And if I had even a suspicion that a low would fall to the low 20sF, I'd haul all my seedlings indoors until risk had passed.

I already did have most of my seedlings and smaller plants indoors. I brought in the 6ft potted Robusta, as they are less cold hardy. I also brought in my best Filibusta's a few days ago, leaving the other half of them outside. Most of the cacti had come inside as well, except for a few in a trough. The 8ft CIDP can't be moved as it is too heavy and large to fit through the patio double-doors. Same with the 8ft potted Theophrasti. I would have planted them in the ground this spring, but I am looking to move house in the next year or so, which put me off planting them in the ground. I want to be able to take them with me.

It looks like we have lows of 28F forecast again tonight, so I have brought in the Dacty, the rest of the Filibusta's, the potted Chamaerops & the olives as well. My dining room is full up completely with palms & plants. There is almost no room to move and the dog doesn't like it one bit. She won't step foot in the dining room.

Snow possibly forecast for tomorrow as well, although the temps are due to rebound by Saturday evening, going from 35F at midday tomorrow, to 45F at midnight as Atlantic air replaces the continental air. It looks like in the run-up to Christmas, the temps will be 55-45F and totally frost free. Proper yo-yo affect here. I need to plan better for the next cold snap though, no doubt. 

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RJ
29 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I already did have most of my seedlings and smaller plants indoors. I brought in the 6ft potted Robusta, as they are less cold hardy. I also brought in my best Filibusta's a few days ago, leaving the other half of them outside. Most of the cacti had come inside as well, except for a few in a trough. The 8ft CIDP can't be moved as it is too heavy and large to fit through the patio double-doors. Same with the 8ft potted Theophrasti. I would have planted them in the ground this spring, but I am looking to move house in the next year or so, which put me off planting them in the ground. I want to be able to take them with me.

It looks like we have lows of 28F forecast again tonight, so I have brought in the Dacty, the rest of the Filibusta's, the potted Chamaerops & the olives as well. My dining room is full up completely with palms & plants. There is almost no room to move and the dog doesn't like it one bit. She won't step foot in the dining room.

Snow possibly forecast for tomorrow as well, although the temps are due to rebound by Saturday evening, going from 35F at midday tomorrow, to 45F at midnight as Atlantic air replaces the continental air. It looks like in the run-up to Christmas, the temps will be 55-45F and totally frost free. Proper yo-yo affect here. I need to plan better for the next cold snap though, no doubt. 

Yikes, My wife left my Jade plans out the other night. We dropped to almost 28 but they got toasted. I wheel all my potted palms in with anything close to 32 on the forecast. About 30 palms but it only take about 10 minutes. I wheeled them all out yesterday as I don't have any temps for the next week or so below 38. 57 outside right now with a nice rain, much needed after being cooped up inside for a couple days. 

 

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm in a rental house currently waiting on our house to be built. It can't be done soon enough. 

 

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Walt
5 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Lowest temp so far at my garden this year is 39˚. Lowest on Anna Maria Island is 49˚. Crazy how much difference a microclimate can make!

That's not due to microclimate, but because the bay water is still in the 60s, and the relative heat of the water is holding nighttime temperatures up on AMI. AMI has a mesoclimate (larger area than a microclimate but smaller than a macroclimate. Out in my environs, bodies of water (lakes) and/or high ground is everything with respect to higher nighttime temperatures (on the coldest winter nights).

I have a friend that lives on the east shore of Lake June (3,500 acre lake) just a few miles west of me. He and I would compare nighttime lows for years. On the coldest radiational cooling nights he averaged 12 degrees F warmer than at my place -- all due to his place being in proximity of the lake water, which even in January is in the 60s. The lake is like a big radiator.

Up in town, less than two miles away it runs constantly 7-8 degrees warmer on the coldest mornings than at my place, at much lower altitude. I know this for a fact, checking the temperature with my car thermometer. I also check nighttime lows with the STEM weather station at Lake Placid Elementary School, which is on much higher ground than at my place. Last winter I figure my lowest low dropped into the high 20sF degrees (for very short duration) based on foliage damage to my coconut palm, A. alex., A. cunn. D. leptocheilos, D. lutescens, etc. The school's low was just over 35F degrees on the coldest night.

I have another friend who used to live (he sold it) on Lake Pearl, a sink hole lake. His lot was in the upper crater of the lake, so it's like living in a tea cup. His lot got the full benefit of the lake water's relative warmth. He had a huge jade vine that I envied. These coconut palms are just across the street from his house. The first pic is from 2016 and the second is from 2002. These palms are testament of the climate on high ground and by a lake. A Google June 2011 street view of the coconut palms recovering from the horrid December of 2010 cold spell (when I recorded 19.8 degrees in my outer lower property and 20.8 degrees 25 feet out from my house. My property is only about 3 miles (as the crow flies) from these coconut palms. They surely would have been killed had they seen the low temperatures my property saw. I protected my coconut palm and it survived with no problem.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.2865635,-81.3627962,3a,42.2y,8.5h,99.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZrMR9euIDlqulk9uVMbf7w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Lake Pearl Drive coconut palms.JPG

Lake Pearle Dr. coconut palms 2002.JPG

Thermometer reading (19.8) 12-27-2010.jpg

Thermometer reading (20.8)  12-28-10.jpg

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GottmitAlex
On 12/11/2018, 6:23:55, kinzyjr said:

Decided tonight would be a good night to perform a dry run on the coconuts.  38F probably won't do anything but bronze a few leaf tips, but I did notice that protection is a little more complicated since the Jamaican Talls are a lot taller.

One would think Lakeland is good-to-go for Cocos. Much better average climate (stat-based) than that of San Diego.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeland,_Florida#Climate

 

10:50pm pst, @ 60F/15C at the border.

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kinzyjr
5 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

One would think Lakeland is good-to-go for Cocos. Much better average climate (stat-based) than that of San Diego.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeland,_Florida#Climate

10:50pm pst, @ 60F/15C at the border.

Our average temperatures do hide how cold it gets at points.  If we didn't have a few lows in the mid-20s each year, we'd have them everywhere.  @Walt has the same situation I do 90 minutes to the south of me.  360 days per year, it's coconut weather.  5 days per year, it's live oak weather ;).  Growers in Orlando and Tampa face much of the same challenges in this regard.  We try to compensate with lakes, canopy, graded landscapes, planting close to structures, windbreaks, and urban heat islands.  When the worst advective freezes come (1985 for Lakeland), those microclimates tend to weaken or disappear.  

I was shocked that another grower had a coconut palm survive the 28F advective freeze last year completely out in the open with no canopy, special siting, or lake microclimate.  It was below freezing between 10 and 12 hours in different areas of the city with a stiff 15mph-20mph wind all night.  This came a few weeks after a pair of nights near freezing with frost caused some damage and an abnormally warm week with lows mostly above 60 degrees put them back in active growth.  If the plant survives to maturity, he will never have to worry about coconuts laying in his yard :) 

I attached a picture of the monthly weather from Jan. 2018.  It appears they have amended some of the numbers.  Originally, the 18th showed a 25F low (I had 28F on my weather station) and the 4th had a recorded low of 31F (don't remember what I had that night).

201812180730_Jan2018_MonthWeather.png

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Missi

Last night brought the lowest temp of the season thus far for me in inland Naples. 46 degrees.

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mdsonofthesouth
On 12/18/2018, 7:37:10, kinzyjr said:

Our average temperatures do hide how cold it gets at points.  If we didn't have a few lows in the mid-20s each year, we'd have them everywhere.  @Walt has the same situation I do 90 minutes to the south of me.  360 days per year, it's coconut weather.  5 days per year, it's live oak weather ;).  Growers in Orlando and Tampa face much of the same challenges in this regard.  We try to compensate with lakes, canopy, graded landscapes, planting close to structures, windbreaks, and urban heat islands.  When the worst advective freezes come (1985 for Lakeland), those microclimates tend to weaken or disappear.  

I was shocked that another grower had a coconut palm survive the 28F advective freeze last year completely out in the open with no canopy, special siting, or lake microclimate.  It was below freezing between 10 and 12 hours in different areas of the city with a stiff 15mph-20mph wind all night.  This came a few weeks after a pair of nights near freezing with frost caused some damage and an abnormally warm week with lows mostly above 60 degrees put them back in active growth.  If the plant survives to maturity, he will never have to worry about coconuts laying in his yard :) 

I attached a picture of the monthly weather from Jan. 2018.  It appears they have amended some of the numbers.  Originally, the 18th showed a 25F low (I had 28F on my weather station) and the 4th had a recorded low of 31F (don't remember what I had that night).

201812180730_Jan2018_MonthWeather.png

 

This is us too. 360 days it's cold hardy palm weather and 5 days its loblolly pine weather lol. 

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Mr. Coconut Palm

36F and 37F on two back to back nights back in November, and so far nothing below 40F to 42F for me in December.  The airport got down to 33F back in November and has been down in the 30'sF a total of 4 times so far, as I recall, but it is 20 miles inland from me.  So far, a relatively mild winter.

John

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PalmatierMeg

Statistically, here in Cape Coral the coldest point of a winter centers around Jan. 10. We generally get a major arctic outbreak the 2nd week of Jan. Doesn't mean we won't get cold weather the 6 weeks before or after - we do. But each day after Jan. 10 I grow more hopeful the worst will soon be over. The arctic front in mid-Feb. is far less lethal than one in mid-Jan.

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Palmaceae

I am sorta glad it has been a cool December as it will hopefully harden off the palms a bit. But I am glad we have received quite a bit a rain for this month which is not normal, just the last 2 days we received over 2" of rain.

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PalmTreeDude
On 12/14/2018, 3:14:10, Walt said:

That's not due to microclimate, but because the bay water is still in the 60s, and the relative heat of the water is holding nighttime temperatures up on AMI. AMI has a mesoclimate (larger area than a microclimate but smaller than a macroclimate. Out in my environs, bodies of water (lakes) and/or high ground is everything with respect to higher nighttime temperatures (on the coldest winter nights).

I have a friend that lives on the east shore of Lake June (3,500 acre lake) just a few miles west of me. He and I would compare nighttime lows for years. On the coldest radiational cooling nights he averaged 12 degrees F warmer than at my place -- all due to his place being in proximity of the lake water, which even in January is in the 60s. The lake is like a big radiator.

Up in town, less than two miles away it runs constantly 7-8 degrees warmer on the coldest mornings than at my place, at much lower altitude. I know this for a fact, checking the temperature with my car thermometer. I also check nighttime lows with the STEM weather station at Lake Placid Elementary School, which is on much higher ground than at my place. Last winter I figure my lowest low dropped into the high 20sF degrees (for very short duration) based on foliage damage to my coconut palm, A. alex., A. cunn. D. leptocheilos, D. lutescens, etc. The school's low was just over 35F degrees on the coldest night.

I have another friend who used to live (he sold it) on Lake Pearl, a sink hole lake. His lot was in the upper crater of the lake, so it's like living in a tea cup. His lot got the full benefit of the lake water's relative warmth. He had a huge jade vine that I envied. These coconut palms are just across the street from his house. The first pic is from 2016 and the second is from 2002. These palms are testament of the climate on high ground and by a lake. A Google June 2011 street view of the coconut palms recovering from the horrid December of 2010 cold spell (when I recorded 19.8 degrees in my outer lower property and 20.8 degrees 25 feet out from my house. My property is only about 3 miles (as the crow flies) from these coconut palms. They surely would have been killed had they seen the low temperatures my property saw. I protected my coconut palm and it survived with no problem.

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.2865635,-81.3627962,3a,42.2y,8.5h,99.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZrMR9euIDlqulk9uVMbf7w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Lake Pearl Drive coconut palms.JPG

Lake Pearle Dr. coconut palms 2002.JPG

Thermometer reading (19.8) 12-27-2010.jpg

Thermometer reading (20.8)  12-28-10.jpg

Now THAT is what all Florida coconuts should look like, a nice full crown and tall. 

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bubba

Lows of 56F. on Dec.22,2018 and 54F this morning.Predictable 7F bump over PBIA.

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PalmatierMeg

Low 47.7F this morning.

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Walt
14 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Now THAT is what all Florida coconuts should look like, a nice full crown and tall. 

I think the reason (I believe Dr. Tim Broschat of the University of Florida told me at a seminar I attended many, many years ago) many coconut palms in Florida don't have full crowns of fronds is due to premature potassium deficiency, where the lower most fronds die back from K deficiency. Whereas coconut palms growing under year round tropical conditions have full crowns where the bottom most fronds hang straight down.

Somebody more in the know than I am might be able to confirm the above.

My trunked green Malayan dwarf coconut palm is already showing winter potassium deficiency on its lower most fronds. It happens every winter.

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Missi

Yesterday morning my shadehouse saw 39 degrees, according to my new digital thermometer's memory.

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PalmatierMeg

Walt, my coconuts show the same deficiency, esp. the juveniles. I assume tossing potassium around them won't help because the cool weather inhibits uptake of nutrients. I try to avoid adding extra nutrients during winter anyway. The winter so far is as forecast: cooler, cloudier and wetter. I - and hopefully the palms - can live with that if we can avoid frigid arctic outbreaks.

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Walt
1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Walt, my coconuts show the same deficiency, esp. the juveniles. I assume tossing potassium around them won't help because the cool weather inhibits uptake of nutrients. I try to avoid adding extra nutrients during winter anyway. The winter so far is as forecast: cooler, cloudier and wetter. I - and hopefully the palms - can live with that if we can avoid frigid arctic outbreaks.

Meg:  I will take some photos of my coconut palm and post them later showing the K deficiency already in the lower most fronds. Since my nighttime temps are lower than yours, my coconut palm probably shows more K deficiency. My soil temperatures are probably lower. One juvenile coconut palm that was given to me earlier this year really shows K deficiency, unless somehow it was frost damaged. To my knowledge I haven't had any frost here. But it's possible I had frost because the Sebring FAWN weather tower recorded a low of 41 degrees on December 11th, the coldest so far this fall and winter. I generally run a few degrees colder, so the low may have dipped into the high 30s at my place. But my wife walks our three dogs every morning before the sun is up and she never observed any frost so far.

This morning I checked Lake Placid's Elementary School STEM weather station and found a 10-day Christmas present: 

Christmas day 10-day forecast.png

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