Glyphosate in your palm garden?

[DoomsDave]

I've been watching the "Roundup Case" with interest. I use Roundup, which is Monsanto's license for glyphosate, and other brands, in my garden to control post-emergent weeds. I remember back when it came out in the 1970s; it was a godsend. Unlike 2-4-D, it killed grasses, too.

I try to use it sparingly, but some, including "factory farmers" use oceans of the stuff.

A jury in San Francisco found that glyphosate gave a school groundskeeper Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. At one point he got large amounts of concentrate on his body, or so I read. Whatever caused it, I can agree that NHL is terrible for the groundskeeper and his family.

I plan to continue to use glyphosate, as carefully as I can: not getting concentrate on me; not spraying plants I or the cats will be eating; using only when and where needed.

Curious to know what others might think. Please, be nice.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/08/10/jury-orders-monsanto-pay-289-million-cancer-patient-roundup-lawsuit/962297002/

[Darold Petty]

Here is an update with more details.....https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Judge-drastically-reduces-punitive-damages-in-13327991.php

 

[DoomsDave]

5 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Here is an update with more details.....https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Judge-drastically-reduces-punitive-damages-in-13327991.php

 

Yeah, looks like her honor made a mistake on the punitives amount. The US Supreme court held a while back that the limit was supposed to be 10 times the base amount.

The fun, as we lawyers like to say, has just begun.

[John Case]

,......not spraying plants I or the cats will be eating.....

Dave, when did you start eating cats?

[richnorm]

Sounds like a good time to consider alternatives...like steam?

[DoomsDave]

42 minutes ago, John Case said:

,......not spraying plants I or the cats will be eating.....

Dave, when did you start eating cats?

I don't eat cats, all that hair gets all over the place.

[DoomsDave]

Thanks to all who have responded!

I use it regularly in medium amounts, year round.

Just curious: what do you do if you don't use glyphosate? I have used other methods, especially the Cardboard Cure to deal with weeds like Purple Nut Sedge (of Doom). Just curious.

[Missi]

I'm good with the responsible use of scientifically studied chemicals in my garden. 

[mike in kurtistown]

Here in east Hawaii Island (over 150 inches of rain to date this year), where the grass and weeds grow like Jack's beanstalk, I don't know how I could manage without it. I  just spray around the base of palms, trying to avoid the leaves, trunk, or roots. Large areas of California grass will get sprayed. I use twice the concentration recommended by the commercial Roundup mixes for garden use. If Monsanto comes up with a substitute that doesn't cause cancer, I will happily switch.

 

[DoomsDave]

2 minutes ago, mike in kurtistown said:

Here in east Hawaii Island (over 150 inches of rain to date this year), where the grass and weeds grow like Jack's beanstalk, I don't know how I could manage without it. I  just spray around the base of palms, trying to avoid the leaves, trunk, or roots. Large areas of California grass will get sprayed. I use twice the concentration recommended by the commercial Roundup mixes for garden use. If Monsanto comes up with a substitute that doesn't cause cancer, I will happily switch.

 

I think that the greenskeeper's case was rather unique, if still tragic. He got a lot of the stuff on large areas of his body in the course of his job. I think most of us manage to avoid that, thank heaven.

What really sucks is just how prevalent carcinogens in general are. Even some medical treatments can contribute to cancers, including chemo and radiation therapies. Charred meat and mold spores also contain carcinogens.

[kinzyjr]

12 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks to all who have responded!

I use it regularly in medium amounts, year round.

Just curious: what do you do if you don't use glyphosate? I have used other methods, especially the Cardboard Cure to deal with weeds like Purple Nut Sedge (of Doom). Just curious.

I physically pull most of the weeds in my planting beds, but some have very deep roots.  For those, I'll pull all but the top 4" of the weed off, then drench the remaining stalk with Roundup.  Virginia creeper, a native plant and perennial pain in the neck, is almost impossible to control without Roundup.

[DoomsDave]

Just now, kinzyjr said:

I physically pull most of the weeds in my planting beds, but some have very deep roots.  For those, I'll pull all but the top 4" of the weed off, then drench the remaining stalk with Roundup.  Virginia creeper, a native plant and perennial pain in the neck, is almost impossible to control without Roundup.

Bet all that weightlifting helps! Wait till you get to be a feeble old goat like me . . . .

[joe_OC]

15 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks to all who have responded!

I use it regularly in medium amounts, year round.

Just curious: what do you do if you don't use glyphosate? I have used other methods, especially the Cardboard Cure to deal with weeds like Purple Nut Sedge (of Doom). Just curious.

Mulch!  I was mulching very heavily for a few years straight  8 inches of mulch kills off any weeds that want to grow.  My back was not happy with me.  I switched over to small black lava rock as my mulch now.  I use a lot of humic acid to make up for the organics the plants use to get from mulch.  I also find planting companion plants like ti's, heliconias, crotons, tropical begonias, ferns, and bromeliads don't give weeds a chance to grow.  When I do have weeds, I just manually pluck them out.   Then again, I don't have huge properties as some of you.

[DoomsDave]

Just now, joe_OC said:

Mulch!  I was mulching very heavily for a few years straight  8 inches of mulch kills off any weeds that want to grow.  My back was not happy with me.  I switched over to small black lava rock as my mulch now.  I use a lot of humic acid to make up for the organics the plants use to get from mulch.  I also find planting companion plants like ti's, heliconias, crotons, tropical begonias, ferns, and bromeliads don't give weeds a chance to grow.  When I do have weeds, I just manually pluck them out.   Then again, I don't have huge properties as some of you.

In the shade, I can pull the weeds. And, I mulch, too, with wood chips, though that's starting to get too expensive.

But no mortal human can pull Devil Grass, aka Bermuda Grass or Metastasis Grass. You only end up spreading it.

[kinzyjr]

6 minutes ago, joe_OC said:

Mulch!  I was mulching very heavily for a few years straight  8 inches of mulch kills off any weeds that want to grow.  My back was not happy with me.  I switched over to small black lava rock as my mulch now.  I use a lot of humic acid to make up for the organics the plants use to get from mulch.  I also find planting companion plants like ti's, heliconias, crotons, tropical begonias, ferns, and bromeliads don't give weeds a chance to grow.  When I do have weeds, I just manually pluck them out.   Then again, I don't have huge properties as some of you.

I have considered allowing ferns and certain ground covers to spread over my beds to keep the weeds away.  Sounds like I need to do more than think about it.

[DoomsDave]

14 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

I have considered allowing ferns and certain ground covers to spread over my beds to keep the weeds away.  Sounds like I need to do more than think about it.

Consider very carefully, and be prepared to go on a pogrom if a ground cover starts to get out of hand.

In addition to Metastasis Grass in the sun, there's the infamous Metastasis Fern of Doom^TM in the shade, also known, so benignly as the Boston Fern or Nephrolepis exaltata. "Fluffy Ruffles" on the Huns! People think I'm joking. They're like the Gremlins from the movie after they've gotten wet, except they don't sit in a movie theater wearing popcorn buckets on their heads.

Do consider with care. I've found companion plants to help, too, especially bromeliads.

Boston Fern pictured below, waiting for Thurston Howell to vomit on it . . . .

Here's Fluffy Ruffles, yeah yeah, a rabid poodle.

[Silas_Sancona]

34 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

In the shade, I can pull the weeds. And, I mulch, too, with wood chips, though that's starting to get too expensive.

But no mortal human can pull Devil Grass, aka Bermuda Grass or Metastasis Grass. You only end up spreading it.

Considering that i have had zero..  luck completely killing Bermuda w/ Roundup in the past, use of it is pointless.. getting out with a very sharp  spade and digging 6"- 10" under offending clumps of the stuff, and carefully removing as many visible stolons as possible, then repeating as needed when i see remnant shoots emerge has proven much more efficient.

Aside from the health concerns when using the stuff, certain weedy plant species can develop resistance / tolerance to Roundup, or other products thus you have to apply more of.. or a stronger formulation of X chemical.. a potentially never ending cycle. 

Use it carefully if you choose, but mulching, and and some good ol' hand weeding do a body, and the garden good.. Keep in mind that weeds generally turn up in fertile soil and are one of the first steps in re-establishing vegetation on disturbed soil.

A mixture of Vinegar, some Salt and Boiling water seems to knock down most of the "softer"  weeds  that pop up during monsoon season here. On the other hand, i'm glad we don't have Bermuda Buttercup ( Oxalis pes- caprae) That stuff is WORSE than Bermuda grass, imo.

[Kim]

Please define the difference between "regularly" and "seasonally" in the poll. Actually no choice works for me; it is used sporadically in my larger Hawaii garden and I follow the instructions on the label. I do not fear for my health. Many more weeds are pulled than sprayed -- the problem being if you spray and kill weeds that are 5-ft. tall and wide, the result is unsightly. Also, the moderate physical labor of weed-pulling is therapeutic in the sense of having hours of random thinking, though perhaps it's not the best use of my time.

In my smaller California garden, it is used mostly on the squat, tough, ugly weeds that congregate in the back alley or emerge from pavers and sidewalk cracks.

[DoomsDave]

3 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Considering that i have had zero..  luck completely killing Bermuda w/ Roundup in the past, use of it is pointless.. getting out with a very sharp  spade and digging 6"- 10" under offending clumps of the stuff, and carefully removing as many visible stolons as possible, then repeating as needed when i see remnant shoots emerge has proven much more efficient.

Aside from the health concerns when using the stuff, certain weedy plant species can develop resistance / tolerance to Roundup, or other products thus you have to apply more of.. or a stronger formulation of X chemical.. a potentially never ending cycle. 

Use it carefully if you choose, but mulching, and and some good ol' hand weeding do a body, and the garden good.. Keep in mind that weeds generally turn up in fertile soil and are one of the first steps in re-establishing vegetation on disturbed soil.

A mixture of Vinegar, some Salt and Boiling water seems to knock down most of the "softer"  weeds  that pop up during monsoon season here. On the other hand, i'm glad we don't have Bermuda Buttercup ( Oxalis pes- caprae) That stuff is WORSE than Bermuda grass, imo.

Hmm. INteresting. I've found glyphosate to annihilate bermuda grass, but you have to water and feet it first. Also, if it's not mowed the glyphosate won't do anything about seeds, which sprout later.

Bermuda buttercup? Worse than Bermuda Grass? Egad.

[DoomsDave]

3 minutes ago, Kim said:

Please define the difference between "regularly" and "seasonally" in the poll. Actually no choice works for me; it is used sporadically in my larger Hawaii garden and I follow the instructions on the label. I do not fear for my health. Many more weeds are pulled than sprayed -- the problem being if you spray and kill weeds that are 5-ft. tall and wide, the result is unsightly. Also, the moderate physical labor of weed-pulling is therapeutic in the sense of having hours of random thinking, though perhaps it's not the best use of my time.

In my smaller California garden, it is used mostly on the squat, tough, ugly weeds that congregate in the back alley or emerge from pavers and sidewalk cracks.

Regularly means year-round; seasonally means only in some seasons; that certainly could have been clearer. I use about a pint every three months, year-round. My usage has declined as the canopy has increased.

[Kim]

Just now, DoomsDave said:

My usage has declined as the canopy has increased.

Yes! Shade helps cut down on weed growth. Substantially!

[Matt in OC]

It's a necessary evil on some tough weeds for me. I try to always wear gloves and close toed shoes as well. I don't get fanatic with it, though and have plenty of pesky weeds that need pulling. An observation I've had, however, is that the branded Roundup did not give as good of results for me as a concentrate from another brand that I mix in a sprayer. On weeds in my lawns, I use something selective.

[Silas_Sancona]

19 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Hmm. INteresting. I've found glyphosate to annihilate bermuda grass, but you have to water and feet it first. Also, if it's not mowed the glyphosate won't do anything about seeds, which sprout later.

Bermuda buttercup? Worse than Bermuda Grass? Egad.

Lightly trimmed, watered.. by hand or rain.. doesn't matter. Demon Bermuda rages on. Keep in mind the stuff i have here sat without water for at least a year until we rented. Once i re landscaped the yard, and watered..it returned, with a vengeance, especially on some of the mounded areas i created..  The stuff also hides a war chest of growth nodes / active stolons up to 14" below the soil.  R-up will kill top growth for sure, esp in cracks along the driveway but as soon as the area gets wet, those areas where id sprayed grow a nice green beard of Bermuda, lol.. 

Could be wrong, but i thought Josh-O had discussed a home made formula he'd used that knocked Bermuda on its behind.. anyway

As for Bermuda Buttercup, if you don't have it, be glad.. Couldn't get rid of it back in San Jose.. Stuff emerges from a bulb. When you try to dig it out, you break off many dozens of tiny bulbs that re-establish. Those Bulbs can lie up to 2' below ground as well.. and they come up easily in Mulch /Compost piles.. Pretty spring flower but yeah.. worse than Bermuda Grass.. but perhaps not as bad as Torpedo Grass, or Air potato << gives me the chills...

[PalmatierMeg]

I use it as sparingly as possible during the 3-4 months of high rainy season when weeds multiply like vermin during the heat. Much of our 0.61 ac. lot is heavily mulched but weed and grasses make in-roads along the edges of the mulch beds. I try to hand weed as much as possible but can no longer take summer sun and heat like I used to. I use a backpack sprayer to distribute the Roundup, along with a face mask and latex gloves to minimize contact. We don't have a weed problem during dry season.

[greysrigging]

I use Roundup to control two specific weeds. Both turn into trees if allowed to grow over several wet seasons. Cyclone Marcus back in March felled several large trees in my back yard which has opened up the canopy to the sun, and provided disturbed ground which weeds love. One of the worst weeds in the Darwin region is a cursed shrub/small tree known locally as Coffee Bush ( Leucaena leucocephala ). A tough hardy species well attuned to the seasonal wet/dry of the Top End. Produces 10's of thousands of seeds annually. Roundup knocks new growth so its best to prune it or cut the tree down and immediately paint undiluted Roundup on the stump. Or wait for new regrowth and spray them. Even then it could be years until the plant dies.

The other weedy tree problem I have ( thanks to a neighbor's mature tree ) is umpteen million African Mahogany ( Khaya senegalensis ) seedlings. Beautiful shady tree that was distributed to Darwin gardeners after the 1974 Cyclone Tracey destroyed the City and felled all vegetation. A fast growing shady tree that has now proven to be totally unsuitable in Darwin soils which are notoriously poor and shallow..... meaning massive mature African Mahoganies tend to fall over during monsoonal storm events. And they produce squillions of seeds which all sprout at my yard ( so it seems ) Treatment with Roundup the same as for the Coffee Bush.

In the shady rain forest parts of my yard, the only weeds I have are literally millions of self sown and sprouted palm seedlings which I simply pull out by hand. My use of Roundup is sparing I'd say. But there is always a bottle of it in the shed...

[Really full garden]

I do use it when I have too. It would be impossible to maintain two large gardens without it. Even with help it is impossible to hand weed.

In Guatemala it is sprayed from helicopters ( making it next to impossible to avoid exposure) to keep the sugar cane from blooming and losing sugar content.

[Manalto]

I've been using acetic acid (10%) as an herbicide, with varying success. I believe the mechanism is that it strips off the cuticle so the foliage succumbs, which means some plants can resprout from the roots. In other words, it's not systemic. I reserve glyphosate for dabbing on cut stems and stumps to prevent regrowth. (I've eliminated dozens of camphor trees, 'Scourge of the South' this way.) I've become quite cautious around glyphosate because for many years I wasn't.

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, Manalto said:

I've been using acetic acid (10%) as an herbicide, with varying success. I believe the mechanism is that it strips off the cuticle so the foliage succumbs, which means some plants can resprout from the roots. In other words, it's not systemic. I reserve glyphosate for dabbing on cut stems and stumps to prevent regrowth. (I've eliminated dozens of camphor trees, 'Scourge of the South' this way.) I've become quite cautious around glyphosate because for many years I wasn't.

Tell us more about when you were not cautious, and what, exactly happened, and to what? (Or whom?)

[Mandrew968]

11 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

I've been watching the "Roundup Case" with interest. I use Roundup, which is Monsanto's license for glyphosate, and other brands, in my garden to control post-emergent weeds. I remember back when it came out in the 1970s; it was a godsend. Unlike 2-4-D, it killed grasses, too.

I try to use it sparingly, but some, including "factory farmers" use oceans of the stuff.

A jury in San Francisco found that glyphosate gave a school groundskeeper Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. At one point he got large amounts of concentrate on his body, or so I read. Whatever caused it, I can agree that NHL is terrible for the groundskeeper and his family.

I plan to continue to use glyphosate, as carefully as I can: not getting concentrate on me; not spraying plants I or the cats will be eating; using only when and where needed.

Curious to know what others might think. Please, be nice.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/08/10/jury-orders-monsanto-pay-289-million-cancer-patient-roundup-lawsuit/962297002/

This was a court case. Courts are not scientists. Having said that, is this stuff probably not good? Probably. But what chemical is... Like Mike said, what else can some of us do other than use it... I have 6000 palms to weed-cant do it by hand; there are some situations where it's the only option.

[Gonzer]

15 hours ago, Missi said:

I'm good with the responsible use of scientifically studied chemicals in my garden. 

This. Education and application protocol are essential.

15 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

I think that the greenskeeper's case was rather unique, if still tragic. He got a lot of the stuff on large areas of his body in the course of his job. I think most of us manage to avoid that, thank heaven.

What really sucks is just how prevalent carcinogens in general are. Even some medical treatments can contribute to cancers, including chemo and radiation therapies. Charred meat and mold spores also contain carcinogens.

Unique? Maybe. Tragic? No way. If he got large amounts on his body then somewhere down the line then proper mixing/spraying procedures were breeched. Consequences are a fact of life when attempting shortcuts or disregarding instructions. Neither tragic nor fortunate. Like when the news reports the "tragic" death of a pedestrian being hit by a car. They don't tell you that said pedestrian had their head down, texting, and not watching traffic. Tragic? Not a chance. Yeah, I'm a heartless SOB and I love Roundup and will probably outlive Keith Richards.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Gonzer

[Manalto]

7 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Tell us more about when you were not cautious, and what, exactly happened, and to what? (Or whom?)

When I was not cautious, I didn't worry about accidentally dribbling some of the mixed solution onto my skin or if a splash when mixing got me in the pant-leg. (I've worked at a few botanical gardens, so glyphosate applications were a frequent routine.)

What happened? (I feel like I"m being set up here. OK, I'll bite.) I got wet. I'm not a toxicologist studying the effects of glyphosate on living organisms, so I'm unprepared to answer that more fully. As a layman and in general, I think it's safe to say that one is unable to detect most of the biological processes within one's body until long after they've gone terribly awry. I'm not so naive that I imagine Monsanto is motivated to be fully forthcoming about the risks of its products nor do i categorize the public's knowledge of their reports as "scientifically studied," so now when I use glyphosate I'm especially careful not to get any on me, my dogs or anyone else.

I mentioned acetic acid just in case this inexpensive, non-toxic and reasonably-effective method were unknown to some participants here and they might be interested in having this option. However, this discussion runs a very high risk of going into the scoffing, "well, ya gotta die from something" direction. I'm not interested in participating in that pointless exercise except to say that I'd prefer it if my cause of death weren't willful stupidity.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Manalto
clarity

[DoomsDave]

Thanks to everyone for your replies and participation in the poll.

Please keep it coming.

[Manalto]

9 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Thanks to everyone for your replies and participation in the poll.

There's a poll? Alright! I'm off to vote! (I know my responsibilities! )

[DoomsDave]

2 hours ago, Gonzer said:

This. Education and application protocol are essential.

Unique? Maybe. Tragic? No way. If he got large amounts on his body then somewhere down the line then proper mixing/spraying procedures were breeched. Consequences are a fact of life when attempting shortcuts or disregarding instructions. Neither tragic nor fortunate. Like when the news reports the "tragic" death of a pedestrian being hit by a car. They don't tell you that said pedestrian had their head down, texting, and not watching traffic. Tragic? Not a chance. Yeah, I'm a heartless SOB and I love Roundup and will probably outlive Keith Richards.

Most of us will likely outlive Keith Richards.

[Gonzer]

Somehow I get no satisfaction from that thought.

[Manalto]

42 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Most of us will likely outlive Keith Richards.

Betty White probably will.

[DoomsDave]

Just now, Manalto said:

Betty White probably will.

Who knows, maybe Kirk Douglas and Olivia de Haviland as well.

[Palm Tree Jim]

15 minutes ago, Gonzer said:

Somehow I get no satisfaction from that thought.

Well said!

[Palm Tree Jim]

I have chosen to use this chemical, and follow the directions for use.

It works well and my weeds have never been an issue for me. With that being said, I have always mulched my garden, pull weeds by hand in some cases and because of this, my use is very limited of the chemical.

Part of my property has a slope were I only use Round Up. If the weeds were pulled by hand, that would cause loose soil and erosion which I do not want.

If I recall, I purchased 1 gallon of Round Up 3 years ago, so again mu usage is minimal.

[DoomsDave]

Just now, Palm Tree Jim said:

I have chosen to use this chemical, and follow the directions for use.

It works well and my weeds have never been an issue for me. With that being said, I have always mulched my garden, pull weeds by hand in some cases and because of this, my use is very limited of the chemical.

Part of my property has a slope were I only use Round Up. If the weeds were pulled by hand, that would cause loose soil and erosion which I do not want.

If I recall, I purchased 1 gallon of Round Up 3 years ago, so again mu usage is minimal.

Is that a gallon of concentrate?