Butia Odorata vs Catarensis Cold hardiness

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I've mentioned the difference between the larger Odorata that is typically seen and grown in Texas, LA, and California vs the smaller Catarensis commonly found in Florida.  Here are pictures of both large, mature species that are all less than 8' from each other that went through this winter at my house in which an ultimate low of 13.1 was recorded.  The Catarensis are very well established having been there for a number of years while the Odorata is a newer planting just 16 months old and less healthy/established. 

Additionally the JxB F1 are north of the house and have zero damage whatsoever.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Three catarensis. The spear on the smaller one looks pretty bad. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Odorata spear looks perfect. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

J x b F1. Zero cold damage. Wind beat and sun burned a little.  

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Unknown butia. Has round seed like odorata, but smaller in size. Trunk is not as big around as odorata either. Green med fan damage for reference. Thats the west side of a brick wall. 

[Jamesasb]

oh those poor catarinensis!!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

3 more catarensis. These saw 8f. M

[meteorologistpalmguy]

I recall you had a JXS or two that went into the ground this past summer.  How did they do?  Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Yes two of them and they are down at cold spot by the greenhouses.  The thermometers varied from 7.6-8.2F down there but we had them wrapped up with frost cloth and zero additional heat.  The smaller one has a brown spear but the bigger one looks good except a few burnt outer fronds that were touching the frost cloth.

[Jamesasb]

are those first 2  8f  catarinensis likely to recover? that looks so savage

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Jamesasb

[Brad Mondel]

That’s crazy. I’ve always been told that catariensis is more cold hardy than odorata? 

[Jamesasb]

i was always toldthey were less hardy, but i mean if they can come back from this they are still prettyhardy

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I visited a few folks in north Louisianna today.   Temps were 9-11f at these locations.  First pic butia eriospatha that fared really well and looked a lot better than this pic portrays. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Jubaea with what looks like a defoliated butia catarensis to me. Burned sabal mexicana fronds are directly above the jubaea. There is a bayou full of bald cypress and tons of Spanish moss 100' from this jubaea, verrrryyy hot and humid here in the summer.  Jubaea was planted as a seedling 10 years ago per the owner. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Bxj hybrid. Defoliated green med fan on the right. Tall (most likely dead) Sylvester date behind it. 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

This location was sub 10f anf again a.hot, humid area in the summer. There is a 3 acre pond 35' from the jubaea.  Jubaea in foreground showing burn. Two Bxj f1 can be seen directly behind it with zero damage. 

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Super bonus pic here. Two different Trachycarpus Nanus with one showing an old flower on it by my finger. 

[Alberto]

On 23/02/2018 14:50:15, Brad Mondel said:

That’s crazy. I’ve always been told that catariensis is more cold hardy than odorata? 

The habitat of Butia catarinensis are the southern beach dunes of my state Paraná and specially that of Santa Catarina state and  that are frost free. 

The habitat of Butia odorata are on higher ground and can be frosty, so it isn´t surprising to me seeing that odoratas are cold hardier.

[frienduvafrond]

Very interesting, just the opposite here in coastal north carolina. The Butia that have done the best  have elongated seeds, the round seeded (what I assume are Odorata) are scorched. I would venture to say there may be thousands of Butia that have died even, worst I have seen in 37 years. ( I have a landscape service). I will caveat this by saying the Odorata seeds I have seen from Texas are huge, the round seeded Butia here have small round seed, much like the un-named Butia in this post.(Noblicki?) The only large round seeded one I am familiar with I suspect to be Butia x Jubaea or Butia Eriospatha hybrid. New to forum, hope to document this damage with pics soon.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

6 hours ago, frienduvafrond said:

Very interesting, just the opposite here in coastal north carolina. The Butia that have done the best  have elongated seeds, the round seeded (what I assume are Odorata) are scorched. I would venture to say there may be thousands of Butia that have died even, worst I have seen in 37 years. ( I have a landscape service). I will caveat this by saying the Odorata seeds I have seen from Texas are huge, the round seeded Butia here have small round seed, much like the un-named Butia in this post.(Noblicki?) The only large round seeded one I am familiar with I suspect to be Butia x Jubaea or Butia Eriospatha hybrid. New to forum, hope to document this damage with pics soon.

I have catarinensis with football shaped seed and smaller round seed. The odorata have larger seed that is always round.  

[frienduvafrond]

I stand corrected then, in which case, the football shaped catarinensis  faired better than the small round seeded. I am sure most, if not all of these Butias here came from Florida at least since the mid to late 90s. A few came through this quite nicely, even in god-awful exposed areas. Has been a great year for finding the most cold hardy individuals indeed.

[frienduvafrond]

17 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I have catarinensis with football shaped seed and smaller round seed. The odorata have larger seed that is always round.  

Well now I have something new to do, in trying to find a true Odorata. There are thousands of Butia in the area it stands to reason there must be a few.! Thanks for the info TCHP.  Did any of your Catarinensis go unscathed, because there are some here that made it very nicely. Hybrids perhaps? Oh that crazy Butia family eh?...:-}

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

15 minutes ago, frienduvafrond said:

Well now I have something new to do, in trying to find a true Odorata. There are thousands of Butia in the area it stands to reason there must be a few.! Thanks for the info TCHP.  Did any of your Catarinensis go unscathed, because there are some here that made it very nicely. Hybrids perhaps? Oh that crazy Butia family eh?...:-}

Zero made it untouched at 8f. Around town where it only dropped to 13-14 they look good. Bxj hybrids dont start to burn until single digits. Of the 18 j xb f1 one shows significantly more leaf hardiness than the others. 

[frienduvafrond]

2 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Zero made it untouched at 8f. Around town where it only dropped to 13-14 they look good. Bxj hybrids dont start to burn until single digits. Of the 18 j xb f1 one shows significantly more leaf hardiness than the others. 

How does wind chill factor in on that 13-14f? We had a low of around 12f here, but some of these were completely exposed to wind. The wind chills were -5f.

[PalmatierMeg]

Wind chill won't affect a palm like it would a human being who produces his own heat. Simplistically, wind chill factor is an estimate of how much winds may strip the heat from a human or other mammal's body vs no wind. On a calm day 8F is just that. Add a wind and the body loses heat faster. That is translated into a "feels like temp" based on how fast/strong the wind is. I believe that's all a matter of estimates/guesswork and is harped by weather broadcasters for dramatic effect. The "feels like" wind chill factor never entered into forecasts years ago.

Plants, however, do not produce heat like mammals and therefore can't have it stripped away - at 8F they stay at that temp. But strong, cold winds will burn and dessicate palm leaves and possibly cause mechanical damage like shredding and breakage.