south mediterranean Coco Nucifera

[riadh]

Hello I am new in the talk and I am a fan of palm trees.

I brought a coconut from Bali in April. I waited a month to make it germinate and then put outside it in a large pot of 45 cm in may. It has grown well and is currently 45 cm total height with 4 leaves not yet pinnate. These days it's hot (28 degrees c maximum and 20 degrees c minimum).
In my opinion the problems will start from late November when the temperature will drop.
In your opinion, from any temperature of day and night should I put it inside the house? What rhythm of watering inside? What precautions to take? From any age can I implant it outside in the ground? And what are the chances of success? 

here is an idea of the weather :

Max. / Min (° C)    Rain
January16 ° / 8 °       7 days
February17 ° / 8 °      7 days
March19 ° / 9 °          6 days
January16 ° / 8 °       7 days
February17 ° / 8 °      7 days
March19 ° / 9 °          6 days
April22 ° / 11 °           5 days
May26 ° / 14 °           3 days
Monday 30 ° / 18 °    1 day
July34 ° / 21 °            0 days
Monday -3 ° / 5 °       1 day
September30 ° / 20 ° 4 days
October26 ° / 16 °     5 days
November21 ° / 12 °  6 days
December17 ° / 9 °    7 days

Thank you for your help.

[PalmatierMeg]

Welcome to PalmTalk. I'm not sure I totally understand your repetitious chart but from what I can gather you will have a very difficult time keeping your coconut alive much of the year. Coconuts are tropical and your mediterranean climate is definitely not friendly to tropical palms. Coconuts require sun and very high heat, i.e., 30C+. What you call a hot temp (30C) is merely warm to a coconut. Your winter temps in the teens C down to -3C (yikes!) are far too cool/cold to maintain this palm. You must realize that coconuts are "cool sensitive" as well as cold sensitive. Prolonged periods of cool/chilly weather will kill them as surely as a 0C freeze. Coconuts will not photosynthesize below 10C and will starve in cool weather. Cold weather and rain are lethal to them.

Your potted palm should be relatively happy in weather highs of 20C+. It can survive brief overnight highs or 8-10C as long as the temperature rebounds quickly after the sun comes up. If that doesn't happen your plant won't be happy. Lows of 5-8C will cause leaf spotting and browning. Lows below 5C will cause major damage and possibly death, esp. for a strap leaf seedling.

In summary, be prepared to bring your palm indoors during cold/chilly weather, esp. if rain is predicted. Indoors you must provide supplemental lighting to replace lost sunlight, extra heat (30C+) during the day and extra humidity (set pot on tray filled with rocks and water). Most houses in winter are too cold, too dark and too dry to keep tropical palms healthy. That may seem a lot of work but it is necessary to maintain a coconut.

[riadh]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Welcome to PalmTalk. I'm not sure I totally understand your repetitious chart but from what I can gather you will have a very difficult time keeping your coconut alive much of the year. Coconuts are tropical and your mediterranean climate is definitely not friendly to tropical palms. Coconuts require sun and very high heat, i.e., 30C+. What you call a hot temp (30C) is merely warm to a coconut. Your winter temps in the teens C down to -3C (yikes!) are far too cool/cold to maintain this palm. You must realize that coconuts are "cool sensitive" as well as cold sensitive. Prolonged periods of cool/chilly weather will kill them as surely as a 0C freeze. Coconuts will not photosynthesize below 10C and will starve in cool weather. Cold weather and rain are lethal to them.

Your potted palm should be relatively happy in weather highs of 20C+. It can survive brief overnight highs or 8-10C as long as the temperature rebounds quickly after the sun comes up. If that doesn't happen your plant won't be happy. Lows of 5-8C will cause leaf spotting and browning. Lows below 5C will cause major damage and possibly death, esp. for a strap leaf seedling.

In summary, be prepared to bring your palm indoors during cold/chilly weather, esp. if rain is predicted. Indoors you must provide supplemental lighting to replace lost sunlight, extra heat (30C+) during the day and extra humidity (set pot on tray filled with rocks and water). Most houses in winter are too cold, too dark and too dry to keep tropical palms healthy. That may seem a lot of work but it is necessary to maintain a coconut.

sorry meg, for the mistake in my chart (mistake in august) :

Max. / Min (° C)    Rain
January16 ° / 8 °       7 days
February17 ° / 8 °      7 days
March19 ° / 9 °          6 days
January16 ° / 8 °       7 days
February17 ° / 8 °      7 days
March19 ° / 9 °          6 days
April22 ° / 11 °           5 days
May26 ° / 14 °           3 days
Monday 30 ° / 18 °    1 day
July     34 ° / 21 °       0 days
August 34 ° / 22 °       1 day
September 30 ° / 20 ° 4 days
October  26 ° / 16 °     5 days
November21 ° / 12 °  6 days
December17 ° / 9 °    7 days.

The mean minimum temperature is 8 ° C.

The minimum temperature recorded those last 10 years is 4 ° C.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

As meg mentioned thats not warm enough.  Look at the climate data of Corpus Christi Texas for the absolute bare minimum to keep a coconut alive outside for a few years. If your even slightly below that you cant grow a coconut. 

[DavidLee]

I remember seeing a Coconut palm years ago in the Al Arish, Egypt on the Mediterranean coast in the Sinai. It did not look good but it was alive. Probably your coconut will survive but not look like a coconut grown in the tropics. It is worth a try. 

[greysrigging]

Your climate looks very similar to Perth in Western Australia. Coconuts do not grow naturally in Perth, although with a bit of human intervention ( ie a lot of effort ) they will survive. There is a thread on here somewhere about whats needed to successfully grow one in a Mediterranean climate.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56220-my-perth-coconut-palm/#comment-842122

[GottmitAlex]

1 minute ago, greysrigging said:

Your climate looks very similar to Perth in Western Australia. Coconuts do not grow naturally in Perth, although with a bit of human intervention ( ie a lot of effort ) they will survive. There is a thread on here somewhere about whats needed to successfully grow one in a Mediterranean climate.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56220-my-perth-coconut-palm/#comment-842122

If there is a will, there is a way.

[sandgroper]

Looks colder than Perth, maximum temps of 16c for three months are too cold I think but there's no reason you can't try. Good luck and I hope it grows well for you. 

[Phoenikakias]

Consult another thread, where two other growers from Israel and Cyprus mostly have been participating. The Israeli guy in particular is so far astonishingly successful. R U situated in northern or southern Tn?

[riadh]

8 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Your climate looks very similar to Perth in Western Australia. Coconuts do not grow naturally in Perth, although with a bit of human intervention ( ie a lot of effort ) they will survive. There is a thread on here somewhere about whats needed to successfully grow one in a Mediterranean climate.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56220-my-perth-coconut-palm/#comment-842122

Thanks. The experience of Dave is amazing. I'll try to use some of his tricks.  

[riadh]

6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Consult another thread, where two other growers from Israel and Cyprus mostly have been participating. The Israeli guy in particular is so far astonishingly successful. R U situated in northern or southern Tn?

I leave in the north of Tunisia, 5 kms of the cost. My garden  is sheltered. The temperature are slight higher than Cyprus and slight lower than Perth.

8 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Your climate looks very similar to Perth in Western Australia. Coconuts do not grow naturally in Perth, although with a bit of human intervention ( ie a lot of effort ) they will survive. There is a thread on here somewhere about whats needed to successfully grow one in a Mediterranean climate.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56220-my-perth-coconut-palm/#comment-842122

Thanks. The experience of Dave is amazing. I'll try to use some of his tricks.  

[Walt]

I agree with others that your climate is just to cool for too long for the survival of a coconut palm. I've been growing a Malayan green dwarf coconut palm for 15 years, starting from a palm that was most likely 2-3 years old from seed. So that would make my palm about 18 years old. My palm only has about 8 feet of trunk. It's been producing fruit yearly for the past five years, but for some reason this year it has not produced one new flower stalk.

But to my point with regard to your coconut palm. After reviewing your temperature stats, your climate is too cool to grow a coconut palm, unless for man made intervention. And by that, you would have to have an artificial man made mini climate. That is, you would probably need some sort of crude greenhouse to be constructed around your palm so as to retain heat. Soil heat would be important for the roots. Then you would want adequate trunk and meristem heat. That can easily be accomplished with heating cables or string lights and insulation.

In the case of my coconut  palm, I would have lost mine years ago had I not protected it with heating cables and insulation wraps to cover the trunk and meristem. As far as the fronds, let nature take her course.I can no longer protect my fronds, so I let them get frost burned and just endure while new spring and summer fronds regrow.

Actually, I think it would be easier to protect my palm than for you to protect yours, as I only need to protect mine maybe one night each winter. In fact, mine hasn't had to be protected for the past five winters  But in 2010 I had to protect it 11 nights in a row. While I can get a much lower nighttime temperature (on occasion on some winters) i do have adequate heat most days to keep a coconut palm growing throughout the winter.

But pushing the envelope on tender palms is my stock in trade, although I'm slowing down now due to age. I'm not really interested now in going all out in protecting dozens of palms like I used to 20 years ago. However, I do still plan on protecting my coconut palm. Lastly, I think you should push the envelop and try to grow your coconut palm, and try to do all you can to concentrate wintertime heat on and around your palm.

[riadh]

On 22/09/2018 à, Walt said:

I agree with others that your climate is just to cool for too long for the survival of a coconut palm. I've been growing a Malayan green dwarf coconut palm for 15 years, starting from a palm that was most likely 2-3 years old from seed. So that would make my palm about 18 years old. My palm only has about 8 feet of trunk. It's been producing fruit yearly for the past five years, but for some reason this year it has not produced one new flower stalk.

But to my point with regard to your coconut palm. After reviewing your temperature stats, your climate is too cool to grow a coconut palm, unless for man made intervention. And by that, you would have to have an artificial man made mini climate. That is, you would probably need some sort of crude greenhouse to be constructed around your palm so as to retain heat. Soil heat would be important for the roots. Then you would want adequate trunk and meristem heat. That can easily be accomplished with heating cables or string lights and insulation.

In the case of my coconut  palm, I would have lost mine years ago had I not protected it with heating cables and insulation wraps to cover the trunk and meristem. As far as the fronds, let nature take her course.I can no longer protect my fronds, so I let them get frost burned and just endure while new spring and summer fronds regrow.

Actually, I think it would be easier to protect my palm than for you to protect yours, as I only need to protect mine maybe one night each winter. In fact, mine hasn't had to be protected for the past five winters  But in 2010 I had to protect it 11 nights in a row. While I can get a much lower nighttime temperature (on occasion on some winters) i do have adequate heat most days to keep a coconut palm growing throughout the winter.

But pushing the envelope on tender palms is my stock in trade, although I'm slowing down now due to age. I'm not really interested now in going all out in protecting dozens of palms like I used to 20 years ago. However, I do still plan on protecting my coconut palm. Lastly, I think you should push the envelop and try to grow your coconut palm, and try to do all you can to concentrate wintertime heat on and around your palm.

On 22/09/2018 à, Walt said:

I agree with others that your climate is just to cool for too long for the survival of a coconut palm. I've been growing a Malayan green dwarf coconut palm for 15 years, starting from a palm that was most likely 2-3 years old from seed. So that would make my palm about 18 years old. My palm only has about 8 feet of trunk. It's been producing fruit yearly for the past five years, but for some reason this year it has not produced one new flower stalk.

But to my point with regard to your coconut palm. After reviewing your temperature stats, your climate is too cool to grow a coconut palm, unless for man made intervention. And by that, you would have to have an artificial man made mini climate. That is, you would probably need some sort of crude greenhouse to be constructed around your palm so as to retain heat. Soil heat would be important for the roots. Then you would want adequate trunk and meristem heat. That can easily be accomplished with heating cables or string lights and insulation.

In the case of my coconut  palm, I would have lost mine years ago had I not protected it with heating cables and insulation wraps to cover the trunk and meristem. As far as the fronds, let nature take her course.I can no longer protect my fronds, so I let them get frost burned and just endure while new spring and summer fronds regrow.

Actually, I think it would be easier to protect my palm than for you to protect yours, as I only need to protect mine maybe one night each winter. In fact, mine hasn't had to be protected for the past five winters  But in 2010 I had to protect it 11 nights in a row. While I can get a much lower nighttime temperature (on occasion on some winters) i do have adequate heat most days to keep a coconut palm growing throughout the winter.

But pushing the envelope on tender palms is my stock in trade, although I'm slowing down now due to age. I'm not really interested now in going all out in protecting dozens of palms like I used to 20 years ago. However, I do still plan on protecting my coconut palm. Lastly, I think you should push the envelop and try to grow your coconut palm, and try to do all you can to concentrate wintertime heat on and around your palm.

Thank you Walt for sharing your experience. I'll do all I can to make my palm grow. I think for the first year I'll let it in the pot and I will move it inside when the minimun temperatures goes less than 12 ° C. If it grows well I'll put it in the soil next year in april. I should manage some canopy around it and a demontable greenhouse for the cold days. I'll let you know of the progress.   

On 21/09/2018 à, Phoenikakias said:

Consult another thread, where two other growers from Israel and Cyprus mostly have been participating. The Israeli guy in particular is so far astonishingly successful. R U situated in northern or southern Tn?

I leave in the north of Tunisia, 5 kms of the cost. My garden  is sheltered. 

On 21/09/2018 à, greysrigging said:

Your climate looks very similar to Perth in Western Australia. Coconuts do not grow naturally in Perth, although with a bit of human intervention ( ie a lot of effort ) they will survive. There is a thread on here somewhere about whats needed to successfully grow one in a Mediterranean climate.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56220-my-perth-coconut-palm/#comment-842122

Thanks. The experience of Dave is amazing. I'll try to use some of his tricks.  

[Walt]

I think there are two main challenges for successfully growing a coconut palm. 1. Folks that want to grow them in warm temperate climates where a freeze and/or frost is very rare, but wintertime temperatures, while are not relatively cold, they are too cool (as well as soil temperatures) to successfully grow a coconut palm

2. There are folks like me that want to grow coconut palms, but have fairly good average wintertime air and soil temperatures, but occasionally get one or two night of fridged air that might kill a coconut palm. Basically I live in a solid zone 10b (and mostly 11+ all winter) climate 363 days a year. It's the other two days that can offset and cancel out the other 363 days! And what really bums me out is that just less than 2 miles away up in town (Lake Placid) is a solid zone 10 (35.8 degrees was the coldest morning this past winter when my place dropped to 28 degrees). This is due to a difference in topographical elevation, where the air is warmer up in town. Same for around the many (12) lakes that surround the town. In my area of inland Florida, large lakes and elevation basically dictate if one can grow a coconut palm long term. Almost invariably, the coldest air we get here is from windless radiational cooling nights, not windy advective nights. The first night of almost all cold fronts are windy, but not as cold as the second and/or third night. That's when the coldest air settles in, sinks to the lowest locations (like my place) and frost forms on foliage.

Below are a series of photos I took back in  December of 2010 when I had 11 straight days of cold temperatures, when nighttime lows dropped below 40F/4.4C eleven nights in a row. Six of those nights my lows dropped below 30F/-1.1, and three of those nights dropped below 25F/-3.85C, the lowest of those three was 20.7F/-6.21! 

Many palms I have near my house that I could run electric extension cords to, I installed heating coils and insulation around the palm trunks. Had I not done that I believe they would have been killed. Note the below photos have date stamps on them. I purposely leave date stamps on my photos for documentation purposes. For many winters I would when sub 30F/-1C was predicted, I would, days before, get out my heating cables and wrap the trunks up past the meristem of many palms (A. alex., S. schizophylla, D, leptocheilos, and two adionidia). But thoses days are behind me now. I haven't had to protect like that for the past five winters. If I protect any palm at all now, it will be my coconut palm.

So now I will list a series of photos showing my coconut palm one day before the onslaught of the 11-day cold spell in December of 2010, showing the cold damage, then several photos taken months apart, showing the coconut palm's recovery 12 months later in December of 2011.

Photo 1: Shows my coconut palm wrapped with heating cables and wrapped with insulation wraps to hold in the heat from the cables.

Photo 2: Shows my coconut palm after the end of the long cold spell. I removed the insulation. Note the forced air heater (kerosene 35K BTU). I ran this heater about two nights to blow warm are on fronds, to no avail.

Photo 3: Shows my coconut, A. alexander, and D. leptocheilos putting out new spears, date 2-14-11. My heating cables and insulation saved these palms from almost sure death by freeze. Fronds toasted, but trunk and meristem undamaged.

Photo 4: Shows my recovering coconut palm on 10-28-11.

Photo 5: Shows my recovering coconut palm almost exactly one year to the day it started to get cold damaged, as I think the cold spell started on December 7, 2010.In the back ground you can see my  A. alexander palm has recovered quite a bit.

The upshot is, if I want to grow a coconut palm long term, I must protect it on nights that would drop much below 30F/0C. That happened this past winter on just one night in February. I estimate it dropped to about 28 degrees by sun up. I didn't protect my coconut palm, and I feel it probably didn't see 28 degrees since there is a lag in heat transfer from the palm to the ambient air. I think mainly the palm fronds were frost burned. New spears were not stunted, so that indicates to me there wasn't much, if any, meristem cold trauma.  My coconut palm has exactly 8 feet of exposed trunk now. I can still use a step ladder to install heating cables to the trunk and meristem if need be this winter. However, I'm hoping for a mild winter, no worse than the last five.

 

[bubba]

Always wondered why the  northern Mediterranean does not have Coconuts. It seems they should atleast survive. Those temperatures are surprisingly cool. I still wonder about Port Elizabeth, SA at 34S. Median temperatures for 2018: June 64.9F, July 66.1F and August 63F. High for period was 88F and low was 46.1F. Makes me believe Denis’s confirmation of Coconuts in PE!

[PalmatierMeg]

Walt, excellent photo tutorial. It gives people living in marginal areas an idea of what they must do to keep this species alive during arctic cold fronts. Unfortunately for people in mediterranean climates this mode of protection is impractical. They would have to keep their palms heated and wrapped for months at a time, which, even if possible, is unsightly. That is because this palm, as I've said before, is "cool sensitive". It must have sunshine  and prolonged temps above 85F (30C) and 95F+ (36C+).  

[Walt]

19 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Walt, excellent photo tutorial. It gives people living in marginal areas an idea of what they must do to keep this species alive during arctic cold fronts. Unfortunately for people in mediterranean climates this mode of protection is impractical. They would have to keep their palms heated and wrapped for months at a time, which, even if possible, is unsightly. That is because this palm, as I've said before, is "cool sensitive". It must have sunshine  and prolonged temps above 85F (30C) and 95F+ (36C+).  

Yes, Meg, that's my opinion too. I only have to protect my coconut every so many years on just one night, perhaps two (no protect the past five winters).

The average January high (coldest month of year) for my area is 73F/22.55C. My Average January low is 49F/9.35C. Not sure what the average soil temperature is, but I can research them via a University of Florida website weather tower eight miles from my place. In any event, I know until this past winter my coconut palm wasn't frost burned, it only exhibited it's typical winter K deficiency which it quickly grew out once hotter spring temperatures arrived.

On the other hand, if I lived in a warm Mediterranean climate where most days were sonny, and I wanted to try and grow a coconut palm. I would probably locate it close to my house where it would get the most direct sunlight year round, especially during the cooler winter months. I would plant it in well drained soil, that wouldn't become water logged during the winter when the soil was colder. I may use black sand and/or dark gravel to absorb as much of the sun's radiant heat as possible. I would try to install reflective (aluminum foil) panels around it so as to multiple light and radiant heat, at least during the cooler months. Then in summer when temperatures were conducive to coconut palm growing (even in a Mediterranean climate) I would remove the assisting panels and other possible assisting items so that I could visually enjoy my palm unobstructed. Also, if I had to install some sub soil heating cables to help with root warmth during the winter months, I would do so.

I think about how long the Newport Beach, California, coconut lasted. While I realize it was located in a public place where daily human intervention probably wouldn't have been allowed, it had a lot going or it being in proximity to a masonry building, concrete sidewwalk (heat sinks). But if a crude poly greenhouse/tent structure could have been built around it during the coolest months (poly opened up during the day as required, it may have been able to have grown much better and lasted longer. Plus, I have no idea what kind of culture that palm got in terms of irrigation and fertilization. I was sorry to see the Newport coconut demise, as I enjoy stories and palm hobbyist's accounts of pushing the envelope to grow palms they love, and defy odds of failure.

I say this within reason, naturally, It's one thing to try to grow a palm 1/2 to 1 USDA zone above their own, and quite another to try and grow a zone 10b palm in zone 7, etc. On the other hand growing some heat loving species of palms in cool climates (but that rarely freeze) presents different challenges than what I'm confronted with. 

[PalmatierMeg]

I researched palms for years before I stumbled upon the concept of "coolness sensitivity", an overlooked piece of the hardiness puzzle. And it's frustrating how many people ignore or can't fathom that concept. Instead they focus on a pinpoint ultimate low and overlook all other parameters, then wonder why their tropical palms die. Most of the time it's not the ultimate high or low but what lies in between that makes the difference.

[hbernstein]

I think that the temperatures that  people consider cool or cold who live in climates that are not tropical or warm subtropical are very different than folks living where Coconut Palms will thrive.

Here in Miami, locals think that a 65F. daytime high, especially with some wind, as cold. An 85F. day in Summer would be considered very cool (and doesn't happen unless it's rainy). Soil temperatures always stay high.

85F. when I lived in Chicago was great, but still thought of as pretty hot. 

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, hbernstein said:

I think that the temperatures that  people consider cool or cold who live in climates that are not tropical or warm subtropical are very different than folks living where Coconut Palms will thrive.

Here in Miami, locals think that a 65F. daytime high, especially with some wind, as cold. An 85F. day in Summer would be considered very cool (and doesn't happen unless it's rainy). Soil temperatures always stay high.

85F. when I lived in Chicago was great, but still thought of as pretty hot. 

You make a good point that I hadn't fully considered: what some people consider "hot" is not by SE US summer standards. In Aug 1981 my mother and I visited my aunt & uncle in San Jose, CA. One evening we sat in the back yard and it was glorious: temp. in the 80s and low humidity (August in Washington Metro area is sweltering). My aunt sat down and fanned herself. "Oh, it's so hot and humid, just unbearable," she said. My mother and I just looked at her.

[Walt]

8 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I researched palms for years before I stumbled upon the concept of "coolness sensitivity", an overlooked piece of the hardiness puzzle. And it's frustrating how many people ignore or can't fathom that concept. Instead they focus on a pinpoint ultimate low and overlook all other parameters, then wonder why their tropical palms die. Most of the time it's not the ultimate high or low but what lies in between that makes the difference.

I checked the Sebring FAWN site report generator, and the coldest the soil got for Feb. 2018 was 58.24 degree F, and that was on Feb. 1st. But generally, the nighttime soil temperatures ranged mostly in the upper 60s and low 70s, reaching into the 80s during most days. The monthly average soil temperature at 10 centimeters depth was 74.05, and was 84.81. I myself, when I first got into the palm growing hobby thought well, if one is in USDA zone 10 or 11, they could grow a coconut palm with no problem. Then I did some research and found areas of southern California that were zone 11 -- and coconuts wouldn't grow there, but yet I could grow one in zone 9b, as long as I protected it on those one or two nights some winters. If I lived up in town where it runs 7-8 degrees warmer on the coldest nights,  I would never have to protect them. None of the coconut palm up in town were killed in 2010 -- all due to elevation and warm air inversion. This is another concept some folks living at or near sea level don't understand.

Today I plucked a very small coconut from my palm, just to see it it was eatable. I shook it and heard water sloshing around, so I cut the husk off, punched a hole in one of the eyes, drained it a smelled the water. It smelled sweet. I drank all of it. I then put the nut in the freezer and will remove it in the morning, break open the shell and extract the meat. Freezing it overnight helps separate the meat from the shell so you can remove it in larger pieces (leaned that from a YouTube video).

The nuts are very small, seemingly more small than usual. Maybe that's one reason they are called a Malayan dwarf. Still, they taste just as good.

[bubba]

Re-reading this back and forth between Walt and Meg and it is clear that there is a high and deep knowledge of this subject on display. hbernstein makes great point also. Thank you.

[GottmitAlex]

5 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

You make a good point that I hadn't fully considered: what some people consider "hot" is not by SE US summer standards. In Aug 1981 my mother and I visited my aunt & uncle in San Jose, CA. One evening we sat in the back yard and it was glorious: temp. in the 80s and low humidity (August in Washington Metro area is sweltering). My aunt sat down and fanned herself. "Oh, it's so hot and humid, just unbearable," she said. My mother and I just looked at her.

Quite right. It's interesting. We're 14 miles inland and today, we hit 90F. (As usual). As I am typing this we're at 68f. I'm not saying I'm putting on a great coat, however it is chilly.  As a creature of habit I wear long sleeved shirts and  trousers daily.  In spite of that, the climate feels very cool.

I forgot to mention, we're at 87% RH and with a tad bit of wind.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by GottmitAlex

[pj_orlando_z9b]

On 9/23/2018, 10:37:01, Walt said:

I think there are two main challenges for successfully growing a coconut palm. 1. Folks that want to grow them in warm temperate climates where a freeze and/or frost is very rare, but wintertime temperatures, while are not relatively cold, they are too cool (as well as soil temperatures) to successfully grow a coconut palm

2. There are folks like me that want to grow coconut palms, but have fairly good average wintertime air and soil temperatures, but occasionally get one or two night of fridged air that might kill a coconut palm. Basically I live in a solid zone 10b (and mostly 11+ all winter) climate 363 days a year. It's the other two days that can offset and cancel out the other 363 days! And what really bums me out is that just less than 2 miles away up in town (Lake Placid) is a solid zone 10 (35.8 degrees was the coldest morning this past winter when my place dropped to 28 degrees). This is due to a difference in topographical elevation, where the air is warmer up in town. Same for around the many (12) lakes that surround the town. In my area of inland Florida, large lakes and elevation basically dictate if one can grow a coconut palm long term. Almost invariably, the coldest air we get here is from windless radiational cooling nights, not windy advective nights. The first night of almost all cold fronts are windy, but not as cold as the second and/or third night. That's when the coldest air settles in, sinks to the lowest locations (like my place) and frost forms on foliage.

Below are a series of photos I took back in  December of 2010 when I had 11 straight days of cold temperatures, when nighttime lows dropped below 40F/4.4C eleven nights in a row. Six of those nights my lows dropped below 30F/-1.1, and three of those nights dropped below 25F/-3.85C, the lowest of those three was 20.7F/-6.21! 

Many palms I have near my house that I could run electric extension cords to, I installed heating coils and insulation around the palm trunks. Had I not done that I believe they would have been killed. Note the below photos have date stamps on them. I purposely leave date stamps on my photos for documentation purposes. For many winters I would when sub 30F/-1C was predicted, I would, days before, get out my heating cables and wrap the trunks up past the meristem of many palms (A. alex., S. schizophylla, D, leptocheilos, and two adionidia). But thoses days are behind me now. I haven't had to protect like that for the past five winters. If I protect any palm at all now, it will be my coconut palm.

So now I will list a series of photos showing my coconut palm one day before the onslaught of the 11-day cold spell in December of 2010, showing the cold damage, then several photos taken months apart, showing the coconut palm's recovery 12 months later in December of 2011.

Photo 1: Shows my coconut palm wrapped with heating cables and wrapped with insulation wraps to hold in the heat from the cables.

Photo 2: Shows my coconut palm after the end of the long cold spell. I removed the insulation. Note the forced air heater (kerosene 35K BTU). I ran this heater about two nights to blow warm are on fronds, to no avail.

Photo 3: Shows my coconut, A. alexander, and D. leptocheilos putting out new spears, date 2-14-11. My heating cables and insulation saved these palms from almost sure death by freeze. Fronds toasted, but trunk and meristem undamaged.

Photo 4: Shows my recovering coconut palm on 10-28-11.

Photo 5: Shows my recovering coconut palm almost exactly one year to the day it started to get cold damaged, as I think the cold spell started on December 7, 2010.In the back ground you can see my  A. alexander palm has recovered quite a bit.

The upshot is, if I want to grow a coconut palm long term, I must protect it on nights that would drop much below 30F/0C. That happened this past winter on just one night in February. I estimate it dropped to about 28 degrees by sun up. I didn't protect my coconut palm, and I feel it probably didn't see 28 degrees since there is a lag in heat transfer from the palm to the ambient air. I think mainly the palm fronds were frost burned. New spears were not stunted, so that indicates to me there wasn't much, if any, meristem cold trauma.  My coconut palm has exactly 8 feet of exposed trunk now. I can still use a step ladder to install heating cables to the trunk and meristem if need be this winter. However, I'm hoping for a mild winter, no worse than the last five.

 

My palm currently looks like your last pic. Here is an example of my coconut pre freeze...ONE night below freezing...and yesterday. ONE night did this...our climate is great but so frustrating. The only benefit is a faster recovery from the tropical summers. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by pj_orlando_z9b

[GottmitAlex]

Here's my.Mediterranean coconut. 

 

[sandgroper]

Here's my Mediterranean coconut.

[Walt]

8 hours ago, pj_orlando_z9b said:

My palm currently looks like your last pic. Here is an example of my coconut pre freeze...ONE night below freezing...and yesterday. ONE night did this...our climate is great but so frustrating. The only benefit is a faster recovery from the tropical summers. 

PJ: At least your coconut palm as reasonably recovered in just seven months time. I suspect you will get 2-3 more fronds before the real chill sets in. If we luck out this winter, and your palm receives no further damage, by next summer it should have a full and beautiful crown of fronds. But if we do happen to get one or two bad nights this winter, then you must swing into action and protect the trunk and meristem with the string lights and lots of insulation wraps. I would still advise you procuring a good EasyHeat heating cable, for more heat and better distributed heat. Although you can always double and/or triple up on heat releasing string lights. I found it does't take too much supplemental heat has long as the trunk is multiple wrapped with a good insulation blankets.

Again, I've stated in other posts, that if the sun is shining brightly all day, I let the palm's trunk absorb as much of the sun's radiation as possible, warming the trunk up considerably. Then in the very late afternoon I then start wrapping the trunk with lots of good R-value insulation to help retain the heat from the trunk. That in itself might be enough to sustain the trunk overnight from freezing. Plus, the freezing point of palms will be below 32 degrees F anyway, due to the salts inside it.

I also saturate the ground the night before the freeze with my 75 degree well water so that sun can heat the wetter soil up. Wet soil can hold far more heat than dry soil. So some of the soil heat can then be re released at night, helping to protect the fronds. If anything, the extra heat may reduce the amount of hours the fronds see the lowest temperatures, leaving the more green, which would help with more photosynthesis for the palm to make food and recover sooner.

[Walt]

16 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Here's my.Mediterranean coconut. 

 

Alex, what variety is that one. I once read there's not much difference in cold hardiness among coconut varieties. I assume that means ultimate low temperatures. Now I wonder what variety might have the best chance of surviving in a warm Mediterranean climate.

[Walt]

21 hours ago, Walt said:

I checked the Sebring FAWN site report generator, and the coldest the soil got for Feb. 2018 was 58.24 degree F, and that was on Feb. 1st. But generally, the nighttime soil temperatures ranged mostly in the upper 60s and low 70s, reaching into the 80s during most days. The monthly average soil temperature at 10 centimeters depth was 74.05, and was 84.81. I myself, when I first got into the palm growing hobby thought well, if one is in USDA zone 10 or 11, they could grow a coconut palm with no problem. Then I did some research and found areas of southern California that were zone 11 -- and coconuts wouldn't grow there, but yet I could grow one in zone 9b, as long as I protected it on those one or two nights some winters. If I lived up in town where it runs 7-8 degrees warmer on the coldest nights,  I would never have to protect them. None of the coconut palm up in town were killed in 2010 -- all due to elevation and warm air inversion. This is another concept some folks living at or near sea level don't understand.

Today I plucked a very small coconut from my palm, just to see it it was eatable. I shook it and heard water sloshing around, so I cut the husk off, punched a hole in one of the eyes, drained it a smelled the water. It smelled sweet. I drank all of it. I then put the nut in the freezer and will remove it in the morning, break open the shell and extract the meat. Freezing it overnight helps separate the meat from the shell so you can remove it in larger pieces (leaned that from a YouTube video).

The nuts are very small, seemingly more small than usual. Maybe that's one reason they are called a Malayan dwarf. Still, they taste just as good.

Well, I removed my drained coconut from the freezer this morning and let it thaw. Later I took the dull side of a chef's knife and cracked the nut so I could extract the meat. I managed to get the meat out in one big white ball! I've done this before. Sometimes the freezer method works, sometimes it  doesn't. But I found freezing the nut does help remove the meat easier -- even if I can't get it all out in one ball -- easier. After I took these photos I broke the meat up some to get it into the storage container. I will have some later this evening. Both my wife and I like coconut meat -- as well as our three toy poodles. Of course, all of us eat it sparingly. 

[Tyrone]

On 21/09/2018, 2:23:04, sandgroper said:

Looks colder than Perth, maximum temps of 16c for three months are too cold I think but there's no reason you can't try. Good luck and I hope it grows well for you. 

It's colder than Albany. No hope of a coconut surviving. Try Beccariophoenix alfredii and it will thrive in Tunis and look great too.

[GottmitAlex]

56 minutes ago, Walt said:

Alex, what variety is that one. I once read there's not much difference in cold hardiness among coconut varieties. I assume that means ultimate low temperatures. Now I wonder what variety might have the best chance of surviving in a warm Mediterranean climate.

Hiya Walt!

It's a golden Malayan dwarf. My first coco. Two year old. Planted 30th August 2016. My "accident"(it wasn't until the coco was in transit when I researched and came to find out cocos officially dId not grow in SoCal.) . Because of this little guy, I went full Monty with cocos.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by GottmitAlex

[Walt]

Well, Alex, considering your coconut don't get that much direct sunlight, they look good. I can only surmise that if they got full sun, they would probably be further along.  I know the one I planted in far, far more shade (grown from my mother coconut), it's going to grow slower due to less photosynthesis. But, in my case, I planted mine under tree canopy mainly for frost protection. In your case, you have to work with the space you have, and I recall there was some kind of garage, house, or something (neighbor's?) that mostly block direct sun to your palms. Still, your palms are thriving, and that's the main thing.

BTW, is that some species of dragon fruit (Hylocereus) growing that palm trunk and on the fence? Looks like it has some spent flowers on it.

[GottmitAlex]

6 minutes ago, Walt said:

Well, Alex, considering your coconut don't get that much direct sunlight, they look good. I can only surmise that if they got full sun, they would probably be further along.  I know the one I planted in far, far more shade (grown from my mother coconut), it's going to grow slower due to less photosynthesis. But, in my case, I planted mine under tree canopy mainly for frost protection. In your case, you have to work with the space you have, and I recall there was some kind of garage, house, or something (neighbor's?) that mostly block direct sun to your palms. Still, your palms are thriving, and that's the main thing.

BTW, is that some species of dragon fruit (Hylocereus) growing that palm trunk and on the fence? Looks like it has some spent flowers on it.

Both undatus and megalanthus.

And yes, spot on with the neighbor which erected his second story last November. He has now early shaded my garden sliver. I'm praying for the time me cocos clear his roof. 

Thanks Walt. 

[Alicante]

Alexandria, Egypt (31°N) can grow them without problems. It's probably the city with the warmest winters in the Mediterranean Sea.

[Cluster]

I believe so Adam.

Did you find any cocos there, though? Would be nice to see.

 

[greysrigging]

Even Alexandria Egypt,  31.2 N, looks marginal. although on average warmer winters than Tunis

https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=00SrW-3GJYPk-AbbqJ_YCg&q=alexandria+egypt+climate&oq=alexandria+egypt+climate&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l2.11887.16330.0.18057.8.8.0.0.0.0.355.1947.2-5j2.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.7.1939...0i67k1.0.rvEWXG8Uquo

Tunis, Tunisia, 33.88 N..... original poster going to give it a go !

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tunis+climate&oq=Tunis+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i59j69i60j0l3.12177j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Perth, Western Australia. 31.95 S No coconuts unless extreme human intervention.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=perth+climate&oq=perth+climate&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10472j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Sydney Australia 33.85 S As above ^^

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sydney+climate&oq=Sydney+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.18632j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Cape Town, South Africa, 33.92 S No Coconuts

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=cape+town+climate&oq=cape+Town+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.23294j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Tyrone]

13 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Even Alexandria Egypt,  31.2 N, looks marginal. although on average warmer winters than Tunis

https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=00SrW-3GJYPk-AbbqJ_YCg&q=alexandria+egypt+climate&oq=alexandria+egypt+climate&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l2j0i22i30k1l2.11887.16330.0.18057.8.8.0.0.0.0.355.1947.2-5j2.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.7.1939...0i67k1.0.rvEWXG8Uquo

Tunis, Tunisia, 33.88 N..... original poster going to give it a go !

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tunis+climate&oq=Tunis+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i59j69i60j0l3.12177j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Perth, Western Australia. 31.95 S No coconuts unless extreme human intervention.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=perth+climate&oq=perth+climate&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10472j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Sydney Australia 33.85 S As above ^^

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sydney+climate&oq=Sydney+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.18632j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Cape Town, South Africa, 33.92 S No Coconuts

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=cape+town+climate&oq=cape+Town+climate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.23294j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There is a coconut in Perth without extreme intervention. I know of one and there will be others where people who are not palm people have just jagged it right and without any special care have grown them for many years. Morley Drive in Dianella there is a large one in a front yard.

[GottmitAlex]

13 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

There is a coconut in Perth without extreme intervention. I know of one and there will be others where people who are not palm people have just jagged it right and without any special care have grown them for many years. Morley Drive in Dianella there is a large one in a front yard.

There is also another one @ 33.8 north latitude. It snows, hails and freezes from time to time there.

The now-famous Corona coconut. 

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

With those Cape Town, South Africa winter temps, they should be able to grow them there!  Those average winter temps are comparable to what the average winter temps are in Port Isabel and South Padre Island, Texas, and to much of coastal Central Florida, both areas of which have mature producing Coconut Palms!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

My Green Malayan Dwarf Coconut Palm, that is now about 13ft. tall in overall height and has about 20 in. of woody trunk made it through 3.5 inches of snow last December and a temp of 31.8F with NO protection at all other than being planted on the southeast side of my house, and it made it through 5 more freezes last winter (3 of which got down into the upper 20'sF), with only minimal protection of some small incandescent Christmas lights strung around the trunk and lowermost crown and a blanket wrapped around the trunk.  It is now growing again like a weed, and has fully developed large leaves emerging.  Granted, Coconut Palms CAN'T take these kind of cold winter temps every winter and survive, but they CAN take such exposure and survive, IF these conditions only happen once every 4 to 6 years or more, and IF they are grown 100% ORGANICALLY, like I do with mine, and if they are not too small when planted in the ground.  When you grow everything 100% organically like I do, it can add 2F to 3F more cold hardiness to tropical trees and plants than they otherwise would have!  And that CAN make a world of difference in what you can and can't successfully grow in marginal areas.

John