Beccariophoenix winter protection

[Tropicdoc]

Wrapped up my 2 alfies based on Walt’s experience in central Florida with cocos. Well see how it goes....

[Tropicdoc]

[enigma99]

I think unless you’re dipping into the upper 20s you should be fine?

[gilles06]

I wont use a plastic protection without air circulation for a long period. It would let humidity inside and could have fungus acitivity...

Salut

[PalmatierMeg]

9 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Don't let plastic come in direct contact with palms. Plastic can conduct cold to any parts that come in contact with it. I suggest you wrap the palm in blankets, movers' quilts, cotton flannel sheets or fleece. Then cover those with plastic if winter precipitation is expected.

[sonoranfans]

Seems a bit premature, expecting a freeze?  How long can you leave a palm wrapped like that without killing it?  I would wait till the cold is on the way n the forecast.

[Walt]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Don't let plastic come in direct contact with palms. Plastic can conduct cold to any parts that come in contact with it. I suggest you wrap the palm in blankets, movers' quilts, cotton flannel sheets or fleece. Then cover those with plastic if winter precipitation is expected.

I absolutely concur with Meg. Plastic is a conductor of heat, and should never contact palm/plant foliage.

I use PVC tarps to wrap palms -- after I first wrap them with flannel cotton sheets. The PVC tarp just prevents frost (actually frozen dew) from forming on the sheets. Plus, the dew, when it starts forming on the sheets after sundown starts to soak the sheets, then everything freezes once the ambient temperature drops to 32 degrees. But plastic is a much more efficient conductor of heat than a cotton sheet. Again, plastic/poly sheet is fine as long as it doesn't directly contact foliage. I make PVC tents (with a heat source in the tent) to keep certain tropical plants/short palms.

I would leave the palm bundled all day long (for sunlight and photosynthesis), then quickly multi wrap it with a sheet just before sundown, then put the plastic over it (where you can just slide it up or down off the palm. If you have a prolonged cold spell, then just leave the everything in place.

But if your temperatures are forecast (this winter) to drop down to 20 degrees, upper teens, I would wrap the bundled palm with a multi wrapped flannel sheet, then spirally wind some outdoor string lights around the sheets -- then install the plastic. The string lights should provide enough heat to keep the palm above 25 degrees, if you use enough lights. I use EasyHeat heating cables rated at 7 watts/ lineal feet, and they definitely keep my palms from freezing. I've used this method on adonidia, alexandrea, coconut, S. schizophylla, and others.

I really need to make a YouTube video of all the cold protection techniques I've used over the past 20 years. Cocooning a palm using heating cables, insulative wraps, or making crude tents with a heat source are the two best methods of cold protection I've found. I construct my tents down and dirty. Nothing expensive of elaborate -- just quick and efficient. 

One last point.  Wrapping a palm, but without using some kind of supplemental heat (like heating cable, string lights) will basically provide no warming advantage to the palm, only protection from frost, as the palm's core temperature will assume ambient air temperature around it very quickly. By sunrise the palm will be just as cold as the air around it. However, I've found that a wrapped palm can take more cold (maybe five degrees more) of cold before foliage damage occurs, due to frost. The wrapping will keep the frost off the foliage. So, a properly wrapped palm will fare far better than an exposed palm.

[Tropicdoc]

Thanks for all the comments. I have learned a lot from palmtalk. ...

thats not plastic your seeing it’s bubble foil insulation. It does not conduct heat and is waterproof. Our cold fronts are invariably preceded by rain. 

There is a freeze warning for tonight and tomorrow night will be 36 so most probably frost again

i will not leave the palms like  this I will unwrap it once the cold is past

i use easy heat just like Walt

 

[PalmatierMeg]

If I were you I would still wrap the palm in fabric before installing the bubble wrap, which in my eyes, is just two layers of plastic with a bit of air between. It is still early in the winter in LA but I concur with Walt that you need to provide a heat source by the time your lows drop into the upper 20s. Don't play Russian roulette with weather predictions. Forecasters need only be off by a few degrees or a few miles and your palm may be torched.

[Tropicdoc]

I guess the only down side of fabric would be if it got wet it would hold moisture and the weight of it could crush the palm. Probably would try to find a fleece blanket. I guess you also have to worry about flammability of a blanket that you use...

[Tropicdoc]

Just read about bubble foil.... it’s r value is 1 

[Tropicdoc]

Walt do you use self regulating cables?

donyou worry about crossing the cable on itself?

[PalmatierMeg]

1. You can cover fabric with bubble wrap/plastic when rain is expected.

2. If you use the right lights the right way they won't produce enough heat to start a fire or cook the palm. Don't use old fashioned C9 Christmas type bulbs. You can also use special heat cables instead of lights. I don't know anything about those because I don't need them here.

3. Your goal as Walt mentioned is to protect the meristem of the palm even at the expense of foliage.

4. If rain isn't expected, you can set up clamp-style shop lights around the wrapped palm and aim them toward the meristem area. I used shop lights and a step ladder to focus radiant heat toward my Licuala grandis one bitter cold light years ago.

You may have to get creative but now is the time to start thinking. Keeping your alfie's meristem even a couple degrees above freezing can make the difference.

[Tyrone]

Alfredii is a tough palm. How cold do you expect to get?

[Tropicdoc]

1 hour ago, Tyrone said:

Alfredii is a tough palm. How cold do you expect to get?

I’ve lived here for 8 years. I’ve had 1 10a winter and 1 8b winter. But usually cold, wet 9b

[Walt]

6 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Thanks for all the comments. I have learned a lot from palmtalk. ...

thats not plastic your seeing it’s bubble foil insulation. It does not conduct heat and is waterproof. Our cold fronts are invariably preceded by rain. 

There is a freeze warning for tonight and tomorrow night will be 36 so most probably frost again

i will not leave the palms like  this I will unwrap it once the cold is past

i use easy heat just like Walt

 

Be careful with the EasyHeat cables. I've scorched palm crown shafts (adonidia palm) and leaves and petioles (on my coconut palm) if the cables run too long (like all night long). While the cables don't run hot where you can't touch them, for some reason the cables will transfer too much heat into the leaves and petioles over a long period of time. So, in the case of your B. alfredi, I would first wrap the fronds with a multiple wraps of sheet, then spirally wind the cables around it, then install bubble foil insulation. Also, don't ever overlap the cables onto themselves, or they will eventually melt through and short out the cable. I did that once. The manufacture says not to do this when you wrap the cables around outdoor water pipes, which is the intended use of the cables.

Your palm shouldn't be cold damaged at all this winter. I've wrapped my adonida palm (like you are doing) and it wasn't hurt at all, even when my low was 20 degrees back in December of 2010.

[Walt]

3 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Walt do you use self regulating cables?

donyou worry about crossing the cable on itself?

My EasyHeat cables are rated to activate at 38 degrees F and to shut off at 45 degrees. Yes, do not overlap/cross the cables over each other, or they will eventually get two warm and melt, shorting out the cable.

I've learned much over the past 20 years in cold protection, by trial and error.

Below are four photos of how I protected my adonidia palm back in December of 2010. First photo shows palm before protection. Second photo shows fronds cinched up and bundled. Third photo shows where I wrapped the palm with insulation blanket, then spirally winded heating cable around it. Fourth photo shows how I than installed an outer insulation blanket to help hold the heat in from the heating cables. Now, if I was concerned about wet due, rain, frost, etc., I would install a water proof PVC tarp over that.

Also, I stood up a 1" diameter PVC pipe (tied it to the palm) to help support the static weight of all the coverings.

After the freeze I removed the wraps and cables -- and admired my unhurt adonidia palm!

 

[Walt]

Here's a photo of my adonida palm after I unwrapped it on 12-29-2010 -- three days after I wrapped it. Note the date stamps on my photos. The fronds are a little messed up, but are a healthy green, not toasty brown.

[Walt]

20 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Just read about bubble foil.... it’s r value is 1 

Then, I wouldn't even bother with the bubble foil, other than the water proof qualities of it.

You could go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy a 48" x 96" by 1" thick foam panel wall board insulation, and make a rectangular box to slip right over your B. alfredi. A sheet is only about $20, and it's closed cell, so it won't absorb water.  It has an R-value of 5. 

Years ago I had a large roll of foil backed fiberglass tank insulation. I think it had an R-value of around 7.

[Fusca]

20 years ago when I lived in Tyler, Texas (zone 8a) there were some tall Washys planted in a commercial landscape.  Every winter there would be a cold event dropping temps into the teens and they would tie up the fronds and wrap the 20' trunks all the way from the ground to the crown with large rolls of foil backed fiberglass insulation.  Every year the palms would come back and I wondered how much this really helped - it appeared to help since these were the only ones around town that I was aware of.  If nothing else seeing the palms wrapped up clued me in on the upcoming cold weather if I missed a forecast! 

[Tropicdoc]

On 11/14/2018, 4:23:20, Tyrone said:

 

5 hours ago, Walt said:

Then, I wouldn't even bother with the bubble foil, other than the water proof qualities of it.

You could go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy a 48" x 96" by 1" thick foam panel wall board insulation, and make a rectangular box to slip right over your B. alfredi. A sheet is only about $20, and it's closed cell, so it won't absorb water.  It has an R-value of 5. 

Years ago I had a large roll of foil backed fiberglass tank insulation. I think it had an R-value of around 7.

You know I’ve thought about the foam box before like a giant ice chest . Just harder to store in my shed during summer. I’d imagine a single c9 bulb on the ground inside of the box would raise the temp 10 degrees above ambient.

the hot water tank roll is a no go it will  get wet and soggy 

[Walt]

2 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

 

Just buy the foam board, cut it to the size of box (multiple panels) then tape the panels together. Then, when winter is over, use box cutter knife to cut the tape and just store the flat panels (rather than bulky box).

 

[Tropicdoc]

1 hour ago, Walt said:

Just buy the foam board, cut it to the size of box (multiple panels) then tape the panels together. Then, when winter is over, use box cutter knife to cut the tape and just store the flat panels (rather than bulky box).

 

Yep. Good up to an 8’foot palm. Then shift to meristem only protection.

[Walt]

22 hours ago, Fusca said:

20 years ago when I lived in Tyler, Texas (zone 8a) there were some tall Washys planted in a commercial landscape.  Every winter there would be a cold event dropping temps into the teens and they would tie up the fronds and wrap the 20' trunks all the way from the ground to the crown with large rolls of foil backed fiberglass insulation.  Every year the palms would come back and I wondered how much this really helped - it appeared to help since these were the only ones around town that I was aware of.  If nothing else seeing the palms wrapped up clued me in on the upcoming cold weather if I missed a forecast! 

IMO, wrapping a palm's trunk and fronds -- and leaving the wrappings on all winter long -- does virtually nothing for the palm with respect to keeping it warmer.

Insulation only slows down heat flow. If an object that doesn't produce heat (like plants, palms, trees) there's no heat to be lost or slowed down.

A human gives off heat. If a human goes out into 25 degree weather and is nude, they lose body heat very, very fast and their body temperature drops. If the human dresses with lots of layers of insulative clothing, the clothing slows down the heat loss from their bodies to where the body can produce more heat than it loses -- and the human stays warm.

The only way insulation can help a palm is if the palm was warm, then it was wrapped. That is, say the palm was exposed to direct sunlight all day long during a cold winter day. The palm will absorb a certain amount of radiant sun heat. If at the end of the day the palm was wrapped with insulation, the insulation would help to keep the heat in the palm trunk from flowing out into the colder air around it (heat always travels from hot to cold). I do this with my coconut palm. I've felt the south side of the trunk at the end of a sunny day, and it is discernibly warm. I then wrap the trunk with mover's quilts or old mattress covers to help hold in the heat as long as possible.

Also, covering a palm frond/leaves with insulation, while not providing heat, it will help keep the foliage from cold dry wind desiccation. 

Over many winters I've wrapped palm trunks, but I had heating cables wound around the trunks, and the insulation helps keep the heat from flowing away from the trunk.

But just wrapping a palm's trunk with insulation without also applying some supplemental heat, I would like a physicist to explain to me how it will benefit the palm.

 

[Fusca]

7 minutes ago, Walt said:

IMO, wrapping a palm's trunk and fronds -- and leaving the wrappings on all winter long -- does virtually nothing for the palm with respect to keeping it warmer.

That makes sense Walt.  I never saw the palms in Tyler get wrapped so maybe they had something else in there besides the insulation.  Or it provided little benefit.  Most of my palms do not need much winter protection, but the times I do wrap I usually add a string of lights to add some heat.  What you did with your adonidia palm is very similar to what I did with a queen palm this past January except I used lights.  It resulted in zero leaf burn after 19-20º temps. and it was protected like this only 2 nights.

[Walt]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

That makes sense Walt.  I never saw the palms in Tyler get wrapped so maybe they had something else in there besides the insulation.  Or it provided little benefit.  Most of my palms do not need much winter protection, but the times I do wrap I usually add a string of lights to add some heat.  What you did with your adonidia palm is very similar to what I did with a queen palm this past January except I used lights.  It resulted in zero leaf burn after 19-20º temps. and it was protected like this only 2 nights.

I also use string lights. I have a small adonidia palm about 40 feet away from my big one next to the corner of my house. I used string lights on that one, as I ran out of heating cables. These were only the mini light lights, but I used lots of strings of them. Even these small mini lights give off heat. The key is that I used lots of flannel sheets (after bundling the palm tight) and made about 6-7 layers of wraps. That provided excellent insulation. It doesn't take all that much supplemental heat if you use lots of good insulation.

Based on my own empirical observations and testing, I certainly believe your queen palm suffered zero leaf burn after 10-20 degrees low, based on how you protected it.

[Tropicdoc]

Walt, I completely agree that wrapping without heat does nothing.

What is your experience with string lights vs heat cables? Does one burn foliage and the other doesn't? What about rope lights? Maybe the plastic around the rope lights diffuses the heat.

I have a self regulating heat cable. I was hoping that might prevent burn and I don't have to worry about accidentally crossing the cable on itself.

I can attest that string lights produce good heat. I had a small palm wrapped in my infamous bubble foil and threw a string of 50 lights in there and it got downright hot inside.

[Tropicdoc]

Been thinking about building the foam box but I think it will be too hard to secure it from wind. Thinking of doing flannel-heat cable- flannel- plastic. What do you think, Walt?

[Walt]

23 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Walt, I completely agree that wrapping without heat does nothing.

What is your experience with string lights vs heat cables? Does one burn foliage and the other doesn't? What about rope lights? Maybe the plastic around the rope lights diffuses the heat.

I have a self regulating heat cable. I was hoping that might prevent burn and I don't have to worry about accidentally crossing the cable on itself.

I can attest that string lights produce good heat. I had a small palm wrapped in my infamous bubble foil and threw a string of 50 lights in there and it got downright hot inside.

I know others have burned foliage using the old C-5 incandescent bulb string lights, where the bulb contacted the foliage. The heat is just too intense after a while. I've never used C-5 bulb lights, only the mini lights. And I only used the mini lights on a small adonidia palm, like I said earlier. I used about 150 mini light bulbs under multiple wraps of flannel sheets.

I think the rope lights (I've never used them) would help defuse the heat since the heat would tend to travel across the plastic housing the lights. Not sure how many BTU of heat a string of rope lights would put out. I think one watt is equal to about 3.4 BTU/hour. My heating cables are rated 7 watts/lineal feet. A 40 cable is equal to 280 watts. 

When you say your heating cable is self regulating, how is it regulating? My heating cables integral thermostat turns my cables on at 38 degrees and leaves them on until the temperature rises to 45 degrees.

I found when using heating cables, it's best to first wrap the palm with a sheet, then install the cables, then wrap more sheets over the cables. Keeping the cables off foliage is the best bet, otherwise, after running all night the cables are going to scorch the foliage. I've scorched the petioles on my coconut palm with my cables, so I put a terry cloth town or rags, etc., where ever the cable would contact a petiole. I install the towels and rags first where I know I'm going to loop the cables around. I don't cover the trunk first, as the cables have nerver hurt the trunk, only green petioles and foliage.

[Walt]

5 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

Been thinking about building the foam box but I think it will be too hard to secure it from wind. Thinking of doing flannel-heat cable- flannel- plastic. What do you think, Walt?

The size of you palm now, it should be very easy to quickly protect it. I would just get one or two 1" PVC pipe (or wood furring strip, etc.) and cut them just longer than the top of your bundled palm, then push the pipes down between your bungee cords to hold the pipes vertical. Then I would take a king sized flannel sheet and put it over the pole and wrap the sheet several times around the palm (the pipes hold the static weight of the sheets). Use a spring clothespin to secure the sheet once wrapped tightly. Then install the heating cable spirally around the palm, careful not letting any part of he cable to overlap/touch another part. Then use a second sheet to make more wraps over the cable. Now your palm is cocooned. I don't see how you palm could be cold damaged after such a wrapping. I know mine were never hurt. 

But since your palm has no trunk, I guess you might have to figure a way to support the PVC pipes in event it gets windy and wants to blow and bend the pipes and palm over. Since the palms I wrap have trunks, the trunks keep the PVC pipe upright.

[Tropicdoc]

Wealth of knowledge! Thanks! Supposedly the self regulating cables stop heating at different areas along the length once the temp rises either from ambient or from the cable itself. And subsequently they can be crossed on itself

[Tropicdoc]

[Walt]

I read the manufacturer's specs on your heating cable. Self regulating means they turn on at 37 degrees and turn off at 50 degrees. They are only rated at 3 watts/LF. If that's the case, then your cable will be less likely to scorch foliage (mine are rated 7 watts/LF. If your cables can be crossed (and the graphic shows that), that's good. Mine can't be crossed. I learned the hard way. I inadvertently crossed them and the cables melted where crossed and shorted out.

https://www.amazon.com/HEATIT-30-feet-Regulating-Pre-assembled-Heating/dp/B07331J2J8/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1542505790&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=easyheat+cables&psc=1

 

My cables are shown on page 9 of 116: https://www.emerson.com/documents/commercial-residential/easyheat-residential-commercial-solutions-catalog-en-2125080.pdf

 

[GottmitAlex]

3 minutes ago, Walt said:

I read the manufacturer's specs on your heating cable. Self regulating means they turn on at 37 degrees and turn off at 50 degrees. They are only rated at 3 watts/LF. If that's the case, then your cable will be less likely to scorch foliage (mine are rated 7 watts/LF. If your cables can be crossed (and the graphic shows that), that's good. Mine can't be crossed. I learned the hard way. I inadvertently crossed them and the cables melted where crossed and shorted out.

https://www.amazon.com/HEATIT-30-feet-Regulating-Pre-assembled-Heating/dp/B07331J2J8/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1542505790&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=easyheat+cables&psc=1

 

My cables are shown on page 9 of 116: https://www.emerson.com/documents/commercial-residential/easyheat-residential-commercial-solutions-catalog-en-2125080.pdf

 

Walt knows his stuff.

Thank you.

[maxum2610]

I use these fleece jackets for palm and bananas. Good results down to -10C and more. They come in different sizes (this is the largest). Search for mammoth plant jacket.

[Phoenikakias]

I had used antifrost cloth (that is breathable garment) to cover my tripple alfredii two years ago. It was really in need only for a couple of days but it remained on all winter long (because I was not sure what rest of winter would turn out). Absolutely no issues with fungi, it seems that this sp is very tolerant of very high air humidity unlike for example Thrinax radiata, which under identical circumstances perished.

[Tropicdoc]

Here’s a trial run for tonight. There are no heat cables.... it’s only supposed to be 35. But with no air moving we will probably have frost.

[Tropicdoc]

Well my photos are too big to post 

[GottmitAlex]

Just now, Tropicdoc said:

Here’s a trial run for tonight. There are no heat cables.... it’s only supposed to be 35. But with no air moving we will probably have frost.

I am sure it will have no issues whatsoever with those temps. Frost or no frost. The problem, I have read, is that in humid, cold 9a temps, Alfies kick the proverbial bucket. However, I  don't think many in that zone have protected them during their juvenile stage... it may just be they harden up to withstand a humid, cold 9a zone. (Eastern Texas onward.)

Just my 2c.

Best of luck

[Tyrone]

No need to protect an Alfie at 35F. They are way tougher than that.