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Brownsville Climate


LF-TX

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Texas, being a big state, has a wide range of climates. You have arid towards the west, subtropical towards the east, colder temps north, and warmer temps south. For a long time I’ve been questioning Köppen’s classification for Brownsville / Eastern Cameron county. At NOAA’s averages for this area, we fall into a subtropical climate. Now, what troubles me is the plain, visible differences in the vegetation of Brownsville/surrounding areas to that of areas outside of the lower RGV. For those that have visited/ are natives to this area, it’s clear that Brownsville is visibly a lot more tropical that most areas of the Valley outside of the Lower Valley. Once you leave north of Harlingen TX, the landscape becomes a lot more barren and sad, dry. However, in areas like Bayview, Los Fresnos, and Brownsville (mainly mid and east), boom, green. Granted, since we don’t live on mars, of course it’s going to be green, but this area has an abundance of vegetation in comparison to the rest of the Valley and South Texas. Brownsville has a notable ability to sustain tropical palms fruits such as mangos, papayas, guavas, etc, and, like mentioned in several forum posts, coconuts. Now, while Brownsville isn’t a garden of Eden for tropical plants since it does get cold, the fact that they're sustained well here goes to show that the deep southern Valley exhibits tropical characteristics. While NOAA’s temperature averages begs to differ, Brownsville natives know well that this area is starkly different in comparison to other places that fall under the humid subtropical climate category. The Valley has a climate that is different in so many ways when placed next to that of major subtropical cities like Houston, New Orleans, Memphis, Atlanta, Raleigh, & Little Rock. Brownsville visibly belongs to a curious climate. While there’s no getting around the fact that Brownsville doesn’t have a true tropical climate due to cold snaps, I personally think that this region of the lower Rio Grande Valley merits to be considered as on the threshold of a tropical savannah climate. 

1) As mentioned, the presence of tropical plants in this areas shows that the infrequent, while sometimes strong, cold snaps aren’t enough to rob this area of its tropical look, or at least the presence of tropical plants 2) NOAA’s averages for the Brownsville area include outlier temperatures that don’t provide a reliable testament to our climate. Yes, severe freezes have and do happen in this area, but our climate - our prevailing conditions - is anything but close to the period of time in which the horrendous freezes of the 80s lasted. 3) While southern Texas is almost entirely not shielded by blue northerns, but perhaps a slightly similar phenomena that occurs with the state of Florida occurs with the Brownsville area. As many of us know, Florida is a peninsula. Surrounded by warm water. This is a wonderful advantage with wonderful results in protection against the bitter cold that dips down into the southern US. The warming effect of the ocean allows for areas of south Florida to enjoy an absolutely beautiful tropical climate. Now, looking at the other side of the Gulf of Mexico you’ll see the Southern Texas Coast. When one looks at the map, you can see that the immediate coast of the Rio Grande Valley slightly bends out towards the gulf and just slightly retards the “C” curve that the entire western Gulf of Mexico has. Could this be why Brownsville is the site where near tropical characteristics spike and continue to gradually increase as one goes down the coast into Mexico? Could the Gulf’s warming effect and the Valley’s coastal bend be the reason why Brownsville and Matamoros enjoy a visibly warmer climate and are slightly “blanketed” temperature-wise during cold snaps?

Since all this has all been a personal opinion and a curious observation, I may be wrong and my suggestion that brownsville be given a *default* tropical classification instead of subtropical may be erroneous. What do y’all think?

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26 minutes ago, LF-TX said:

1) As mentioned, the presence of tropical plants in this areas shows that the infrequent, while sometimes strong, cold snaps aren’t enough to rob this area of its tropical look, or at least the presence of tropical plants 2) NOAA’s averages for the Brownsville area include outlier temperatures that don’t provide a reliable testament to our climate. Yes, severe freezes have and do happen in this area, but our climate - our prevailing conditions - is anything but close to the period of time in which the horrendous freezes of the 80s lasted. 3) While southern Texas is almost entirely not shielded by blue northerns, but perhaps a slightly similar phenomena that occurs with the state of Florida occurs with the Brownsville area. As many of us know, Florida is a peninsula. Surrounded by warm water. This is a wonderful advantage with wonderful results in protection against the bitter cold that dips down into the southern US. The warming effect of the ocean allows for areas of south Florida to enjoy an absolutely beautiful tropical climate. Now, looking at the other side of the Gulf of Mexico you’ll see the Southern Texas Coast. When one looks at the map, you can see that the immediate coast of the Rio Grande Valley slightly bends out towards the gulf and just slightly retards the “C” curve that the entire western Gulf of Mexico has. Could this be why Brownsville is the site where near tropical characteristics spike and continue to gradually increase as one goes down the coast into Mexico? Could the Gulf’s warming effect and the Valley’s coastal bend be the reason why Brownsville and Matamoros enjoy a visibly warmer climate and are slightly “blanketed” temperature-wise during cold snaps?

Since all this has all been a personal opinion and a curious observation, I may be wrong and my suggestion that brownsville be given a *default* tropical classification instead of subtropical may be erroneous. What do y’all think?

I have never been to the Rio Grande valley, but here is my two cents:

American settlers migrated south along the Gulf coast, and stopping just short of where malaria was too severe. The Rio Grande valley, thus functionally agriculturally and politically, out of the tropics, while functioning as a political border.

1.) Native tropical plants are an indicator of an ecozone

2.) In any regression analysis, it is very important to look at all of the data.  The only time that outliers should be taken out is if the data point is inaccurate.   With regards to climate, extremes are more important to consider than averages.  The all time record low of Brownsville is 12F.

3.) That might have more to do with the local topography effecting ocean currents.  Clockwise spins in the ocean draws warmer water.

Brevard County, Fl

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11 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I have never been to the Rio Grande valley, but here is my two cents:

American settlers migrated south along the Gulf coast, and stopping just short of where malaria was too severe. The Rio Grande valley, thus functionally agriculturally and politically, out of the tropics, while functioning as a political border.

1.) Native tropical plants are an indicator of an ecozone

2.) In any regression analysis, it is very important to look at all of the data.  The only time that outliers should be taken out is if the data point is inaccurate.   With regards to climate, extremes are more important to consider than averages.  The all time record low of Brownsville is 12F.

3.) That might have more to do with the local topography effecting ocean currents.  Clockwise spins in the ocean draws warmer water.

While definitely not tropical, the flora and fauna of the RGV definitely has a tropical influence. Many plants reach their northern limit in the RGV and/or belong to tropical genera. This includes most of the native trees: Ebenopsis ebano, Leucaena pulverulenta, Ehretia anacua, Cordia boissieri, Esenbeckia runyonii, Condalia hookeri, Bumelia celastrina, Zanthoxylum fagara. The RGV is also a popular birding destination because many tropical species are resident to the area. It is also one of the only places in the U.S. with native ocelot and jaguarundi populations. 

I don't think focusing on the 12F record low set in 1899 is fair. Much of the native vegetation is rated zone 9b, 9a at best. So yes, a major freeze will impact even the native plants. However such events are relatively rare, allowing for regeneration. Brownsville has not seen temperatures below 28F since 1989. 

Personally, I don't think the tropics begin until you go a little south of the Tropic of Cancer. Somewhere between there and Tampico in southern Tamaulipas. This also happens to be about where averages reach the 64.4F threshold and record lows are in the mid-high 20s.  

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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@LF-TX, the dryness there is also quite puzzling, less than 30' of rain annually, yet right on the coast. Given the similar latitude to Miami, it's clear that it's the summer/warm season that "drops the ball" in regards to precipitation.

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 Excellent summary. There is no question that the lower RGV valley is much closer to Tropical per Koppen and  does not deserve to be characterized as humid subtropical. 

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What you look for is what is looking

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@LF-TX  You're not crazy. McAllen to Del Rio and much of North Eastern Mexico is classified as a BSh which is between a humid subtropical and desert, very similar to much of the Australian outback. 

Brownville Climate is very unique and floats between four different Koppen classifications depending on the year: 

Brownsville has a humid subtropical climate (Köppen Cfa),[23] just outside a hot semi-arid climate. Its winter temperatures are slightly cooler than would qualify for a tropical savanna climate (Aw). Years with above-average temperatures are not rare and occasionally land the city in a tropical climate.  I think as time progresses Brownsville will end up in the Tropical climate for good, with McAllen staying in that BSh classification. 

Even though we had lowest temperatures recorded in the last 30 years, our last freeze was Feb 12th in Dallas which is the second earliest in history. The only earlier freeze was last year at January 17 two full months before the average.  

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On 3/12/2018, 10:47:52, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

@LF-TX  You're not crazy. McAllen to Del Rio and much of North Eastern Mexico is classified as a BSh which is between a humid subtropical and desert, very similar to much of the Australian outback. 

Brownville Climate is very unique and floats between four different Koppen classifications depending on the year: 

Brownsville has a humid subtropical climate (Köppen Cfa),[23] just outside a hot semi-arid climate. Its winter temperatures are slightly cooler than would qualify for a tropical savanna climate (Aw). Years with above-average temperatures are not rare and occasionally land the city in a tropical climate.  I think as time progresses Brownsville will end up in the Tropical climate for good, with McAllen staying in that BSh classification. 

Even though we had lowest temperatures recorded in the last 30 years, our last freeze was Feb 12th in Dallas which is the second earliest in history. The only earlier freeze was last year at January 17 two full months before the average.  

I’m almost certain that the lower RGV will get a tropical classification in the near future! Hopefully climate change grants us tropical status witout any other problems. Although I’m sure the rising sea levels aren’t going anywhere anytime soon :blink:

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I heard on NPR a few weeks ago that Galveston has seen one of the highest sea level rises in the entire world; something like 2' in the last 100 years.  

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How long (year wise) do you think it will take for the climate in the RGV to be considered tropical? 

Edited by PalmTreeDude

PalmTreeDude

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4 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

How long (year wise) do you think it will take for the climate in the RGV to be considered tropical? 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/winters-are-warming-all-across-the-us-15590

According to this source, in the state of Texas, our winters (consisting of the months December, January, & February : two of which have average temps below 64° in Brownsville) have warmed about 0.6° per decade between the years of 1970 and 2012. When one takes Brownsville’s average (NOAA) temperatures of the winter months I just mentioned, you’ll come out with 62.5°F. That’s the average winter temperature for the city of Brownsville. Now, while I think that this is slightly lower than it should be (the almost unprecedented freezes of the 80s are included in the data), let’s say that we’re going to keep this 62.5° in the picture. If you add the 0.6° that Texas winters warm every decade, Brownsville will pass the 64° mark between the within the next 20-30 years, then qualifying it as a tropical climate. So, that’s the time range in my opinion. Within the next 20-30 years, or possibly within the next 15-25 years, Brownsville will gain tropical climate status. 

B9E8B932-E674-4C82-88FA-6957AF5BE636.jpeg

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What do you guys think would happen to Brownsville if the same weather conditions that brought the 1989 freeze reoccurred next winter?  What do you speculate on what the minimum temperature will be for Brownsville, and why?

Brevard County, Fl

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6 hours ago, Jimbean said:

What do you guys think would happen to Brownsville if the same weather conditions that brought the 1989 freeze reoccurred next winter?  What do you speculate on what the minimum temperature will be for Brownsville, and why?

I think we had a 89ish event this year and the only think keeping it from being as bad as 89 was the lack of snow cover across the west/South along with very pronounced heat island effects. Rural areas were only 5-8f warmer than 89 and the snow cover would have bought the temps down considerably as the heating effects of the bare earth would have been negated. 

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28 minutes ago, AnTonY said:

@LF-TX, do you ever get the feeling that wind patterns at the TX/Mexico longitude are pushed "farther south" than they otherwise would be?

I’ve never really given much thought to it actually 

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@LF-TX, I looked at how Brownsville "suddenly" gets a sharp rainfall peak right at September, when all the preceding summer months were much drier in comparison. Given its position on the coast, this would mean that the rains that month are being generated by tropical easterlies, which the high peak indicates that they are strongest that time of year.

But according to a book I found, Florida is dominated by easterlies all throughout the summer months. Which would only mean one thing: that wind belts are displaced further south at the TX/Mexico longitude than they are in Florida. This is probably from the Rocky Mountains forcing a mean trough to the east. The implications are huge:

  • The farther south subtropical ridge means deeper digging jet streams, and thus less protection from cold snaps. This must be why Texas seems to get more of those cold overrunning outbreaks compared to Florida.
  • There will also be delay in the weather patterns the ridge brings. Whereas Florida's ridge drying is spring and fall, that in Texas is pushed into summer. This causes the lower summer rainfall in Texas compared to Florida. Meanwhile, the ridge finally reaches its maximal extent in the brief late summer September period, giving Brownsville that quick, 1-month rainfall peak.

Just some quick extra notes:

  • The dryness that can happen in Texas (and much of the South outside Florida) during spring/fall is not from the ridge, but rather from weak cold fronts (no lift). In the case of Texas, there's also the EML from the Mexican Plateau that creates "capping," inhibiting storm development.
  • Also, the summer rainfall that strikes areas of the Gulf Coast/Atlantic well away from Florida (i.e. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina) is more the result of the mid latitude jet trough over the Great Lakes (the longitude where it is lowest), rather than true tropical easterly flow.

It all adds up. Looking back at the 2000s, the winter lows on the Texas coast (and the South as a whole) tended to be mild. How often did you hear about "polar vortex" or "warm west, cold east" during that period? Now look at the summers that period, and you'll find that they trended wetter. Now contrast that with the early 2010s, which brought some of the worst cold snaps to Texas as of recent, and also happened to have that potent dry spell.

So basically, poleward retreat of the jet stream will allow Brownsville (and Texas as a whole) to get wetter during summer, while the other seasons dry out. Already a trend that has been observed.

Edited by AnTonY
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On 3/19/2018, 12:04:46, LF-TX said:

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/winters-are-warming-all-across-the-us-15590

According to this source, in the state of Texas, our winters (consisting of the months December, January, & February : two of which have average temps below 64° in Brownsville) have warmed about 0.6° per decade between the years of 1970 and 2012. When one takes Brownsville’s average (NOAA) temperatures of the winter months I just mentioned, you’ll come out with 62.5°F. That’s the average winter temperature for the city of Brownsville. Now, while I think that this is slightly lower than it should be (the almost unprecedented freezes of the 80s are included in the data), let’s say that we’re going to keep this 62.5° in the picture. If you add the 0.6° that Texas winters warm every decade, Brownsville will pass the 64° mark between the within the next 20-30 years, then qualifying it as a tropical climate. So, that’s the time range in my opinion. Within the next 20-30 years, or possibly within the next 15-25 years, Brownsville will gain tropical climate status. 

B9E8B932-E674-4C82-88FA-6957AF5BE636.jpeg

But yet still no or almost no coco palms there, which are ubiquitous in south FL. If it is so mild in winter, why so few coco palms anywhere around the beaches of South Padre Island? If that were Florida, coco palms would line the main blvd of South Padre Island. The fact that they don't means people there are too afraid to plant them knowing in a decade or so they would be wiped out.

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On 3/10/2018, 2:19:19, Xenon said:

While definitely not tropical, the flora and fauna of the RGV definitely has a tropical influence. Many plants reach their northern limit in the RGV and/or belong to tropical genera. This includes most of the native trees: Ebenopsis ebano, Leucaena pulverulenta, Ehretia anacua, Cordia boissieri, Esenbeckia runyonii, Condalia hookeri, Bumelia celastrina, Zanthoxylum fagara. The RGV is also a popular birding destination because many tropical species are resident to the area. It is also one of the only places in the U.S. with native ocelot and jaguarundi populations. 

I don't think focusing on the 12F record low set in 1899 is fair. Much of the native vegetation is rated zone 9b, 9a at best. So yes, a major freeze will impact even the native plants. However such events are relatively rare, allowing for regeneration. Brownsville has not seen temperatures below 28F since 1989. 

Personally, I don't think the tropics begin until you go a little south of the Tropic of Cancer. Somewhere between there and Tampico in southern Tamaulipas. This also happens to be about where averages reach the 64.4F threshold and record lows are in the mid-high 20s.  

Yet still no mass plantings of coco palms along South Padre Islands oceanfront like in Florida. Reason, people know they will be wiped out in a decade or so, otherwise nothing says great beach destination like coco palms and they would be all over that area if they could survive. They can't.

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From what I understand from the data, South Padre has a climate quite similar to the central Florida coast like Merritt Island, there are many coconuts on Merritt Island thought not as many there are in S Florida. The last slate clearing freeze for coconuts there was in 1989 and since then there have been at least a couple that have killed some here and there on the island, maybe even this year’s event, I haven’t heard. 

So, the climates being similar, S Padre should support as many coconuts as there are on Merritt island. The problem is that coconuts are not available in Texas, whatever import laws etc. preclude them and Texas does have any truly acceptable real estate for growing them commercially as S. Florida does. 

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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27 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

From what I understand from the data, South Padre has a climate quite similar to the central Florida coast like Merritt Island, there are many coconuts on Merritt Island thought not as many there are in S Florida. The last slate clearing freeze for coconuts there was in 1989 and since then there have been at least a couple that have killed some here and there on the island, maybe even this year’s event, I haven’t heard. 

So, the climates being similar, S Padre should support as many coconuts as there are on Merritt island. The problem is that coconuts are not available in Texas, whatever import laws etc. preclude them and Texas does have any truly acceptable real estate for growing them commercially as S. Florida does. 

So you're saying that one cannot have coco's delivered legally from Florida ( or anywhere else) to TX? 

 

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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28 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

So you're saying that one cannot have coco's delivered legally from Florida ( or anywhere else) to TX? 

 

I only repeat what I’ve heard others say about it, I actually would like to know more. I know for sure that you can’t just have them delivered from international locations. I’m not sure how strict importation from Florida is. I know you can readily buy all kinds of coconuts just south of the Rio Grande but you can’t bring them back across without risking hefty fines. You can collect ones that wash up on the beach which is how a lot of people get them there  

The difficulty of acquiring coconuts in TX has come up several times on the forum. Hopefully some Texan can elaborate. 

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Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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5 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

Yet still no mass plantings of coco palms along South Padre Islands oceanfront like in Florida. Reason, people know they will be wiped out in a decade or so, otherwise nothing says great beach destination like coco palms and they would be all over that area if they could survive. They can't.

You really have no idea what you're talking about here. There are two reasons why coconuts arent prevalent on SPI and the climate isnt one of them. 

If you could bring coconuts across the border from mexico cheaply there would be thousands of them planted. Since you cant source nuts from across the border the cost of the plant is high enough that in that severly depressed economy obtaining a coconut tree isnt as worth sacrificing a few groceries so they plant a 5 gallon w. Robusta for $5 instead. 

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5 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

Yet still no mass plantings of coco palms along South Padre Islands oceanfront like in Florida. Reason, people know they will be wiped out in a decade or so, otherwise nothing says great beach destination like coco palms and they would be all over that area if they could survive. They can't.

What do you have against the SPI coco palms? We've been going at this for years...they're still there, haven't gone bye bye yet. If you planted a bunch of them there in 1990, SPI would have many sizeable coconuts today. 

Here are some recent pics from Mr. Coconut Palm...if you look closely you can see some fruit developing. This is after a very cold winter, probably the second or third coldest in the area since 1989. FB_IMG_1522715510636.thumb.jpg.1130a79daFB_IMG_1522715168569.thumb.jpg.66645b21d

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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I suspect the tropical palm expert from Philly is no more than a simple provocateur looking for sabotage.

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What you look for is what is looking

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2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

You really have no idea what you're talking about here. There are two reasons why coconuts arent prevalent on SPI and the climate isnt one of them. 

If you could bring coconuts across the border from mexico cheaply there would be thousands of them planted. Since you cant source nuts from across the border the cost of the plant is high enough that in that severly depressed economy obtaining a coconut tree isnt as worth sacrificing a few groceries so they plant a 5 gallon w. Robusta for $5 instead. 

So all those hotels lining the beach can't afford to buy coconuts. Ok. I don't believe it. It is cause they are afraid a freeze will wipe them out.

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51 minutes ago, bubba said:

I suspect the tropical palm expert from Philly is no more than a simple provocateur looking for sabotage.

no just someone that has lived thru the 80's and the 17F SPI saw. Every single coco would be gone. S. Texas is much more susceptible to arctic cold than Florida. I'm sorry I just don't buy it that all those hotels lining the beach can't afford to buy coconuts from Florida or grow some themselves. They are afraid the 80's temps will return and wipe them out. That is all.

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2 hours ago, Xenon said:

What do you have against the SPI coco palms? We've been going at this for years...they're still there, haven't gone bye bye yet. If you planted a bunch of them there in 1990, SPI would have many sizeable coconuts today. 

Here are some recent pics from Mr. Coconut Palm...if you look closely you can see some fruit developing. This is after a very cold winter, probably the second or third coldest in the area since 1989. FB_IMG_1522715510636.thumb.jpg.1130a79daFB_IMG_1522715168569.thumb.jpg.66645b21d

A paltry few. Why aren't there large scale plantings by the commercial wealthy hotels down there?

Edited by mthteh1916
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Sir Philly,

You seem a little mad at the world or perhaps just an automaton programed for espionage. This is a like-minded palm forum full of zone benders. We may take our licks every so often but we are all pulling for each other notwithstanding our geographic location to pull that proverbial rabbit out of a hat.

For South Texas, Southern California, Israel, Malta, South Australia and many other areas the holy grail is Cocos nucifera. For South Florida, it may be Sealing Wax or Pigfetta filaris. We may joke a bit and play a few games but at the end of the day, we are all on the same team. We are trying our best to smile when that artic blast is headed our way to destroy our prized specimen.

If you are only bent on spreading gloom, I suggest you move on to numerous other forums that exist in this universe to discuss the end of the world or swamp apes. This is just my opinion but I suggest you move on to other venues with like-minded folks like yourself. All the Best, bubba

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What you look for is what is looking

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On 3/31/2018, 2:17:26, AnTonY said:

@LF-TX, I looked at how Brownsville "suddenly" gets a sharp rainfall peak right at September, when all the preceding summer months were much drier in comparison. Given its position on the coast, this would mean that the rains that month are being generated by tropical easterlies, which the high peak indicates that they are strongest that time of year.

But according to a book I found, Florida is dominated by easterlies all throughout the summer months. Which would only mean one thing: that wind belts are displaced further south at the TX/Mexico longitude than they are in Florida. This is probably from the Rocky Mountains forcing a mean trough to the east. The implications are huge:

  • The farther south subtropical ridge means deeper digging jet streams, and thus less protection from cold snaps. This must be why Texas seems to get more of those cold overrunning outbreaks compared to Florida.
  • There will also be delay in the weather patterns the ridge brings. Whereas Florida's ridge drying is spring and fall, that in Texas is pushed into summer. This causes the lower summer rainfall in Texas compared to Florida. Meanwhile, the ridge finally reaches its maximal extent in the brief late summer September period, giving Brownsville that quick, 1-month rainfall peak.

Just some quick extra notes:

  • The dryness that can happen in Texas (and much of the South outside Florida) during spring/fall is not from the ridge, but rather from weak cold fronts (no lift). In the case of Texas, there's also the EML from the Mexican Plateau that creates "capping," inhibiting storm development.
  • Also, the summer rainfall that strikes areas of the Gulf Coast/Atlantic well away from Florida (i.e. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina) is more the result of the mid latitude jet trough over the Great Lakes (the longitude where it is lowest), rather than true tropical easterly flow.

It all adds up. Looking back at the 2000s, the winter lows on the Texas coast (and the South as a whole) tended to be mild. How often did you hear about "polar vortex" or "warm west, cold east" during that period? Now look at the summers that period, and you'll find that they trended wetter. Now contrast that with the early 2010s, which brought some of the worst cold snaps to Texas as of recent, and also happened to have that potent dry spell.

So basically, poleward retreat of the jet stream will allow Brownsville (and Texas as a whole) to get wetter during summer, while the other seasons dry out. Already a trend that has been observed.

 

Wasn't until 2012 that I started really hearing polar vortex. Might have before but I can't recall hearing it like I did from then on. Was about then that winter started shifting to COLD from mild too.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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14 hours ago, bubba said:

Sir Philly,

You seem a little mad at the world or perhaps just an automaton programed for espionage. This is a like-minded palm forum full of zone benders. We may take our licks every so often but we are all pulling for each other notwithstanding our geographic location to pull that proverbial rabbit out of a hat.

For South Texas, Southern California, Israel, Malta, South Australia and many other areas the holy grail is Cocos nucifera. For South Florida, it may be Sealing Wax or Pigfetta filaris. We may joke a bit and play a few games but at the end of the day, we are all on the same team. We are trying our best to smile when that artic blast is headed our way to destroy our prized specimen.

If you are only bent on spreading gloom, I suggest you move on to numerous other forums that exist in this universe to discuss the end of the world or swamp apes. This is just my opinion but I suggest you move on to other venues with like-minded folks like yourself. All the Best, bubba

I'm just ticked off that everywhere else in the world at my latitude 39N can grow all kinds of palms, and due to our bad geography and climate in eastern US we can't grow a darn subtropical thing here. And everytime we get hit with one of these winters I get depressed again. It sucks that places way north of me in france grow cidp and citrus easily. Doesn't it ever get you guys down that we get such stupid cold at such low latitudes?

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14 hours ago, bubba said:

Sir Philly,

You seem a little mad at the world or perhaps just an automaton programed for espionage. This is a like-minded palm forum full of zone benders. We may take our licks every so often but we are all pulling for each other notwithstanding our geographic location to pull that proverbial rabbit out of a hat.

For South Texas, Southern California, Israel, Malta, South Australia and many other areas the holy grail is Cocos nucifera. For South Florida, it may be Sealing Wax or Pigfetta filaris. We may joke a bit and play a few games but at the end of the day, we are all on the same team. We are trying our best to smile when that artic blast is headed our way to destroy our prized specimen.

If you are only bent on spreading gloom, I suggest you move on to numerous other forums that exist in this universe to discuss the end of the world or swamp apes. This is just my opinion but I suggest you move on to other venues with like-minded folks like yourself. All the Best, bubba

And it seems that since 2014 it is getting worse and worse. Prior to that I was very optimistic and growing all kinds of palms in the eastern US, and since 2014 all I keep hearing are stories about this palm or that palm being wiped out. For example, 2014 wiped out pygmy dates and queen palms on the upper gulf coast. It is not just me, there are others on here that are pretty pessimistic about what can be grown.

 

I apologize for coming off so negative, it is just the climates we got stuck with get me down particularly after a cold winter. I have tried so many different zone 8 stuff in Cape May County NJ all killed off since 2014.

 

In future I will try to be more upbeat. If we had five normal or mild winters in a row I would feel much better.

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10 hours ago, bubba said:

Your cool! No more pedantic BS from me!

I even had pampas grass killed of in 2014 and 2015 and cost me a bit of money. I lost loropetalum that I was told was fine there. Killed and gone in 2015. I don't know what ble's to try now as we gone from borderline 7b/8a to low 7a. Even camellias i bought killed. I just want multiple mild winters like from 2004 to 2013 to get things established.

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On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2018‎ ‎5‎:‎07‎:‎55‎, Xerarch said:

From what I understand from the data, South Padre has a climate quite similar to the central Florida coast like Merritt Island, there are many coconuts on Merritt Island thought not as many there are in S Florida. The last slate clearing freeze for coconuts there was in 1989 and since then there have been at least a couple that have killed some here and there on the island, maybe even this year’s event, I haven’t heard. 

So, the climates being similar, S Padre should support as many coconuts as there are on Merritt island. The problem is that coconuts are not available in Texas, whatever import laws etc. preclude them and Texas does have any truly acceptable real estate for growing them commercially as S. Florida does. 

Xerarch, 

     I brought a sprout Hawaiian coconut tree back in my luggage from Honolulu in Nov' 17.  Cleared customs bound for Houston Hobby Airport no questions or problems.  Citrus is another issue and not allowed for import to TX

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@mthteh1916 You don't even have to leave the US. I'm sure people all over the South have envy towards Florida for their ability to grow tropical plants without as much risk for freeze. Especially Texas, because there should be the same ability given the latitude.

But overall, I'm glad that the Southern US at least has live oaks, southern magnolias, sabal palms, red bay, spanish moss, and some other evergreens/epiphytes. So even though there are the cold blasts that limit the growth of interesting tender plants, at least the native land has areas of good subtropical aesthetic.

 

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14 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

I even had pampas grass killed of in 2014 and 2015 and cost me a bit of money. I lost loropetalum that I was told was fine there. Killed and gone in 2015. I don't know what ble's to try now as we gone from borderline 7b/8a to low 7a. Even camellias i bought killed. I just want multiple mild winters like from 2004 to 2013 to get things established.

Just pretend that you are in USDA z6b. Plant Sabal minor or Rhapidophylum hystrix or something if that is your kind of thing. It seems as though the whole polar vortex thing is here to stay until New Jersey is underwater. Also, wasn't 2009-2010 a bad winter?

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On 3/9/2018, 1:35:13, LF-TX said:

Texas, being a big state, has a wide range of climates. You have arid towards the west, subtropical towards the east, colder temps north, and warmer temps south. For a long time I’ve been questioning Köppen’s classification for Brownsville / Eastern Cameron county. At NOAA’s averages for this area, we fall into a subtropical climate. Now, what troubles me is the plain, visible differences in the vegetation of Brownsville/surrounding areas to that of areas outside of the lower RGV. For those that have visited/ are natives to this area, it’s clear that Brownsville is visibly a lot more tropical that most areas of the Valley outside of the Lower Valley. Once you leave north of Harlingen TX, the landscape becomes a lot more barren and sad, dry. However, in areas like Bayview, Los Fresnos, and Brownsville (mainly mid and east), boom, green. Granted, since we don’t live on mars, of course it’s going to be green, but this area has an abundance of vegetation in comparison to the rest of the Valley and South Texas. Brownsville has a notable ability to sustain tropical palms fruits such as mangos, papayas, guavas, etc, and, like mentioned in several forum posts, coconuts. Now, while Brownsville isn’t a garden of Eden for tropical plants since it does get cold, the fact that they're sustained well here goes to show that the deep southern Valley exhibits tropical characteristics. While NOAA’s temperature averages begs to differ, Brownsville natives know well that this area is starkly different in comparison to other places that fall under the humid subtropical climate category. The Valley has a climate that is different in so many ways when placed next to that of major subtropical cities like Houston, New Orleans, Memphis, Atlanta, Raleigh, & Little Rock. Brownsville visibly belongs to a curious climate. While there’s no getting around the fact that Brownsville doesn’t have a true tropical climate due to cold snaps, I personally think that this region of the lower Rio Grande Valley merits to be considered as on the threshold of a tropical savannah climate. 

1) As mentioned, the presence of tropical plants in this areas shows that the infrequent, while sometimes strong, cold snaps aren’t enough to rob this area of its tropical look, or at least the presence of tropical plants 2) NOAA’s averages for the Brownsville area include outlier temperatures that don’t provide a reliable testament to our climate. Yes, severe freezes have and do happen in this area, but our climate - our prevailing conditions - is anything but close to the period of time in which the horrendous freezes of the 80s lasted. 3) While southern Texas is almost entirely not shielded by blue northerns, but perhaps a slightly similar phenomena that occurs with the state of Florida occurs with the Brownsville area. As many of us know, Florida is a peninsula. Surrounded by warm water. This is a wonderful advantage with wonderful results in protection against the bitter cold that dips down into the southern US. The warming effect of the ocean allows for areas of south Florida to enjoy an absolutely beautiful tropical climate. Now, looking at the other side of the Gulf of Mexico you’ll see the Southern Texas Coast. When one looks at the map, you can see that the immediate coast of the Rio Grande Valley slightly bends out towards the gulf and just slightly retards the “C” curve that the entire western Gulf of Mexico has. Could this be why Brownsville is the site where near tropical characteristics spike and continue to gradually increase as one goes down the coast into Mexico? Could the Gulf’s warming effect and the Valley’s coastal bend be the reason why Brownsville and Matamoros enjoy a visibly warmer climate and are slightly “blanketed” temperature-wise during cold snaps?

Since all this has all been a personal opinion and a curious observation, I may be wrong and my suggestion that brownsville be given a *default* tropical classification instead of subtropical may be erroneous. What do y’all think?

Sounds pretty accurate to me, though the 60-something degree off the shores of Pinellas county, Fl (February) is not a perfect example of 'warm water'.

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@mthteh1916 you're not the only one...just hoping it warms up back to our normal winters. 

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LOWS 16/17 12F, 17/18 3F, 18/19 7F, 19/20 20F

Palms growing in my garden: Trachycarpus Fortunei, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Humilis var. Cerifera, Rhapidophyllum Hystrix, Sabal Palmetto 

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On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018‎ ‎12‎:‎35‎:‎13‎, LF-TX said:

Texas, being a big state, has a wide range of climates. You have arid towards the west, subtropical towards the east, colder temps north, and warmer temps south. For a long time I’ve been questioning Köppen’s classification for Brownsville / Eastern Cameron county. At NOAA’s averages for this area, we fall into a subtropical climate. Now, what troubles me is the plain, visible differences in the vegetation of Brownsville/surrounding areas to that of areas outside of the lower RGV. For those that have visited/ are natives to this area, it’s clear that Brownsville is visibly a lot more tropical that most areas of the Valley outside of the Lower Valley. Once you leave north of Harlingen TX, the landscape becomes a lot more barren and sad, dry. However, in areas like Bayview, Los Fresnos, and Brownsville (mainly mid and east), boom, green. Granted, since we don’t live on mars, of course it’s going to be green, but this area has an abundance of vegetation in comparison to the rest of the Valley and South Texas. Brownsville has a notable ability to sustain tropical palms fruits such as mangos, papayas, guavas, etc, and, like mentioned in several forum posts, coconuts. Now, while Brownsville isn’t a garden of Eden for tropical plants since it does get cold, the fact that they're sustained well here goes to show that the deep southern Valley exhibits tropical characteristics. While NOAA’s temperature averages begs to differ, Brownsville natives know well that this area is starkly different in comparison to other places that fall under the humid subtropical climate category. The Valley has a climate that is different in so many ways when placed next to that of major subtropical cities like Houston, New Orleans, Memphis, Atlanta, Raleigh, & Little Rock. Brownsville visibly belongs to a curious climate. While there’s no getting around the fact that Brownsville doesn’t have a true tropical climate due to cold snaps, I personally think that this region of the lower Rio Grande Valley merits to be considered as on the threshold of a tropical savannah climate. 

1) As mentioned, the presence of tropical plants in this areas shows that the infrequent, while sometimes strong, cold snaps aren’t enough to rob this area of its tropical look, or at least the presence of tropical plants 2) NOAA’s averages for the Brownsville area include outlier temperatures that don’t provide a reliable testament to our climate. Yes, severe freezes have and do happen in this area, but our climate - our prevailing conditions - is anything but close to the period of time in which the horrendous freezes of the 80s lasted. 3) While southern Texas is almost entirely not shielded by blue northerns, but perhaps a slightly similar phenomena that occurs with the state of Florida occurs with the Brownsville area. As many of us know, Florida is a peninsula. Surrounded by warm water. This is a wonderful advantage with wonderful results in protection against the bitter cold that dips down into the southern US. The warming effect of the ocean allows for areas of south Florida to enjoy an absolutely beautiful tropical climate. Now, looking at the other side of the Gulf of Mexico you’ll see the Southern Texas Coast. When one looks at the map, you can see that the immediate coast of the Rio Grande Valley slightly bends out towards the gulf and just slightly retards the “C” curve that the entire western Gulf of Mexico has. Could this be why Brownsville is the site where near tropical characteristics spike and continue to gradually increase as one goes down the coast into Mexico? Could the Gulf’s warming effect and the Valley’s coastal bend be the reason why Brownsville and Matamoros enjoy a visibly warmer climate and are slightly “blanketed” temperature-wise during cold snaps?

Since all this has all been a personal opinion and a curious observation, I may be wrong and my suggestion that brownsville be given a *default* tropical classification instead of subtropical may be erroneous. What do y’all think?

Roberto,

I think you are spot on!  I have always noticed a DISTINCTLY MORE TROPICAL LOOK in the Cameron County in general, and the Brownsville area in particular, than that of the rest of the Valley!!!  The abundance of Royal Palms, Foxtail Palms, Areca Palms,  Royal Poincianas, Mangoes, Paapayas, Guavas, Orchid Trees, etc., and the number of Coconut Palms in the Brownsville area, compared to the rest of the area, says that you are REALLY ON TO SOMETHING!!!

John

 

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On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018‎ ‎11‎:‎00‎:‎03‎, AnTonY said:

@LF-TX, do you ever get the feeling that wind patterns at the TX/Mexico longitude are pushed "farther south" than they otherwise would be?

How do you mean?

John

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