Dypsis tokoravina

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Here's another large Dypsis that is doing well, so long as I keep the gingers and other surrounding plants from covering it up.  This was sold to me as "tokoravina," but candidly I still have a hard time differentiating the big Dypsis varieties - Carlsmithii, robusta, prestoniana, etc.

DSC08732.jpg

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I have one also, and when I post photos people say it is D. prestoniana. But when I look at them together, I see differences. Mine is throwing out an inflorescence right now! Totally unexpected. I hope to get pix of it when it emerges, that will tell me if it is D. prestoniana or "other".

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018‎ ‎12‎:‎42‎:‎19‎, Justin said:

Here's another large Dypsis that is doing well, so long as I keep the gingers and other surrounding plants from covering it up.  This was sold to me as "tokoravina," but candidly I still have a hard time differentiating the big Dypsis varieties - Carlsmithii, robusta, prestoniana, etc.

DSC08732.jpg

Is this in the Pahoa garden?

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Yes it is.  Hopefully it is still there...

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Hopefully the SO2 gases have not hurt yours or Kim's palms.

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Most of the palms handle it quite well, and some are completely unfazed by it. A few that seem to have a difficult time include Dictyocaryum, Iriartea, some of the slender Dypsis (quite a few simply lost their crowns), Lemurophoenix (I have five smaller ones that are probably dead - the larger ones are suffering but will probably make it). Large Dypsis, Voanioala, Pelagodoxa and Clinostigmas for instance are totally fine. There is of course a wide spectrum here, from the ones that are really suffering (to the point of dying) to the ones that are perfectly OK and then a whole bunch in between. Marojejya seems to fall "in the middle" - some fronds turning brown, but nothing that appears to be fatal. Now that the eruption has paused, or hopefully stopped, there's hope for recovery for all the ones that are still alive - the overwhelming majority. :)

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I bought a palm at bgl's closeout a few years ago that was "Jurassic Park", or tokoravina, or maybe pilulifera. Now, it has flowered. Since the inflorescence is intrafoliar, it is either prestoniana or tokoravina. I sent pictures to John Dransfield, and he thinks prestoniana, but would like to see what the seeds look like to be sure. Apparently, there is some difference in the size and shape of the seeds. The pictures below are of the palm with inflorescence and a closeup of the 9 1/2- ft long inflorescence. ornage bucket is 5-gal, and a red plastic ribbon marks the end of the inflorescence.

5b82f2875b823_prestonianawithinflorescen

5b82f2813b167_prestonianainflorescence_1

This from the old sugar cane area mauka of Hwy. 11 near Kurtistown in Lava Zone 3. I did something right in choosing my property, but deserve no credit. Properties in Leilani with soil were unavailable at a cost I could afford at the time i was looking. I'm sure I had around 40 inches of rain or more from Lane, but my hillside lot is incapable of holding ponded water except in a few low spots where it seeps in quickly.

 

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Mike - I had heard reports that your area was hit by a significant amount of rain. Glad things are OK for you! :D :greenthumb:

 

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@mike in kurtistown I have this same question. I have both D. Prestoniana and an alleged Jurassic Park/tokoravina. Right now both are producing seed, not yet fully formed, and I hope to hear opinions whether the palms are distinct or the same. 

D. prestoniana

FF4DE92F-92C9-4273-A778-C61291C05F6A.thu

45B3357D-8A00-4C4D-AE82-057F13E190A8.jpe

6AB63370-B66E-4BDF-A451-B8FF4402B05D.thu

D. “Jurassic Park”

A2600C7F-E03E-4FDB-835F-1EAC6C794B3C.thu

F598C86B-C0D0-4E3B-8BB6-ECD39D23F475.thu

5742E11E-2AD8-480B-A8BC-FC8A3C52BA3A.jpeg

Opinions?

 

Sorry, can't seem to remove this repeat photo of D. prestoniana.

45B3357D-8A00-4C4D-AE82-057F13E190A8.jpeg

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Kim, it would be nice if you could measure the length of the inflorescence of the first one with the trunk and hidden behind the leaves, but I think it would be quite difficult given how high off the ground that it is. If these photos were shown to John Dransfield, he would want to know that length, also the color of the leaf bases and the size and shape of the ripe seeds. Maybe you might want to hang on to a few of the seeds.

 

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Maybe I will get out my ladder and the tape measure later today. The seeds are not ripe yet, and I won't be here when they ripen. Maybe I can get a friend to collect seed when they are ripe. There are flowers on the ground under the Tokoravina, I'll try to get some photos. I have photos from Bo's D. prestoniana when it hd bees buzzing in the flowers. That is usually how we discover they are flowering, because the inflorescence is hidden up in the leaves and you don't really notice it until you hear all the bees.

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Might I suggest being very careful on the ladder...ask me how I know... :D 

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@BS Man about Palms Haha, I was definitely thinking of you as I steadied the ladder...

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Well, this wasn't so easy with the prestoniana. :rolleyes:  So here is a puzzle for all you math/botany geeks: I put up my not-so-tall 6-ft. ladder and climbed to the 4th step. That is 46 inches off the ground. I am 62 inches tall. My chin was equal to the base of the crownshaft. Extending my tape measure from the top of my head, it was about 60 more inches to the first branch on the inflorescence.  If anyone can extrapolate the length of the inflorescence from that, go for it! I discovered there are in fact 3 inflorescences on the palm, the lowest one being the largest. (I can't explain why). All my efforts to photograph the other two inflos were unsuccessful. (Right, I know that doesn't help.) So the question remains, how big is Kim's head?

DSC_5834.thumb.jpg.f53538d7bd1d95fdfb22b

DSC_5835.thumb.jpg.c9025d2a5271facb39827

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Okay! So the Jurassic Park was much easier, being not so tall. The inflorescence was measured as 110 inches in length as measured from where it emerged from the trunk, including the entire curve.DSC_5846.thumb.jpg.63800af5242677f77017a

I made an attempt to capture flower photos, and will search in my archives for D. prestoniana flowers.

These photos can be greatly enlarged, as the originals are large files.

DSC_5848.thumb.jpg.b872513a75ef6c708a205

DSC_5850.thumb.jpg.42ebbd4eea551c5286e02DSC_5851.thumb.jpg.0f833f4c8ee4e41f1352b

Hoping the questions can be resolved.

 

 

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there are a few forms of prestoniana around, which add to the confusion surrounding the identity of the true toko... to me it all comes down to the “openness” of the leaf sheaths, the slightly wider leaflets, and the more extreme curvature of the rachis that identify toko.

prestoniana sheaths are more snug to the crown:

973FB3E7-3677-4495-A176-01A52BCE3A4A.thu

whereas toko holds more leaves with the sheaths extremely loose and spreading (almost Ravenea-esque) and a less spectacular inflorescence:

49BBDEFC-C020-4F4E-A831-9468A254C1CC.thu

 

photos via the field guide

 

my rule of thumb is that if it looks like it has a crownshaft, it is presto, if it looks like a plumose Ravenea with square shoulders it’s a toko

Edited by knell
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I found the photos of the D. prestoniana flowers on Bo's palm when it bloomed in September 2017.  His palm has the identical characteristics as my D. prestoniana. I think I see a difference in the flowers. Both are 3-petaled flowers, but the D. prestoniana flowers have more stamens. I can really zoom these photos on my computer, and it looks like 6 on D. prestoniana and only 4 on D. "Jurassic Park" but I'd like to have someone more authoritative make the comparison.

D. prestoniana flowers

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DSC_1062.thumb.jpg.662ed12121391abc77e69

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Wow... I should go check out my little flowers on the ground..!

 

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Good Lord Kim, that palm has really grown! I think I'm gonna mosey on down and see how mine are doing.

Tim 

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3 hours ago, realarch said:

Good Lord Kim, that palm has really grown! I think I'm gonna mosey on down and see how mine are doing.

Tim 

If this thing keeps going the way it has, I'll qualify for the US women's Olympic weightlifting team in a couple of years. Those fronds are getting really heavy! The bases are solid like teak timber.

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Distinguishing these giant dypsis is really tricky at the moment. It was all so much easier when we had very few specimens in the herbarium, limited field experience and no information from cultivation! At the time the book (POM) went to press we thought we could clearly distinguish tokoravina from prestoniana by the densely scaly rachillae in prestoniana and the sparsely scaly or glabrous rachillae of tokoravina (but note that in the case of the latter we only had dead inflorescences to work with). There was a general gestalt difference that is brought out nicely in the two photos on p169 of POM. The dense white sheaths of prestoniana seemed very distinctive, while the rusty scaly sheaths of tokoravina seems distinctive. There was a geographical difference with tokoravina being known only from Antanambe north to Masoala, while prestoniana seemed confined to the south. Tokoravina was a palm of humid rain forest while prestoniana seemed to be in drier habitats, while still being in forest.These two palms were so distinctive in their huge size and open sheaths. Since then the picture has been muddied by our awareness that prestoniana is very variable in the wild, sometimes even approaching larger forms of D. madagascariensis. Tokoravina when fully grown in the forest is for me instantly identifiable. How on earth to deal with the wealth of developing palms in cultivation? Well, in some ways your guesses are as good as mine.What do we need to go forward? I think we need really good authentic wild source herbarium material of tokoravina complete with fresh inflorescences and fruit to complement the type specimen from Masoala. This will give a much better handle to any variation that exists, and we'll then be able to make better comparisons. At the moment, I am stilll waiting for the results of the DNA study carried out by Wolf Eiserhardt, who used to work at Kew but who has moved to Aarhus in Denmark. His work has been continued by Sidonie Bellot at Kew. I am hopeful that their study will throw light on relationships and groupings within Dypsis. In the meantime I would really like to reserve judgement. Can you please look at the rachillae and see if they are densely scaly/puberulous?

In all this discussion I have neatly dodged the issue of D. robusta!

John 

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My thanks to John Dransfield, from whom I requested a comment. I thought that the difference in the size and location (straight up, or jutting out from the crown) of the inflorescence might be diagnostic, but it seems that that the variability in prestoniana is too great for that to be true. So I will just enjoy my big palm from Madagascar. I don't need a firm name for that.

 

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Thanks for dropping in, John.

Like Mike, I'd hoped the contrasting inflorescence might distinguish one Dypsis from another, plus I thought flowers and seeds were all-powerful indicators of species. :rolleyes: Oops. Then I hear from a fellow palm nerd that certain people see at least four variations on D. prestoniana, and each has a cute nickname. How incredibly difficult it would be to work with dried herbarium samples to determine species!  The DNA study results should be very interesting. DNA studies, together with detailed digital photos of palms in habitat and GPS coordinates may someday solve many palm mysteries. Or maybe they will all be declared a single palm and renamed Dypsis polymorpha. ;)

Good call sidestepping D. robusta. It has lots of relatives with cute nicknames, too.

I'm not in Hawaii anymore, so photos will be subjected to intense scrutiny to determine the surface texture of the rachillae.

Any chance of getting Wolf and Sidonie to weigh in here on PalmTalk?

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