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Phoenix theophrasti

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Fusca

Container culture definitely different than in-ground.  None of my container plants would survive a week without water during summer.  Interesting that your container Phoenix have survived such low winter temps - good to know!  Your Theo probably has a pretty aggressive root system going compared to your Canariensis.  I'm sure they're both begging to be put in the ground, but I'm not sure if that's an option for you.  I recently drove by several date ranches in California and saw some Dactylifera growing very nicely near a lake and others nearly dead just 100 yards away.  They still need their water!

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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, Fusca said:

Container culture definitely different than in-ground.  None of my container plants would survive a week without water during summer.  Interesting that your container Phoenix have survived such low winter temps - good to know!  Your Theo probably has a pretty aggressive root system going compared to your Canariensis.  I'm sure they're both begging to be put in the ground, but I'm not sure if that's an option for you.  I recently drove by several date ranches in California and saw some Dactylifera growing very nicely near a lake and others nearly dead just 100 yards away.  They still need their water!

Yeah, they're crying out to go in the ground. I would plant them both in the ground as well, but there are several factors preventing me. Firstly I am right on the border of the required climate zone, so it's a bit of a grey area. Most winters typically see a low of 20F, but every 4-5 years we get a really cold winter with lots of snow and lows down to 10F, which spells suicide for most Phoenix palms, at least outside of a dry, desert climate. So sooner or later they will succumb to the frost, even if they survive several winters. 30 miles to the south of me though, they don't have to worry about this issue. It is because I am inland, away from the coast. Anyway, being in a pot allows me to move them into the garage, or indoors, on the coldest of nights, which we may get once every 3 years or so.

The other issue preventing me from planting them, is that I may be moving house in the next 6-12 months. In fact I will be moving house more than likely. So I am reluctant to plant them in the ground and then either have to dig them back up again, or leave them behind and lose that palm I have spent years growing and had spent lots of money on. So as it stands right now, they are staying in pots. Its just easer because of my situation. I also have the issue of clay, waterlogged soils around my house. This isn't so much of an issue in summer (although the clay soil still dries out easy), but in the winter the water pools and collects and the ground becomes saturated. That also isn't ideal for Phoenix palms in the winter. So its a bit of a risk planting those Phoenix's at my current location.

Regarding the Dactylifera, I actaully lost 2 of my 3 seed grown Dacty's this year due to the heat and drought again. They were in smallish pots and just dried out completely and died off. I maybe didn't water them for 5 days, and every day was like 90F. Again, this caught me completely off guard. I thought they would be okay. Obviously not. Even Dacty's like quite a bit of water in the summer it seems. Whereas the Washingtonia were absolutely fine without water! Anyway, 1 of the 3 Dacty's survived with minimal damage, thankfully, so I am currently growing that on...

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UK_Palms
On 11/27/2018, 5:09:37, Steve in Florida said:

I've grown them from seed from several localities.  The most resistant to highly humid conditions is the form from Crete. This one reportedly has it's origins from Crete.

Surely the most cold hardy and most resistant to humid conditions would be from the population in southern Turkey?

Crete is an island and stays fairly mild year round with the exception of their hot summers. Lows in winter rarely drop below 40F and rainfall is also only around 20 inches. So it is fairly dry and mild in Crete. Whereas the population in southern Turkey are exposed to rainfall totals of around 30-35 inches in their locality, with wet-cold winters that regularly see frost, since Turkey is not an island, and cold air masses can travel freely from the north of the country to the south. I should think the Turkish population see winter frosts down to -3C most years, something the Crete population never experiences. Bearing in mind that is also a wet-cold as well, as southern Turkey receives lots of rainfall in winter.

The Turkish population would definitely be hardier in that respect. Both populations seem to have equal hardiness in regards to wet, humid conditions, but the Turkish population is more resistant to wet-cold, surely. Not that it is an enormous difference though. It probably differs by a few degrees when it comes to wet-cold. 

I believe the blueish Theo type is the Turkish one and the greener variety is the one from Crete. I can't be sure though. There is also a third population, that is slightly different, found on the Greek mainland, in very small numbers, that was once part of an ancient palm forest. I also think the native specimens in Anafi island and Astypalea island are slightly different to the Crete and Turkish populations. Ultimately there hasn't been enough study or data carried out on Theophrasti as a whole.

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Steve in Florida

The Turkish form was the best in developing dark spots on 100% of the plants while the ones from the Crete seed source growing beside them were nearly unscathed.  I disposed of them and potted up the Crete form.  The Cretan ones later experienced 14F in the high tunnels when the heaters failed.  After at least 7 hours at that temperature the root balls froze solid, but I didn't loose a single one. Frozen/damaged root tips grew new roots and the plants were as if nothing happened after three months.

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John Derek
On 11/26/2018, 11:37:13, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I know of a small batch of Theos field grown near Alexandria, LA that made it through this winter without too much burn and are doing well.  Several hundred Butia Odorata next to them defoliated and died from fungus and are being bulldozed.  The Odorata were 4-7' clear trunk specimens and the theos have leaves about 9-11' tall.  That part of LA is as hot and humid as you're going to get in the summer and the rainfall is around the highest of anywhere in the Southeast US.

I have sold seedling and 3-5G Theos for the last two years.  

The two I bought from you last year and doing great in NW Louisiana.

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

The Turkish form was the best in developing dark spots on 100% of the plants while the ones from the Crete seed source growing beside them were nearly unscathed.  I disposed of them and potted up the Crete form.  The Cretan ones later experienced 14F in the high tunnels when the heaters failed.  After at least 7 hours at that temperature the root balls froze solid, but I didn't loose a single one. Frozen/damaged root tips grew new roots and the plants were as if nothing happened after three months.

So the Turkish one developed dark spots, but the Crete ones didn't? Seems odd. Are you sure that the palms from the batch didn't just come from seeds from a particular dodgy specimen that was prone to these dark spots? Both populations are pretty much identical, except for minor differences in wet-cold hardiness and a slight blue colour variant. The differences are barely noticeable though. If you weren't a palm enthusiast, you would struggle to tell the Cretan one and Turkish one apart. 

Outside of a dry desert/mediterranean climate, Theophrasti cannot survive below 20F for more than a few hours. I have heard of people losing the Cretan form after a low of 18F for several hours. The only thing I can think is that you must have kept the pot and soil completely dry, which may have helped. Even still, I am surprised you didn't have a few losses, with just the stronger specimens surviving. Where you are in FL, cold snaps like that must be very rare, so most of the time in winter highs and lows are in the 70s and 50s. So I would have thought a one-off cold snap down to 14F would shock the crap out of them and kill them, since they would still be growing at the time and not dormant. Unlike say in the UK or France, where most palms go dormant come December, and become accustomed to highs and lows in the 40s and 30s. They are less likely to be shocked by a sudden polar event and better protected against it.

As far as I know, you have recorded the only ever instance where Cretan Date Palms have seen temps as low as 14F for 7+ hours, with frozen solid root masses, and not had any die from it. Strangely you say that the damage was minimal as well. I believe what you are saying, but there has to be more to this. There must be more variables at play which kept them alive, or they must have been hybridized with something like Dacty, which are known to survive down to 0F in dry desert climates. 

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kinzyjr

I currently have 11 of them in the ground in different environments (full sun, part shade, high-and-dry, lower and damper).  One looks like it is on its way out, but the rest are doing fine so far.  They love being in the ground here, but @_Keith had bad experiences with them in Louisiana.  I guess this is one of those hit-or-miss deals.  All of mine are grown from seeds sourced in Crete.  I've been interested in getting a few Golkoys from Turkey to see if there was a difference, but the last time I tried to buy Golkoy I ended up receiving phoenix dactylifera seeds.

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Yort
On 6-1-2019 08:11:57, UK_Palms said:

 

 

On 6-1-2019 08:11:57, UK_Palms said:

Surely the most cold hardy and most resistant to humid conditions would be from the population in southern Turkey?

Crete is an island and stays fairly mild year round with the exception of their hot summers. Lows in winter rarely drop below 40F and rainfall is also only around 20 inches. So it is fairly dry and mild in Crete. Whereas the population in southern Turkey are exposed to rainfall totals of around 30-35 inches in their locality, with wet-cold winters that regularly see frost, since Turkey is not an island, and cold air masses can travel freely from the north of the country to the south. I should think the Turkish population see winter frosts down to -3C most years, something the Crete population never experiences. Bearing in mind that is also a wet-cold as well, as southern Turkey receives lots of rainfall in winter.

The Turkish population would definitely be hardier in that respect. Both populations seem to have equal hardiness in regards to wet, humid conditions, but the Turkish population is more resistant to wet-cold, surely. Not that it is an enormous difference though. It probably differs by a few degrees when it comes to wet-cold. 

I believe the blueish Theo type is the Turkish one and the greener variety is the one from Crete. I can't be sure though. There is also a third population, that is slightly different, found on the Greek mainland, in very small numbers, that was once part of an ancient palm forest. I also think the native specimens in Anafi island and Astypalea island are slightly different to the Crete and Turkish populations. Ultimately there hasn't been enough study or data carried out on Theophrasti as a whole.

I have been studying and growing many varieties of Phoenix theoprasti in The Netherlands for some years now. And I wrote an article about the palms of Epidavros. Actually I am currently writing from ancient Epidavros in Greece. I have even found some more palms scattered around Epidavros and I will write a updated article about these palms and their conservation in the coming months.

 

I mostly agree with your statements, however I believe the Epidavros theophrasti have an even better cold tolerance compared to the ones from Turkey. Two years ago I planted a statistical number of seedlings of the Vai, Golkoy and Epidavros varieties and canariensis and dactylifra. The first winter they suffered t-min -12°C. Only the Epidavros variety survived with some damage on the leaf tips and is still growing well today. I am also planning to conduct an ion leakage test to compare frost tolerance for multiple theophrasti varieties to varify these field results.

 

I think amount of rainfall is not that important since these palms usually grow in riverbeds. Today I visited the Epidavros population and the soil is complete soaked. The palms are literally standing in the water. Tonight a temperature of -3°C and snow is expected in Epidavros. 

 

About the 'blue' and green varieties. All theophrasti populations on Crete as well as in Turkey have morphological differences. I believe this is a combination of genotype and environment. Theophrasti palms like many other palms have a waxy layer on their leaves which makes them look white-blue. The wax reflects sunlight and reduces water loss and is therefore mainly produced in summer when temperatures are high, water is of short supply and sunlight is intense. So these palms appear white-blue in summer conditions and greener in winter conditions. I believe it is possible that some genotypes have a tendency to produce more of this wax on their leaves then others but it would hardly be noticeable.

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, Yort said:

 

I have been studying and growing many varieties of Phoenix theoprasti in The Netherlands for some years now. And I wrote an article about the palms of Epidavros. Actually I am currently writing from ancient Epidavros in Greece. I have even found some more palms scattered around Epidavros and I will write a updated article about these palms and their conservation in the coming months.

 

I mostly agree with your statements, however I believe the Epidavros theophrasti have an even better cold tolerance compared to the ones from Turkey. Two years ago I planted a statistical number of seedlings of the Vai, Golkoy and Epidavros varieties and canariensis and dactylifra. The first winter they suffered t-min -12°C. Only the Epidavros variety survived with some damage on the leaf tips and is still growing well today. I am also planning to conduct an ion leakage test to compare frost tolerance for multiple theophrasti varieties to varify these field results.

 

I think amount of rainfall is not that important since these palms usually grow in riverbeds. Today I visited the Epidavros population and the soil is complete soaked. The palms are literally standing in the water. Tonight a temperature of -3°C and snow is expected in Epidavros. 

 

About the 'blue' and green varieties. All theophrasti populations on Crete as well as in Turkey have morphological differences. I believe this is a combination of genotype and environment. Theophrasti palms like many other palms have a waxy layer on their leaves which makes them look white-blue. The wax reflects sunlight and reduces water loss and is therefore mainly produced in summer when temperatures are high, water is of short supply and sunlight is intense. So these palms appear white-blue in summer conditions and greener in winter conditions. I believe it is possible that some genotypes have a tendency to produce more of this wax on their leaves then others but it would hardly be noticeable.

At least someone is doing some investigative study on this species! :greenthumb:

Thanks for clarifying some of the information above. There doesn't seem to be a lot of data or information out there about Theophrasti, compared to other Phoenix types. I have heard all sorts of conflicting information about it's hardiness, requirements, growth etc. And the information that is out there is pretty scarce. 

Just out of curiosity... out of the Vai, Golkoy, Canariensis & Dactylifera, which was the first to kick the bucket (die), and which of them was the last to be killed off? I'm just wondering how each of those other species compared to each other in your climate? 

And what is the possibility of obtaining some seed from the Epidavros population at some point, if I pay for postage? I would love to test it in my climate, which is pretty similar to yours. I don't need it this year necessarily. Maybe if you happen to go back out there again at some point, and collect more seed, I would definitely be interested! :shaka-2: 

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Yort

The Vai, Golkoy, canariensis and dactylifra all looked similar and completely fried after the -12°C freeze. At first canariensis was surprisingly enough looking better then the rest but turned completely brown later. So from these result I cannot tell which one is second but the ion leakage test could reveal some more information.

 

There are only 5 small subpopulations of the Epidavros theophrasti with a total of only two seed producing trees, both producing few seeds. The first one is producing hybrid seeds with canariensis, these seedlings show hybrid vigour and are growing very well. However it is likely that the cold tolerance of these seedlings will vary. The second one is producing true to type seeds but there is clearly inbreeding depression going on in this offspring. Albinism is present and growth is mostly very weak.

 

 

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UK_Palms
5 hours ago, Yort said:

The Vai, Golkoy, canariensis and dactylifra all looked similar and completely fried after the -12°C freeze. At first canariensis was surprisingly enough looking better then the rest but turned completely brown later. So from these result I cannot tell which one is second but the ion leakage test could reveal some more information.

 

There are only 5 small subpopulations of the Epidavros theophrasti with a total of only two seed producing trees, both producing few seeds. The first one is producing hybrid seeds with canariensis, these seedlings show hybrid vigour and are growing very well. However it is likely that the cold tolerance of these seedlings will vary. The second one is producing true to type seeds but there is clearly inbreeding depression going on in this offspring. Albinism is present and growth is mostly very weak.

 

 

 

So Canariensis appeared the most cold hardy out of the bunch it sounds like (excluding Epidavros). My Canariensis, which is sat in a pot on my patio, does not take any damage at -5C. It is pretty darn hardy, but I think that is because it has been grown from seed and has built up good cold tolerance in my climate, over the years. 

It sounds like the Epidavros Theo's may require hand pollenation, so you can guarantee the seeds, and so you know exactly what offspring you will be getting, from what parents. The work is still in its early stages, but it sounds like you are pioneering this study and experimentation into this type. I can't commend you enough for that. Top work!

I would love to try out some of those hybrid phoenix's. I attempted to make that exact same hybrid cross this summer, as my Theophrasti is male and my Canariensis is female. Unfortunately the cross did not work for some reason. The Canariensis did not produce viable seed, although it was its first year that it had flowered. I might try it again next year. 

I would love to see a cross between one of the hardier Phoenix Canariensis var. porphyrocarpa (red fruits) crossed with a Epidavros Theophrasti. The resulting hybrid should be pretty well adapted to our climate and a very nice looking palm. I'm only 26 years old, so I'm hoping to make a load of hybrid palm crosses in the next decade or so. Mostly Phoenix hybrids. Right now I am experimenting with Washingtonia hybrids. 

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Phoenikakias
8 hours ago, Yort said:

The Vai, Golkoy, canariensis and dactylifra all looked similar and completely fried after the -12°C freeze. At first canariensis was surprisingly enough looking better then the rest but turned completely brown later. So from these result I cannot tell which one is second but the ion leakage test could reveal some more information.

 

There are only 5 small subpopulations of the Epidavros theophrasti with a total of only two seed producing trees, both producing few seeds. The first one is producing hybrid seeds with canariensis, these seedlings show hybrid vigour and are growing very well. However it is likely that the cold tolerance of these seedlings will vary. The second one is producing true to type seeds but there is clearly inbreeding depression going on in this offspring. Albinism is present and growth is mostly very weak.

 

 

@Fallacia

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Steve in Florida
On 1/6/2019, 11:42:06, UK_Palms said:

So the Turkish one developed dark spots, but the Crete ones didn't? Seems odd. Are you sure that the palms from the batch didn't just come from seeds from a particular dodgy specimen that was prone to these dark spots? Both populations are pretty much identical, except for minor differences in wet-cold hardiness and a slight blue colour variant. The differences are barely noticeable though. If you weren't a palm enthusiast, you would struggle to tell the Cretan one and Turkish one apart. 

Outside of a dry desert/mediterranean climate, Theophrasti cannot survive below 20F for more than a few hours. I have heard of people losing the Cretan form after a low of 18F for several hours. The only thing I can think is that you must have kept the pot and soil completely dry, which may have helped. Even still, I am surprised you didn't have a few losses, with just the stronger specimens surviving. Where you are in FL, cold snaps like that must be very rare, so most of the time in winter highs and lows are in the 70s and 50s. So I would have thought a one-off cold snap down to 14F would shock the crap out of them and kill them, since they would still be growing at the time and not dormant. Unlike say in the UK or France, where most palms go dormant come December, and become accustomed to highs and lows in the 40s and 30s. They are less likely to be shocked by a sudden polar event and better protected against it.

As far as I know, you have recorded the only ever instance where Cretan Date Palms have seen temps as low as 14F for 7+ hours, with frozen solid root masses, and not had any die from it. Strangely you say that the damage was minimal as well. I believe what you are saying, but there has to be more to this. There must be more variables at play which kept them alive, or they must have been hybridized with something like Dacty, which are known to survive down to 0F in dry desert climates. 

The Turkish ones came from habitat collected Golkoy seeds sold by a very well known Belgium nursery that closed some years ago.  I bought the seeds to test them against the Cretan variety.   The Cretan seeds came from the same nursery, then later RPS and a UK nursery.  I do not allow them to completely dry out.  Pooling of water at the roots during periods of extended cold is not allowed.  After growing many hundreds of the Cretan variety from three batches I can speak directly from first hand knowledge and not speculation, of their consistently.  They were not grown in Florida so your speculation is not applicable.  Date palms have survived mid teens unprotected in The Southwestern United States and to this day in 7b Russia.  Much has been written about P. dactylifera in recent years because of the commercial date industry but Phoenix theophrasti was first formally described way back in 370 BC!            

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Henoh
23 hours ago, Yort said:

 

I have been studying and growing many varieties of Phoenix theoprasti in The Netherlands for some years now. And I wrote an article about the palms of Epidavros. Actually I am currently writing from ancient Epidavros in Greece. I have even found some more palms scattered around Epidavros and I will write a updated article about these palms and their conservation in the coming months.

 

I mostly agree with your statements, however I believe the Epidavros theophrasti have an even better cold tolerance compared to the ones from Turkey. Two years ago I planted a statistical number of seedlings of the Vai, Golkoy and Epidavros varieties and canariensis and dactylifra. The first winter they suffered t-min -12°C. Only the Epidavros variety survived with some damage on the leaf tips and is still growing well today. I am also planning to conduct an ion leakage test to compare frost tolerance for multiple theophrasti varieties to varify these field results.

https://www.coldpalm.nl/media/pdf/Phoenix_theophrasti_var._Epidaurus.pdf

Very informative text.

Edited by Henoh
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UK_Palms

I think it is important to create seed of this Epidaurus variety, through hand pollination, sooner rather than later. By having resources of seed, we can safeguard the future of this sub-species/variant from the threats of the red palm weevil and human encroachment, which have clearly already reduced the numbers of this rare palm enormously.

We would also need to do this before Canariensis manages to pollenate everything, otherwise you may end up with only Epidaurus/Canariensis hybrids in the not to distant future. I am tempted to travel to Epidaurus myself, in the coming years, not only because it is a rare and endangered palm variety, but also because it is clearly very hardy and suitable for colder, wetter climates. I think we need to collect seed of this ASAP. 

@Yort How many seeds do you have of this variety? I would love to get some going in the UK, and would also be tempted to begin some guerrilla plantings of several specimens in the coming years, in the southeast of the UK, confined to a specific area. If people did the same in Holland and France, you can hopefully expect to see the survival of the species as there are no red palm weevils present in our areas. 

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Yort

I recognize five major threads (no specific order) for the palms at Epidavros:

1: Hybridisation

2: Inbreeding depression

3: lack of pollination (male and female trees are separated)

4: Red palm weevil

5: Removal by humans

 

Currently, only the southernmost population of the Epidavros theophrasti seems to be affected by the palm weevil which are only young trees, four of them died this year. Many canariensis (I estimate about 50%) around town have already died because of the weevil.

 

Two years ago I planted some seedlings of both genotypes as well as Vai, preveli, Golkoy, and many other Phoenix species in my greenhouse to use for breeding purposes in the future. Three rows of hybrids on the left and three rows of true to type on the right.

IMG_20180921_123034.thumb.jpg.b522add257 

I believe the best way to save these palms and keep them true to type would be to conserve them in Epidavros by using manual pollination to produce seed with sufficient genetic variation in it. This seed should be grown and planted locally.

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Phoenikakias

How have you reached the conclusion that there are hybrids of the epidaurian Theophrasti?

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Yort
20 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

How have you reached the conclusion that there are hybrids of the epidaurian Theophrasti?

There are only female trees on Vagionia beach and all fruits are parthenocarp. Only one palm which is close to a male canariensis produces few viable seeds. Although self pollination and even apomixis is known to exist in date palms it is very unlikely because the offspring seem to have a large genetic variation. It cannot be completely ruled out that some pollen from the male theophrasti higher up the mountain have reached this palm but I believe this to be highly unlikely because then it would also have reached the other palms on Vagionia.

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UK_Palms

@Yort Wow, what a fantastic setup! That greenhouse will look crazy in a couple of years when they start packing on growth!

Top work! :greenthumb:

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Phoenikakias
1 hour ago, Yort said:

There are only female trees on Vagionia beach and all fruits are parthenocarp. Only one palm which is close to a male canariensis produces few viable seeds. Although self pollination and even apomixis is known to exist in date palms it is very unlikely because the offspring seem to have a large genetic variation. It cannot be completely ruled out that some pollen from the male theophrasti higher up the mountain have reached this palm but I believe this to be highly unlikely because then it would also have reached the other palms on Vagionia.

In Vayonia all palms are super tall, but the clump on the opposite to the road edge of the beach. I have gathered with a special seed collector fixed on a pole fruits from this clump, and indeed all fruits were unpollinated. But I pretty much doubt that this particular clump is  actually theophrasti! On the other hand I have discovered seeds beneath the twins and also a sprouted seedling, which seemed being a genuine theo as it had ultra hard textured strap leaves, beneath the plant inside the fence. It is self evident that I did not have the chance to search for seeds inside the fence. I have also found a seed beneath the female plant at the entrance of the taverna's front yard. Do you spend all winter and spring in Epidauros, so that you can confirm that blooming of CIDP's and Theos coincide? It happens so, that I cultivate both theos and CIDP in my garden in southern Attica (with a climate very similar to one of Epidauros except the high air humidity in latter place) and therefore I have the chance to watch their habit closely. Female Phoenix flowers are not receptive for a long time notwithstanding that they keep their tiny  ball-like shape for some time before they either get aborted or transform to fruits. I do not recall seeing ever a CIDP actively blooming in my garden simultaneously with theos. Which cretan population do you consider the peloponnesian one to be closer to?

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TexasColdHardyPalms
On 1/4/2019, 6:54:47, Fusca said:

I'm not sure of the age - I bought it from Joseph @TexasColdHardyPalms  I'm sure he could tell you but I believe he grew it from seed.  At the time back in March he was about to pot it up to a 5-gallon container.  I really like it but it is a prickly one!

I believe those seeds were germinated early 2016 or late 2015. 

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

In Vayonia all palms are super tall, but the clump on the opposite to the road edge of the beach. I have gathered with a special seed collector fixed on a pole fruits from this clump, and indeed all fruits were unpollinated. But I pretty much doubt that this particular clump is  actually theophrasti! On the other hand I have discovered seeds beneath the twins and also a sprouted seedling, which seemed being a genuine theo as it had ultra hard textured strap leaves, beneath the plant inside the fence. It is self evident that I did not have the chance to search for seeds inside the fence. I have also found a seed beneath the female plant at the entrance of the taverna's front yard. Do you spend all winter and spring in Epidauros, so that you can confirm that blooming of CIDP's and Theos coincide? It happens so, that I cultivate both theos and CIDP in my garden in southern Attica (with a climate very similar to one of Epidauros except the high air humidity in latter place) and therefore I have the chance to watch their habit closely. Female Phoenix flowers are not receptive for a long time notwithstanding that they keep their tiny  ball-like shape for some time before they either get aborted or transform to fruits. I do not recall seeing ever a CIDP actively blooming in my garden simultaneously with theos. Which cretan population do you consider the peloponnesian one to be closer to?

 

Hmmm, just to throw a spanner in the works... last year (2018) in the UK, my male Theophrasti and female Canariensis were both flowering at the same time. Although the Theophrasti did bloom around 3-4 weeks before the Canariensis. The Theophrasti appeared to pollenate the Canariensis (no other Phoenix's within at least 1 mile of me), but unfortunately the seed did not set properly and the fruit rotted. Possibly because it was the first year the Canariensis had actually flowered. Or possibly due to it being a wet August/September with storms. Either way something went wrong. But I can confirm that Theophrasti & Canariensis flowering overlapped here at 51N.

I don't know whether warmer, drier climates could affect flowering times though, so it may be different in Mediterranean regions.

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Phoenikakias
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

 

Hmmm, just to throw a spanner in the works... last year (2018) in the UK, my male Theophrasti and female Canariensis were both flowering at the same time. Although the Theophrasti did bloom around 3-4 weeks before the Canariensis. The Theophrasti appeared to pollenate the Canariensis (no other Phoenix's within at least 1 mile of me), but unfortunately the seed did not set properly and the fruit rotted. Possibly because it was the first year the Canariensis had actually flowered. Or possibly due to it being a wet August/September with storms. Either way something went wrong. But I can confirm that Theophrasti & Canariensis flowering overlapped here at 51N.

I don't know whether warmer, drier climates could affect flowering times though, so it may be different in Mediterranean regions.

Different climate yours, so conditions are not similar. Here CIDP's bloom at the end of winter to the start of spring and again at the end of summer.

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Yort
7 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

In Vayonia all palms are super tall, but the clump on the opposite to the road edge of the beach. I have gathered with a special seed collector fixed on a pole fruits from this clump, and indeed all fruits were unpollinated. But I pretty much doubt that this particular clump is  actually theophrasti! On the other hand I have discovered seeds beneath the twins and also a sprouted seedling, which seemed being a genuine theo as it had ultra hard textured strap leaves, beneath the plant inside the fence. It is self evident that I did not have the chance to search for seeds inside the fence. I have also found a seed beneath the female plant at the entrance of the taverna's front yard. Do you spend all winter and spring in Epidauros, so that you can confirm that blooming of CIDP's and Theos coincide? It happens so, that I cultivate both theos and CIDP in my garden in southern Attica (with a climate very similar to one of Epidauros except the high air humidity in latter place) and therefore I have the chance to watch their habit closely. Female Phoenix flowers are not receptive for a long time notwithstanding that they keep their tiny  ball-like shape for some time before they either get aborted or transform to fruits. I do not recall seeing ever a CIDP actively blooming in my garden simultaneously with theos. Which cretan population do you consider the peloponnesian one to be closer to?

It's a valid point you make about the simultaneous flowering times. I usually spent just a few days of the year in Epidavros so I don't know for sure if they flower simultaneous. Although if not, I don't know how else these fruits would be pollinated. Here is one of my hybrids, leaves are always a bit softer because of the greenhouse conditions.

IMG_20180928_123959.thumb.jpg.e7fb894c03

The bushy clump indeed seems to have some morphological differences. I would though still recognize it as theophrasti since the difference seems to be only in vegetative parts. Possibly a mutation of some sort triggered by inbreeding depression?

To say what Cretan population would be most closely related would be speculative and close to impossible without genetic evidence. To even try to compare them you should grow them in similar conditions. For all we know these palms could grow in Epidavros for 2500 years or longer, enough generations to differentiate from it's ancestors.

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Phoenikakias

Anyway, in a private discussion with Prof Diego Rivera, he mentioned the cretan population of Stahlis as being the most similar to peloponnesian population.  This man had visited all theophrasti wild stands and was arguing that the particular clump on the edge of the Vayonia beach was differing from the rest individuals because of the prevailing swampy conditions on this corner. I admit I have not been convinced. He further explained why there were two different kinds of seeds beneath the twins. Culprits are the birds, which carry CIDP fruits on the taller theos, where they can eat those fruits in safety. Btw Goelkoey population is not pure, while the stands in Bodrum and Phenike are.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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GaDawg

Here are two I bought from Kinzyjr a little over a month ago. The one on the right went in a bit of shock, but they are both going to pull through. 

 

My my only worry growing here in SE Georgia, is the amount of humidity they are going to get. 

537FB913-EBB8-4E4C-A3E1-71459968F9C0.jpeg

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kinzyjr

@GaDawg Wow, that's as bad as I've seen them shock from transplant, especially without being shipped bare root.  Is the spear pushing out new growth?

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GaDawg
1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

@GaDawg Wow, that's as bad as I've seen them shock from transplant, especially without being shipped bare root.  Is the spear pushing out new growth?

Yeah. The spear is pushing out green on bottom. 

I kept them inside for about three days, right after I transplanted them, to protect them from the cold. I put them inside the same room as the gas fireplace, and they didn’t get watered. I was out of town. 

Bu, yeah, they arrived in beautiful condition. Unfortunately I didn’t do them any favors. 

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Yort
On 9-1-2019 08:56:22, Phoenikakias said:

Anyway, in a private discussion with Prof Diego Rivera, he mentioned the cretan population of Stahlis as being the most similar to peloponnesian population.  This man had visited all theophrasti wild stands and was arguing that the particular clump on the edge of the Vayonia beach was differing from the rest individuals because of the prevailing swampy conditions on this corner. I admit I have not been convinced. He further explained why there were two different kinds of seeds beneath the twins. Culprits are the birds, which carry CIDP fruits on the taller theos, where they can eat those fruits in safety. Btw Goelkoey population is not pure, while the stands in Bodrum and Phenike are.

Prof Diego Rivera could be right about the similarity of the population at Stahlis. Do you know if he made any measurements or just a visual comparison?

Last week conditions were indeed very swampy on vagionia, there was actually a flowing river. but the soil was also completely soaked and just as swampy near the large triple palm. So for me this does not explain the morphological differences and my guess would be in the genetics.

I talked to the owner of the two large palms within the fence. The very nice gentlemen is in his 60’s and said that he planted these two palms himself about 40 years ago. He explained that they were actually lateral shoots from the triple palm. If this is true they would genetically be the same. He told a story about his grandfather which told him that these palms were very old. He also said that he did not like the canariensis palms because they get sick much easier and that he is using pesticides to treat them for the weevil.


The Golkoy palms are indeed very different to all other theophrasti I am growing. Here is an interesting project study about the Turkish palms; I would be very interested in the molecular study they intend to do.

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Conservation-Biology-and-Population-Genetic-of-Tertiary-Relict-Phoenix-theophrasti-Datca-Date-Palm

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RJ

Here are two I received from Kinzyjr as well. They’ve been growing just fine. 

 

7AA01EF8-2047-4142-A2B4-345FECF7C143.jpeg

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