Florida coconuts

[CocoMtl]

I have noticed that some tall coconut-palm cultivars still appear in southeastern Florida, where lethal yellowing (LY) killed almost all the Jamaican talls in the 1970s and 80s.  For example, both Lummus park and Crandon park in Miami/Key Biscayne have large numbers of what appear to be Jamaican talls.  I was wondering how these palms are able to survive given the ever-present threat of LY?  Are they all inoculated by antibiotics, or am I confusing Maypans for Jamaican talls?  The coconut palms in Crandon Park look rather wild, so I'd be surprised if all of them are routinely inoculated.

[kinzyjr]

There are Jamaican Talls that have survived the plague.  They might be part of a small percentage of Jamaican Talls that are resistant or they may be receiving injections... if they are, in fact, Jamaican Talls.  I hear there are a lot of them on Hutchinson Island, but I've not been there myself.  Show a picture and a few of our eagle-eyed coconut fans will probably be able to tell you the variety.

[CocoMtl]

Being a coconut lover from the great white north (Montreal), the best I can do is copy and paste a couple images from Google Maps.  The first is from Crandon Park (Key Biscayne) and the second is from Lummus Park (Miami).  Are these Jamaican Talls, Pacific Talls, or Maypans?  I've heard the Lummus Park coconuts are inoculated Jamaican Talls but I'm not sure about Crandon Park.

[Sandy Loam]

Crandon Park may look "wild," but I believe it was a coconut plantation a century ago. There may be places in southern Florida where coconuts washed ashore and began growing wild, but Crandon Park is not it.

As for inoculation, I cannot comment, but there are many people on this forum who could.  I am also not very good at telling apart the various "tall" varieties of coconut trees.  However, I understand that there are a number of "tall" species which are resistant to lethal yellowing disease, despite popular belief.  I have been told that only a couple of them are semi-readily available in the nursery trade, but they do exist.  Whether the relics of the old "tall" coconuts  found in random patches around southern Florida could be anything other than Jamaican Talls is unknown to me ( e.g. see patches in the counties of Collier, Lee, Monroe, Dade, Palm Beach and Broward).  I suspect that the trees which you've referenced likely are Jamaican Talls because that is what would  have been available fifty or sixty years ago. However, I defer to the PalmTalk experts who have a real eye for the various coconut species.  ZEETH, for example, could tell you all about the rare and not-so-rare types of "tall" coconut tree which are resistant to lethal yellowing.  I cannot.

 

[RedRabbit]

4 hours ago, CocoMtl said:

Being a coconut lover from the great white north (Montreal), the best I can do is copy and paste a couple images from Google Maps.  The first is from Crandon Park (Key Biscayne) and the second is from Lummus Park (Miami).  Are these Jamaican Talls, Pacific Talls, or Maypans?  I've heard the Lummus Park coconuts are inoculated Jamaican Talls but I'm not sure about Crandon Park.

Those actually aren't all that big. Believe it or not, the ones I saw in Phuket are about twice as tall by comparison. Unfortunately I haven't seen anything in Florida even close. 

Here are a couple examples: 

https://www.google.com/maps/@7.7925741,98.3344442,3a,75y,271.52h,103.52t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPqPh1XILIsVxQ3Y1JLaYjA2ZsOeFzH-lCWVpuy!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPqPh1XILIsVxQ3Y1JLaYjA2ZsOeFzH-lCWVpuy%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi0-ya332.20825-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352

https://www.google.com/maps/@7.7978311,98.3368591,3a,75y,11.36h,116.66t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNuMpcPFcBypV_CaSYBxsQzPGr_9wbNZ5i1aVwh!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNuMpcPFcBypV_CaSYBxsQzPGr_9wbNZ5i1aVwh%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya49.27416-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352

Edited October 24, 2018 by RedRabbit

[kinzyjr]

I fall into the same boat as @Sandy Loam regarding ID.  @Zeeth is very good at noticing the differences.  Just so you have a basis for comparison, the first picture on one of Zeeth's travel logs shows the Jamaican Talls at Gizella Kopsick Palm Arboretum: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/21028-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/

You can see how full and spherical the crowns are for sure.

[Zeeth]

11 hours ago, CocoMtl said:

Being a coconut lover from the great white north (Montreal), the best I can do is copy and paste a couple images from Google Maps.  The first is from Crandon Park (Key Biscayne) and the second is from Lummus Park (Miami).  Are these Jamaican Talls, Pacific Talls, or Maypans?  I've heard the Lummus Park coconuts are inoculated Jamaican Talls but I'm not sure about Crandon Park.

All the palms in those pics are Maypans. There are a few Jamaican talls at Lummus Park though, which I've circled in these pictures:

 

I don't know if they inoculate, but there are Jamaican talls in South Florida still that survived LY, they just aren't as common as Maypans. Supposedly these are somewhat resistant now after surviving the LY onslaught, but I haven't seen much data in the literature about this. Panama talls are also found in South Florida, and are more resistant. Most of these came to Florida through the Jamaican coconut industry board after doing well in Jamaica through LY. I don't think there's enough data about Hawaiian talls in the state to know if they're resistant or not. There is a single Nawasi tall from Sri Lanka at Fairchild that was planted in the 20's and seems to be LY resistant. I've grown a few of these from seeds to donate to botanical gardens here on the west coast of Florida.

[Missi]

There is a super tall pair of what are suspected to be JTs in my office parking lot (super old buildings/landscape for Naples standards). I nabbed one of their babies the other day 

 

[CocoMtl]

Many thanks to Zeeth, Kinzyjr, and Sandy Loam for your informative responses!  Based on Zeeth's palm ids, it seems that I was in fact mistaking Maypans for Jamaican talls.  Unfortunately I am too young to have witnessed the heyday of Jamaican Talls in south Florida, because Maypans and dwarf cultivars seem to be an inferior substitute (in my view).  Just a follow-up question, for all those still paying attention: are Maypans in fact more resistant to LY than Jamaican Talls in Florida?  From what I read about recent trials in Jamaica, the resistance of Maypans isn't much better than that of Jamaican Talls.  But maybe Jamaica puts more pressure on coconuts due to their use of plantations for industrial production.  If, in fact, Maypans have similar LY resistance as Jamaican Talls, they would seem to have little value.

[kinzyjr]

@CocoMtl There are some publications that say they are, and there are some that say that they aren't.  I grow Jamaican Talls, a Green Malayan Dwarf, and a Maypan.  Hopefully I won't have to I prefer the look of the Jamaican Tall, but if you're a coconut farmer, you prefer the dwarfs because the coconuts are much easier to harvest for several years.  There are hundreds of varieties, and some of them have very colorful fruit that definitely add some much needed color to the coconut growing scene.  Red Spicata is one such cultivar that really stands out to my eye.

[Zeeth]

39 minutes ago, CocoMtl said:

Many thanks to Zeeth, Kinzyjr, and Sandy Loam for your informative responses!  Based on Zeeth's palm ids, it seems that I was in fact mistaking Maypans for Jamaican talls.  Unfortunately I am too young to have witnessed the heyday of Jamaican Talls in south Florida, because Maypans and dwarf cultivars seem to be an inferior substitute (in my view).  Just a follow-up question, for all those still paying attention: are Maypans in fact more resistant to LY than Jamaican Talls in Florida?  From what I read about recent trials in Jamaica, the resistance of Maypans isn't much better than that of Jamaican Talls.  But maybe Jamaica puts more pressure on coconuts due to their use of plantations for industrial production.  If, in fact, Maypans have similar LY resistance as Jamaican Talls, they would seem to have little value.

Maypans were originally thought to have much higher resistance, but more updated trials have shown this to be untrue. Maypans aren't actually made anymore, and haven't been for sometime, but people grow the offspring of the existing Maypans pretty often, which leads to a less uniform palm. Most people don't care enough to distinguish between the different varieties in Florida when planting, so we end up with mostly Malayans and the offspring of Maypans. 

[Zeeth]

Here's an example of a Panama tall if you want to see what they look like:

[GottmitAlex]

The atlantic/Jamaican cultivars stand out from the rest due to their having a full crown.  

[Cluster]

Jamaican talls look awesome. There are still good reasons to have dwarfs as well. They don't grow as much, usually produce more fruit and their water is considered the best one, they are also self bearing and can also have a spherical crown, look at these Brazilian green dwarfs for example:

 

Regarding LY I wonder why everyone forgot about Fiji Green Dwarfs, those do resist consistently when they are true to type! They are also even smaller than normal dwarfs but have the characteristic trunk of talls, they don't self pollinate though. 

 

[RedRabbit]

Looks like Naples actually has quite a few tall coconuts:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1384088,-81.8056144,3a,75y,270.48h,114.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc7pNoysGnVfh0uFN0HAz0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[CocoMtl]

On 11/1/2018, 2:41:41, RedRabbit said:

Looks like Naples actually has quite a few tall coconuts:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1384088,-81.8056144,3a,75y,270.48h,114.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc7pNoysGnVfh0uFN0HAz0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

On 10/24/2018, 3:05:33, Zeeth said:

Here's an example of a Panama tall if you want to see what they look like:

Hi @Zeeth, thanks for sending the picture of the Panama Tall.  Any idea why Panama Talls look so unhealthy in Florida?  I've seen other specimens that look similar or worse than this one.  Are they less cold-tolerant or maybe dislike the soil?  Also, how does one distinguish between Panama Tall and Maypans?

[CocoMtl]

On 11/1/2018, 2:41:41, RedRabbit said:

Looks like Naples actually has quite a few tall coconuts:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1384088,-81.8056144,3a,75y,270.48h,114.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc7pNoysGnVfh0uFN0HAz0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hi @RedRabbit, I totally agree.  I've heard that Lethal Yellowing took some time to make its way to Florida's west coast, so when it arrived they were better prepared.  I see a lot of healthy Jamaican Talls in Naples and Fort Myers.  But with the constant threat of LY, I'm not sure if most of these would survive without antibiotic inoculation.  Any idea?

[Zeeth]

1 hour ago, CocoMtl said:

Hi @Zeeth, thanks for sending the picture of the Panama Tall.  Any idea why Panama Talls look so unhealthy in Florida?  I've seen other specimens that look similar or worse than this one.  Are they less cold-tolerant or maybe dislike the soil?  Also, how does one distinguish between Panama Tall and Maypans?

They have a different growth habit, but they're perfectly healthy.  There are ways to distinguish the Panama tall and Maypan, but it's hard to describe without seeing a lot of each. Panama tall is not a common variety though, so if you see one that looks similar to the Panama tall, it's likely a Maypan. 

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

these might me JT as well

[RedRabbit]

11 hours ago, CocoMtl said:

Hi @RedRabbit, I totally agree.  I've heard that Lethal Yellowing took some time to make its way to Florida's west coast, so when it arrived they were better prepared.  I see a lot of healthy Jamaican Talls in Naples and Fort Myers.  But with the constant threat of LY, I'm not sure if most of these would survive without antibiotic inoculation.  Any idea?

Sorry, no idea. I'm not very familiar with the details of LY in Florida history. 

5 hours ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

these might me JT as well

I'm guessing Bokeelia?

[PalmTreeDude]

I am not good with telling the difference between coconut varieties, but here is one that in person looked really tall in West Palm Beach, Florida. 

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

9 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Sorry, no idea. I'm not very familiar with the details of LY in Florida history. 

I'm guessing Bokeelia?

yep

[redant]

I have a Jamaican tall sprouted from seed from parents on a property next to me. The parents have since died of LY. They where stunning palms on the property. Mine after about 15 years has fruited many times and I now have about a dozen in the ground and 30 or so in pots. Really one of the most beautiful coconuts imo. I don't have St. Augustine grass in my back yard, I have read the bug that spreads LY likes that grass.

You ever make it by this way Zeeth I have a JT for ya.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by redant

[Missi]

Just took this pic yesterday evening as I was leaving my office 

[CocoMtl]

23 minutes ago, Missi said:

Just took this pic yesterday evening as I was leaving my office 

That looks like a beautiful JT, @Missi!

[bubba]

Town of Palm Beach innoculates and Jamaican Talls are ubiquitous and flourish. Having witnessed the havoc created throughout SF in the late 1970’s-early 1980’s, LY is no longer a problem of major proportions. That stated, I constantly read commentary to the contrary together with large numbers of other palms that are suggested to be “highly likely to be afflicted with LY” that are simply not. These include but are not limited to Addonida merrelli (sp),, which are ubiquitous, Prichardia thrustonia and even numerous Phoenix. Bottom-line LY had it’s run in SE Florida in the late 70’s-early 80’s and at this time it is been and gone. Sadly, it migrated to Naples later (90’s?), when I thought that area had missed the bullet.

This comes from what I view with my own eyes and not books. It is irritating to constantly read admonitions of the horrible LY plague, that was indeed gruesome, but no longer rules the roost. Fortunately, those days have past.

 

 

[PalmTreeDude]

Does Florida have its own variety of Coconut palm? 

Edited November 8, 2018 by PalmTreeDude

[Sandy Loam]

Bubba, please post photos of some gorgeous Jamaican Talls in the Town of Palm Beach.  Thanks.

[GottmitAlex]

4 hours ago, bubba said:

Town of Palm Beach innoculates and Jamaican Talls are ubiquitous and flourish. Having witnessed the havoc created throughout SF in the late 1970’s-early 1980’s, LY is no longer a problem of major proportions. That stated, I constantly read commentary to the contrary together with large numbers of other palms that are suggested to be “highly likely to be afflicted with LY” that are simply not. These include but are not limited to Addonida merrelli (sp),, which are ubiquitous, Prichardia thrustonia and even numerous Phoenix. Bottom-line LY had it’s run in SE Florida in the late 70’s-early 80’s and at this time it is been and gone. Sadly, it migrated to Naples later (90’s?), when I thought that area had missed the bullet.

This comes from what I view with my own eyes and not books. It is irritating to constantly read admonitions of the horrible LY plague, that was indeed gruesome, but no longer rules the roost. Fortunately, those days have past.

 

 

What what? Adonida merrelli are highly likely to be afflicted with LY? 

Please expound on your statement...

[kinzyjr]

7 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Does Florida have its own variety of Coconut palm? 

They aren't native here, but Jamaican Tall is as close as it gets. 

The old shipwreck story: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtomics/httpblogsscientificamericancomthoughtomics20110801coconuts-not-indigenous-but-quite-at-home-nevertheless/

[bubba]

Sandy, please stroll through my numerous picture posts dating back to 2007 in voluminous posts. Jamaican Talls are ubiquitous and not just in PB.

Alex, review numerous palm related literature (books, Palmpedia and even on this website), which consistently play the caveat “highly sensitive to LY”. The Manilian, Christmas Palm, AM is consistently listed as “highly LY sensitive”. I have never seen a Manilian effected by LY and it is ubiquitous in this area and throughout SF. I do not believe these palms play well in SC. This is somewhat of a rant and I apologize but having watched the carnage of LY throughout SF in late 70’s-early 80’s, It brings back horrible memories of devastation that does not exist today.

Kinzy you hit the motherload regarding the Providencia! The ship also contained a  very large cache of wine, which iniated a heavy bender for the early residents and crew of the ship in addition to the coconut s. It was also speculated that this was an early bout of insurance fraud and orchestrated by the crew of the Providencia!

[Sandy Loam]

Bubba, I found one of your Palm Beach Jamaican Tall coconut photos here:

 

 

Nice photo!

[Sandy Loam]

Click to enlarge

[bubba]

Thank you Sandy.

[GottmitAlex]

Wunderbar! Jamaican/Atlantic  talls, as presented in your pics, present a full crown:360 degrees. 

 

[bubba]

Thank you Alex. My great Forum friend from SD, who no longer posts, Epicure, commented that those Jamaicans were too tightly trimmed. I do not think people from other areas understand that coconuts and excess leaflets have to be removed because of hurricanes.

I can still remember as a young one looking out of a  small crack during a hurricane and seeing a coconut smash into the windshield of a parked car. Cannon Ball!

[bubba]

One last detail. The 20,000 coconuts on the Providencia were not from Jamaica but from Trinidad. Accordingly, I guess they should properly be referred to as Trinidad Talls although large numbers throughout SF came from Jamaica.

[CocoMtl]

On 11/8/2018, 8:24:32, bubba said:

Sandy, please stroll through my numerous picture posts dating back to 2007 in voluminous posts. Jamaican Talls are ubiquitous and not just in PB.

Alex, review numerous palm related literature (books, Palmpedia and even on this website), which consistently play the caveat “highly sensitive to LY”. The Manilian, Christmas Palm, AM is consistently listed as “highly LY sensitive”. I have never seen a Manilian effected by LY and it is ubiquitous in this area and throughout SF. I do not believe these palms play well in SC. This is somewhat of a rant and I apologize but having watched the carnage of LY throughout SF in late 70’s-early 80’s, It brings back horrible memories of devastation that does not exist today.

Kinzy you hit the motherload regarding the Providencia! The ship also contained a  very large cache of wine, which iniated a heavy bender for the early residents and crew of the ship in addition to the coconut s. It was also speculated that this was an early bout of insurance fraud and orchestrated by the crew of the Providencia!

@bubba If LY is no longer a major problem in South Florida as you say, why are Jamaican Talls confined to just a few isolated regions?  Of all cultivars, JTs seem best adapted to Florida (in terms of soil and cold tolerance) and are also arguably the most attractive, so they should be a popular choice for landscape palm. If LY is no longer a factor, why do people choose less attractive cultivars?  Is it an absence of seeds, a fear of LY, or something else? Most of the Palm Beach JTs are inoculated, so that says nothing about the current presence (or absence) of LY. JTs are widespread on parts of the southwest coast, but could that stem from a later onset of LY giving time to inoculate prior to its arrival?  Or maybe they flourish without inoculation on the west coast, which would be remarkable. When I visit FL, I see that people grow what appear to be JTs on private property, but such isolated plantings may not produce a dense enough canopy to attract the plague.  Outside of these spots, it seems that the vast majority of coconuts in SF these days are Maypans and Malayan Dwarfs, and JTs are largely gone.

[bubba]

Coco you obviously know more about this than I do. I look out of my house and count no less than 50 JT’s.  Sadly, the West Coast of Florida was wiped out later( 90’s) and it certainly did not appear that they innoculated. JT’s and all Coconuts grow very fast from my observation. A 40 year old JT properly cared for could exceed 60 feet from my observation.

Also, I should point out that the 20,000 Coconauts (that was the accurate spelling prior to 1940) lost on the Providencia in January of 1879 were from Trinidad not Jamaica so they were Trinidad Talls.

 I do not know where you are from or how often you visit. That stated, your Coconut conclusions are flawed.

[CocoMtl]

On 11/12/2018, 9:21:26, bubba said:

Coco you obviously know more about this than I do. I look out of my house and count no less than 50 JT’s.  Sadly, the West Coast of Florida was wiped out later( 90’s) and it certainly did not appear that they innoculated. JT’s and all Coconuts grow very fast from my observation. A 40 year old JT properly cared for could exceed 60 feet from my observation.

Also, I should point out that the 20,000 Coconauts (that was the accurate spelling prior to 1940) lost on the Providencia in January of 1879 were from Trinidad not Jamaica so they were Trinidad Talls.

 I do not know where you are from or how often you visit. That stated, your Coconut conclusions are flawed.

Bubba I actually never claimed to know much. Just find the history of cocos in FL to be interesting, and would like to learn how things evolved to their present state. Not being a local, I probably don't understand the present state very well, and am happy to be corrected. So, any info you or others can provide is appreciated. In the end, I would like south Florida to return to its past glory with JTs (or some other handsome cultivar) all over the place.