Black Sunday in Thornleigh

[Mohsen]

We had a  cold night and morning frost 3 weeks ago and it last only maybe 3 hours of frost...honestly I wouldn't think its different from any of the previous one but not sure why my palms got that hit  not even sure if they are dead or alive and if there is any hope or not...my surprised was when my Archontophoenix cunninghamiana which also burnt ...

my beloved and used to be beautiful Wodyetia bifurcata  

 

my precious dypsis carlsmith  perhaps it was too ambitious project :

 

my used to be pretty Lepto :

I always pride of my Ravenea rivularis but now look at it   :

my   Kentiopsis oliviformis  just began showing some good growth  :

my used to be green dypsis baronii and dypsis pembana 

MY Beccariophoenix madagascariensis :

My small ( I guess dead My small  ) Cyphophoenix elegans :

my assume dead Normanbya normanbyi    :

very unhappy Chambeyronia macrocarpa  :

syagrus schizophylla :

my Dypsis decaryi seems get effected but not as badly as some , I hope it will be back :

my  Dypsis arenarum  seems damaged not badly and I hope it will recover :

we also have some established ( perhaps 20 years+ old) Archontophoenix cunninghamiana which also burnt...so not sure such a thing never happened in last 20 years or if it happened and they will come back to life again:

also another non palm trees after this cold :

Interesting was that my " Bismarckia" has not felt anything and seems happy which I suspect the reason is it got the sun sooner than other palms after the frost?

 

but also my small "Beccariophoenix alfredii " seems Ok, this one dint get sun sooner than the others and its beside my "Wodyetia bifurcata " and " " but it seems OK , maybe because it was not as tall as the others and had some protection ...but if I know it is really cold hardier than " Archontophoenix cunninghamiana" then I might get two from Ben and replace my " Dypsis leptocheilos" and " dypsis carlsmith " if I get sure they wont come back to life ?

now I think either I should sell the property and move or just plant more cold hardy (and less attractive to my taste) , I guess I cant fight nature  

also the pictures were talken 2-3 days after the cold day, now they are even worst... I used to watch my beautiful garden from my room/office and now I can see :   

 

[Matthew92]

Ouch! wow, looks like you haven't seed such cold in awhile. I'm so sorry to see such damage to your great selection of palms. I hope they can recover. I was recently reading an article on record cold in Australia and that it hadn't been that cold since the '70's. I see that as a clear sign that we in peninsular FL still need to watch out for such nasty cold despite the significant mild trend over the last 20 years or so.

[tim_brissy_13]

Wow Mohsen sorry to see that. I'd say your area must've gotted to around -3C for that kind of damage on relatively hardy palms.  We had a similar event last winter, although even here I've never seen mature A cunninghamiana burn like that.  At least warmer weather is just around the corner for you up there so I reckon most look like they'll eventually pull through.

[realarch]

Moshen, you must be devastated. On the positive side, looks like some of your palms will pull through. Hang in there, time will tell.

Tim

[Mohsen]

Thanks guys for the hopeful comments, the issue I have my wife was not a real fan in palms even when they were green and now ...I have her on my shoulder and I hope they can show some green side soon ...

[greysrigging]

Ahh mate... that's a bit of a mongrel thing to happen. Although not palms in my mother's garden out at Camden, the frosts there this winter has decimated the plants I put in 3 years ago. Camden and the Nepean River valley are no stranger to frosts, but the severe drought and temps as low as -5c  and literally weeks of below zero Celsius nights has really done a number on her garden at Carrington.

I wonder if  our US mates have the same problems with the Normans and Foxys. Knowing their natural habitat in far north Queensland I just cant imagine they would like any sort of temps approaching freezing.

[gyuseppe]

unbelievable, I never thought Sydney could be so cold

the minimum temperatures at how much have they come down?

[greysrigging]

The City and coastal suburbs are frost free but anywhere out west and inland from the coast is susceptible to frosts, especially in times of drought which generally means clear cloudless nights. My mothers place is 70klm south west of the city and sees frosts every winter, however this winter has had literally weeks and weeks of below freezing nights, and many we would class as 'severe'. As an aside, a vigorous winter frontal system passed through NSW yesterday with very low level snow falling in the Blue Mountains and dangerous out of control bushfires burning to the north and south of the Sydney basin. Never thought I would use the words 'snow' and 'bushfires' to describe a weather event in August in Australia !

[Daryl]

Wow Mohsen, sad to see such damage to your palms...hang in there though, some will surprise you. The Bizzie and B.alfredii come as no surprise as both seem to be very tough. Do you have any idea how cold it actually got in your garden?  Do you have a thermometer or weather station set up?

 

We had a rare (one in 100 year) frost here back in '07 and most of my stuff that wasn't under canopy pretty much looked like your palms. None of them died, fortunately, although the coconut never was the same afterwards.

 

Daryl

 

[Tyrone]

Oh no Mohsen. I'm staggered by the amount of damage you received at your place. I would hazard a guess that you saw a neg 4C or neg 5C event. As others have said a lot of it may recover although I doubt the Normanbya will. Even your foxtail might but I hope you have a ripper summer and don't see frost for a few years again. I feel for you having experienced something similar last year but thankfully the damage was nowhere near as extensive as yours. I can relate to that sinking feeling watching things deteriorate after a major frost event. You will learn from it though. Might need to get some frost canopy going to try and alleviate future cold snaps.

[Steve Mac]

That is terrible Mohsen, you were hit badly.

Researching a new suburb, perhaps more north and on the coast, may give you a more comfortable life in the future not only for the plants, but also for your family.

When I moved from Penrith to here on the coast, away from the terrible heat in summer and the freezing winters I did it for my own comfort, I could not tell a palm from a rose at the time. I was lucky I got a frost free suburb, I didn't know at the time there are some coastal areas that can still get frost, We only latter developed an interest in palms. I actually planted a sprouted coconut in the ground at Penrith and thought that it would grow, because we had a Phoenix rupicola and Butia capitata in the ground doing well.

Moving house is a terrible pain in the bum however, I would not do it just for the plants, as you realized yourself you may need to change your planting choices if you can't move. Good luck with the recoveries. 

[Palms4Steve]

So sorry to see so much damage Mohsen.

It has been a very cold winter . I even noticed a very slight frost on top of our car one morning here. I’ve never seen that before. It hasn’t helped with this drought either. I think most of your palms will come good, but I don’t think the foxtail and normanbya will.  

What helps is when you have plants densely planted together. They help protect each other. 

Cheers Steve

[PalmatierMeg]

How terrible, Mohsen. I feel badly for you. In Jan. 2010 we got to -2C one night 36 hours after a day of cold rain. I lost 30+ species of palms that year. My juvenile Dypsis pembana suffered only minor cold spotting so I'm sure your low had to be less than -2C. My large beautiful foxtail suffered a lot of damage. It survived but was never the same and started a long decline until I had it removed.

That said, I think a number of your palms will survive and come back when warm weather returns. You may need to give them extra time. I found some of my survivors didn't start growing again until June (early summer here), 6 months after the big cold blast. But I still had palms dying 9 months later. I suggest to mark spears to check on future growth.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

4 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Oh no Mohsen. I'm staggered by the amount of damage you received at your place. I would hazard a guess that you saw a neg 4C or neg 5C event. As others have said a lot of it may recover although I doubt the Normanbya will. Even your foxtail might but I hope you have a ripper summer and don't see frost for a few years again. I feel for you having experienced something similar last year but thankfully the damage was nowhere near as extensive as yours. I can relate to that sinking feeling watching things deteriorate after a major frost event. You will learn from it though. Might need to get some frost canopy going to try and alleviate future cold snaps.

That’s exactly my thought, -5c.  And I think it lasted longer than 3 hours, probably below freezing mor like 12.

[DoomsDave]

@Mohsenso sad to see! 

Been there, done that, and recovered from that. Still tough! I feel your pain oh heavens yes.

 

[DoomsDave]

@Mohsenso sad to see! 

Been there, done that, and recovered from that. Still tough! I feel your pain oh heavens yes.

 

[palmad Merc]

@Mohsenn

I'm sorry for your loss Mohsen

We were scraping frost off the surf boats at Long Reef beach on that cold Monday morning a few weeks back.

Never seen that before, these cold clear night's, lack of cloud cover.

Coldest, driest winter in a long time.

Things should start warming up soon and looks like good rain next weekend.

Hope you have some kind of recovery.

 

 

[greysrigging]

7 hours ago, Keith in SoJax said:

That’s exactly my thought, -5c.  And I think it lasted longer than 3 hours, probably below freezing mor like 12.

Looking at the damage to the plants you would think that for sure, but generally outside of elevated valleys in the mountains we don't get extended periods, ie all night, of killing frosts. I've been trolling through the weather records of nearby BOM reporting sites. The nights in question were on the 15th and 16th July and these sites all reported around zero to 1*c. Of course that's not to say that Mohsen's place did not drop below freezing....the pics of his palms clearly show the results of a killer freeze. Mohsen may well be in a localized 'frost hollow'.As we all know, minimum temps are recorded in a standard Stevenson Screen with the thermometers at 1.2m or 4' off the ground. Grass temps are usually much colder, in fact using Alice Springs ( Central Australian desert ) as an example, the BOM generally issues frost warnings at predicted minimums of 4c. So 4c in the screen can easily see ice on the grass. A nearby suburb to Mohsen's location ( Macquarie Park ) recorded a -3.5c in 1986 so historically severe frosts do happen and in these recent years of upward trending warmth, when the big frost does occur, it takes us all by surprise.

[Cindy Adair]

I am so very sorry!!!!

If you love everything else about where you live you could grow some of your favorites in pots moving them in and out (what a chore!) with inclement weather and have only bullet proof trees in the ground.

That is what I did for decades in Virginia where 20 degrees F was our average winter low. And ultimately my two greenhouses took up space and lots of time.

Or you can go for a move where you can maybe get even more land for your favorites like I did. It is so much fun to NEVER worry about frost again.

 

[wimmie]

I agree with those who advise to be patient. In 6 months time you will know more about the survival of your precious palms. Maybe some hydrogenperoxide in the top of the palms will be helpful. Succes!

[Josh76]

Sorry to see the damage but as others have said, I'm sure things will come back quickly once temps warm up. There's already a 21 degree day forecast for next Monday!

I'd be really curious to know what your min temp was though. In the Ravenea pic there is a Strelitzia reginae flowering so I can't imagine it would have gone much below -2 degrees without damaging that. Keep us updated.

[Tyrone]

47 minutes ago, Josh76 said:

Sorry to see the damage but as others have said, I'm sure things will come back quickly once temps warm up. There's already a 21 degree day forecast for next Monday!

I'd be really curious to know what your min temp was though. In the Ravenea pic there is a Strelitzia reginae flowering so I can't imagine it would have gone much below -2 degrees without damaging that. Keep us updated.

Strelitzias can take really cold temps and go fine.

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 17:46:59, greysrigging said:

Ahh mate... that's a bit of a mongrel thing to happen. Although not palms in my mother's garden out at Camden, the frosts there this winter has decimated the plants I put in 3 years ago. Camden and the Nepean River valley are no stranger to frosts, but the severe drought and temps as low as -5c  and literally weeks of below zero Celsius nights has really done a number on her garden at Carrington.

I wonder if  our US mates have the same problems with the Normans and Foxys. Knowing their natural habitat in far north Queensland I just cant imagine they would like any sort of temps approaching freezing.

Camedon is far  west and you can expect cold weather...but I dont understand why Thornleigh should be that cold...only 4 km away in Hornsby they have at least 5c warmer than us  

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 18:12:32, gyuseppe said:

unbelievable, I never thought Sydney could be so cold

the minimum temperatures at how much have they come down?

That's the thing if you search weather history in Thornleigh there is never any record of sub zero but I recorded -2 that morning...but I dont believe we had sub zero more than 3 hours max...I think the main reason palms that side of the house get more damaged is that they got sun around 10-11 AM but front of the house ( where my Bizzy was) got sun at 8:00 AM.

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 19:31:10, Daryl said:

Wow Mohsen, sad to see such damage to your palms...hang in there though, some will surprise you. The Bizzie and B.alfredii come as no surprise as both seem to be very tough. Do you have any idea how cold it actually got in your garden?  Do you have a thermometer or weather station set up?

 

We had a rare (one in 100 year) frost here back in '07 and most of my stuff that wasn't under canopy pretty much looked like your palms. None of them died, fortunately, although the coconut never was the same afterwards.

 

Daryl

 

Thanks Daryl

 

I dont think I had more than 3 hours sub zero, i recorded -2 not colder !

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 20:23:49, Tyrone said:

Oh no Mohsen. I'm staggered by the amount of damage you received at your place. I would hazard a guess that you saw a neg 4C or neg 5C event. As others have said a lot of it may recover although I doubt the Normanbya will. Even your foxtail might but I hope you have a ripper summer and don't see frost for a few years again. I feel for you having experienced something similar last year but thankfully the damage was nowhere near as extensive as yours. I can relate to that sinking feeling watching things deteriorate after a major frost event. You will learn from it though. Might need to get some frost canopy going to try and alleviate future cold snaps.

Tyrone, the weather report recorded 0 that morning I recorded -2 but not colder and it was only 3 hours ...not sure why the damages are that heavy , specially my  Archontophoenix cunninghamiana ...they are like weed in Sydney ...

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 20:33:06, gtsteve said:

That is terrible Mohsen, you were hit badly.

Researching a new suburb, perhaps more north and on the coast, may give you a more comfortable life in the future not only for the plants, but also for your family.

When I moved from Penrith to here on the coast, away from the terrible heat in summer and the freezing winters I did it for my own comfort, I could not tell a palm from a rose at the time. I was lucky I got a frost free suburb, I didn't know at the time there are some coastal areas that can still get frost, We only latter developed an interest in palms. I actually planted a sprouted coconut in the ground at Penrith and thought that it would grow, because we had a Phoenix rupicola and Butia capitata in the ground doing well.

Moving house is a terrible pain in the bum however, I would not do it just for the plants, as you realized yourself you may need to change your planting choices if you can't move. Good luck with the recoveries. 

Thanks Steve

I think the ultimate solution is moving to the coast...but only if I could afford...I should see if they wont come back toi replace them with something cold hardier...

[Mohsen]

On 19/08/2018, 23:29:59, Palms4Steve said:

So sorry to see so much damage Mohsen.

It has been a very cold winter . I even noticed a very slight frost on top of our car one morning here. I’ve never seen that before. It hasn’t helped with this drought either. I think most of your palms will come good, but I don’t think the foxtail and normanbya will.  

What helps is when you have plants densely planted together. They help protect each other. 

Cheers Steve

Thanks Steve

that's true, almost all of the palms got hit were not in groups...

[Mohsen]

22 hours ago, Keith in SoJax said:

That’s exactly my thought, -5c.  And I think it lasted longer than 3 hours, probably below freezing mor like 12.

as you can see below , the coldest ever in Thornleigh was 0.7 in 1996 but this year was 0 so it seems although I have recorded -2 but its interesting it seems we had the coldest  ever in July 2018 

[Mohsen]

15 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Looking at the damage to the plants you would think that for sure, but generally outside of elevated valleys in the mountains we don't get extended periods, ie all night, of killing frosts. I've been trolling through the weather records of nearby BOM reporting sites. The nights in question were on the 15th and 16th July and these sites all reported around zero to 1*c. Of course that's not to say that Mohsen's place did not drop below freezing....the pics of his palms clearly show the results of a killer freeze. Mohsen may well be in a localized 'frost hollow'.As we all know, minimum temps are recorded in a standard Stevenson Screen with the thermometers at 1.2m or 4' off the ground. Grass temps are usually much colder, in fact using Alice Springs ( Central Australian desert ) as an example, the BOM generally issues frost warnings at predicted minimums of 4c. So 4c in the screen can easily see ice on the grass. A nearby suburb to Mohsen's location ( Macquarie Park ) recorded a -3.5c in 1986 so historically severe frosts do happen and in these recent years of upward trending warmth, when the big frost does occur, it takes us all by surprise.

Thanks Doug, that's true I believe unfortunately we are in a frost hollow...alas I got interested in palms after we moved to this area...the Hornsby suburb 4 km away us and they never say cloder than 2-3c ever...

[Mohsen]

2 hours ago, wimmie said:

I agree with those who advise to be patient. In 6 months time you will know more about the survival of your precious palms. Maybe some hydrogenperoxide in the top of the palms will be helpful. Succes!

Thanks , I will wait, should I do hydrogenperoxide now or when its warmer?

[Mohsen]

1 hour ago, Josh76 said:

Sorry to see the damage but as others have said, I'm sure things will come back quickly once temps warm up. There's already a 21 degree day forecast for next Monday!

I'd be really curious to know what your min temp was though. In the Ravenea pic there is a Strelitzia reginae flowering so I can't imagine it would have gone much below -2 degrees without damaging that. Keep us updated.

Thanks, My recotd showed -2 not colder and not even for long period...

[palmad Merc]

There is plenty of rain forecast this weekend, after that the temps look like increasing.

Keep that in mind when peroxiding.

[Palm Tree Jim]

Hopefully in time, you palms come back from this event.

This is just the reality we live with in this crazy hobby of ours.

[Pip]

Fingers crossed the palms bounce back. That damage to your neighbors monstera is just amazing I've never seen one get fried like that. 

[palmfriend]

Mohsen,

same over here but not regarding the lower temps - no, here it is all about the wind (coming with the typhoons).

A year ago I felt desperate like you at the moment, when typhoon Talim hit our island which caused great concern

regarding my exotic palms (99% grown from seeds I bought internationally) , but at the same moment I started to plant 

"tough locals" (eg., Satakentias and Liv. Chinensis) to keep my garden going, just in case that every other plant 

might get wiped out... My thoughts were, once I have established a (covering) crowd of local palms in my yard, I might grow 

more sensible ones again... It takes time, of course, and I will probably never be sure if my plants will succeed but that

is the fun and motivation of our hobbies, it will keep you busy and focused  

In your case, I would try to establish some protecting plants for your surviving tropics and would let go the zone pushers -

just my two cents.

Best regards from Miyako, Okinawa

Lars

 

[Mohsen]

Thanks again for your thoughts and nice advises , about my Bec  alfredii, still not sure why it didn’t get damage , are they cold hardier than Archontophoenix cunninghamiana , if yes and I might get more of those ?

[rprimbs]

Dang!  I would get some frost blankets and throw them over the palms in the future, when you know some cold weather is coming.

[quaman58]

Mohsen,

Wow, now that's some cold damage. Sorry for that. We had a similar event in 2007, where the temps dipped several degrees below freezing for a number of nights. The coastal canyons acted like a funnel & the cold air just settled wherever it got trapped. I remember someone referring to it as "cold lava", since it ran downhill. Even the Washingtonias were severely burned in the canyons & mature A. cunnighamianas were outright killed in my neighborhood. So you have my sympathy. My takeaway from that event was that if the entire plant was fried (even if the spear was green) the chances of it surviving were low. Some palms tried to grow out of it, but were taken out by infections before they could. (Although in fairness a number of your palms look more established than were mine; a definite benefit). On the other hand, a number of palms that showed severe, but incomplete burn on the leaves generally did very well. Like the picture of your D. decaryi & arenarium, among others. The good news is that for us, it has not occurred since to that degree & now the jungle is much more established & hopefully more resilient. So, soldier on. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it..

Bret

 

[Tyrone]

7 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks again for your thoughts and nice advises , about my Bec  alfredii, still not sure why it didn’t get damage , are they cold hardier than Archontophoenix cunninghamiana , if yes and I might get more of those ?

Becarriophoenix alfredii is a super tough plant. My Phoenix roebellinis were really frost damaged last year, something I'd never seen before but by comparison my B alfredii's right next to the Phoenix barely even tinged. That cold event burnt all the new growth off my Szygiums in the same area and I even had frost damage on my olive trees. Even the Eucalyptus trees had frost damage.