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Suggestions for 8b dappled shade?


Manalto

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Hello everyone, I'm really glad I found this forum. I've been browsing the discussions and have already developed a serious case of 'zone envy' for the great variety of palms one can grow in a frost-free climate.

I'm originally from New England, so even Gulf Coast Alabama feels like the tropics to me. I bought a house here last summer and would like to add some palms to the landscape because I've only got a few, which is not nearly enough! Currently, there is a big Sabal palmetto, a Chamaerops humilis, a Rhapis excelsa, an XButiagrus nabonnandii and several Sabal minor (about 20) growing in the shade of a big live oak. Pretty standard, unexciting stuff, I guess, but they're exciting for me. They're all doing fine except the Rhapis got knocked back to nothing last winter when the temperatures went into the teens. It's recovering slowly.

The aforementioned live oak is 90' wide, creating an environment of bright shade, where S. minor is clearly happy and producing new seedlings all the time. I've done some removal of weed trees (camphor tree - ARRRGH!) since this photo was taken, so it's just a live oak canopy and pretty much a blank slate below. Can you suggest a nice understory palm (if one exists) that is adapted to Mobile's humid and rainy (~ 70"/year) climate?

Thanks!

James

Live oak Chickasaw.jpg

Edited by Manalto
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These are a few suggestions:

Native to the Southeast: Needle Palm (Rhapidophyllum Hystrix), Saw Palmetto(Serenoa Repens)

Others of Possible Interest: Chamaedorea radicalis(?), Nannorrhops richiana (?)

Potential tree form palms depending on height of canopy: Butia species (capitata, odorata, eriospatha, yatay), Butiagrus (Mule Palm), Trachycarpus wagnerianus?

There are tons more palms that will grow well in zone 8b.  You have overhead canopy, which will help a great deal.  I attached a list that might help you with your selection process.

Welcome to the forum!

Palms_8b.xlsx

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Mazari wont do well in that setting. C. Radicalis if you want a palm but cycads would look better in that area IMO. Cycas Micholotzii, diannensis, guizhihounsis, debaoensis hybrids or even ceratozamia hildae, latifolia or kuesteriana.  

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Thank you for the welcome and I appreciate the suggestions, particularly Chamaedorea radicalis, which sounds like it would do well here. Possibly also C. microspadix?

I was wondering what I would do at the corners of the property, which are tempting pedestrian cut-through areas. (A could put up a fence, but thorny plants are more devious...) I've planted a few Poncirus trifoliata, but I like Rhapidophyllum for the job too.

Since I've had to remove a couple of unstable lower branches of the oak, the canopy is quite high, about 30' or so. A tree would not be a problem. However, the form of the oak is great and I want to choose carefully so as not to spoil the effect.

I have a friend here in Mobile who has a big palm outside his living room window, blocking an unsightly view. It might be a tree seedling; a fan palm with huge leaves with pendant leaf tips. I wouldn't mind doing the same outside my kitchen window so I don't have to see my next door neighbor on his back steps scratching himself indiscreetly. :blush:

I wondered about the Mazari - and also the Butia. I have a sunny area on the other side of the house for the sun-loving species, but we do get high rainfall here. (I got my Mule palm in Mississippi from Michael Gautier, who told me to plant it high.)

Cycads are a great idea. I have a few Zamia pumila. Cycas revoluta are overdone here (they still look good when they have some shade) but your list of suggestions will now have me off Googling up a storm. Thanks!

Edited by Manalto
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@Manalto

If you want something thorny that is also a palm, I can suggest phoenix theophrasti.  You have high canopy and probably enough space, but trimming them is a chore meant for armored knights.  Guaranteed that no one without a chainsaw wants to mess with those when they are mature. 

If you just want something that will block a nasty view, podocarpus does a good job when it is mature and there are a variety of bamboos that work well.  If you decide to try bamboo, make sure you get a clumping type instead of a running type.  If you're desperate just to have something that grows in quick to block a view, a big clump of bananas will typically grow to full size in one season but get burned in the winter and start from the ground in the spring in your climate. I grow dwarf cavendish and ice cream bananas.  Ice cream is probably too tender for your area, but an internet search should yield tons of different hardy bananas you could use.

@TexasColdHardyPalms is right about mazari palms having issues in that setting, and they do prefer dry climates as well.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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This property had been neglected for many years so I had to cut down a fair number of trees, which has left me feeling like I'm in Macy's window sometimes. This year I planted castor beans as a temporary screen, but I like your idea of ice cream bananas. Do you know if they are the same as platano manzano from the Caribbean (Cuba)? Delicious! I checked a few "Comments" sections and it seems that they are worth a try here in Zone 8b. If I grow bananas, I want them to be edible, since the ones in the grocery store aren't!

Cycas debaoensis is a stunner! Wow!

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@Manalto

Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think platano manzano is from a different genome than the blue java a.k.a. Ice Cream banana.  While the list is more Florida oriented, this might help you as much as it helps me: http://www.growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/bananavarieties.htm

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Yes, they are different species. I wouldn't bother with Ice cream sp., plant a lot of Basjoo for tropical look and give a Orinoco or Namwah a try.

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Microspadix works too but radicalis are several degrees hardier.  Phoenix theophrastii will work as well. i have a great deal on 5g theos. 

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7 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Microspadix works too but radicalis are several degrees hardier.

After some further scouting around, I realize those degrees are critical here. It can get down into the teens after several mild winters and wipe out the more tender species. Radicalis is a graceful-looking palm; a cluster of them would be nice near the house (still in the shade of the oak). I see there are 'trunked' and 'trunkless' forms. Is that seedling variability or are they selected forms?

Is it acceptable in this forum to ask about sources for C. radicalis? Maybe someone here has them for sale?

Edited by Manalto
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Yes they certainly are, we're 8a/8b ourselves. Radicalis are all trunking, some just get a lot bigger than others. 

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On 7/31/2018, 9:49:26, Manalto said:

Hello everyone, I'm really glad I found this forum. I've been browsing the discussions and have already developed a serious case of 'zone envy' for the great variety of palms one can grow in a frost-free climate.

I'm originally from New England, so even Gulf Coast Alabama feels like the tropics to me. I bought a house here last summer and would like to add some palms to the landscape because I've only got a few, which is not nearly enough! Currently, there is a big Sabal palmetto, a Chamaerops humilis, a Rhapis excelsa, an XButiagrus nabonnandii and several Sabal minor (about 20) growing in the shade of a big live oak. Pretty standard, unexciting stuff, I guess, but they're exciting for me. They're all doing fine except the Rhapis got knocked back to nothing last winter when the temperatures went into the teens. It's recovering slowly.

The aforementioned live oak is 90' wide, creating an environment of bright shade, where S. minor is clearly happy and producing new seedlings all the time. I've done some removal of weed trees (camphor tree - ARRRGH!) since this photo was taken, so it's just a live oak canopy and pretty much a blank slate below. Can you suggest a nice understory palm (if one exists) that is adapted to Mobile's humid and rainy (~ 70"/year) climate?

Thanks!

James

Live oak Chickasaw.jpg

Go to the Mobile Botanical Gardens and talk to Bill Finch the director. Or email him. He says cidp and citrus, bananas, livistona, mule palms, etc will all do well there. There are large old phoenix palms in and around Mobile. I've been there in winter like three times. Also you can grow filibusta and robusta there. Even phoenix dactl can grow there. The true date palm.

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Bill is no longer with MBG, unfortunately. I should meet him one of these days, though, (he's still here, as far as I know) and pick his brain. They had a brilliant young woman, Amanda Wilkins, working at the Garden (Curator of Collections, I believe) and we had a good rapport going, but she's out too. I don't know the particulars, but this dynamic seems to be true of botanical gardens in general. You'd think the atmosphere for people surrounded by such beauty would be all Zen-peaceful and back-to-the-Earth, but personality clashes and politics seem to reign. The fighting is fierce because the stakes are so low.

I'm having a blast gardening in this climate. The range of plant material is huge, because it seems to be the overlap of the southernmost limit of many temperate species and the northernmost limit of many subtropicals. Good to know about the Phoenix. I've seen a few of them around - big, impressive ones - but need to learn to identify the species. Interesting that what I imagine to be desert palms thrive in this humidity. It's a little too cold for "mainstream" citrus (lemon, lime, orange, grapefruit), but kumquat and satsuma do well. Satsuma is the name of the town just north of here.

 

 

Edited by Manalto
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I really should have asked exactly what part of Mobile you are in as downtown is significantly warmer than on the northwest side of town out in the country.

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