Looking to get into citrus, questions on hardy varieties

[mdsonofthesouth]

So far Ive narrowed it down to:

 

Owari Satsuma Tree: Citrus reticulata 'Owari'

Nagami Kumquat: Fortunella margarita

 

I dont have a ton of space since Im using my best microclimate + greenhousing for Jan and Feb (will be built around the trees as they are going in the ground). I was originally going for a changsha but was told they werent very good, and this isnt about ornamental fruit as I want to eat from them. Any input on what Im looking at or other sweet varieties ( I know kumquats arent sweet lol) that are cold hardy. Also anyone know how tall and wide I can expect these to get? Thanks!

Edited February 8, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[Mangosteen]

Kumquats do really well in a pot. Doesn't even have to be a large pot. I wouldn't plant it in the ground in your growing zone.

The  Owari Satsuma might need a slightly larger pot, but it should be able to fruit in one.

[Silas_Sancona]

Agree w/ Mangosteen.. 

Owari, as well as most other Tangerine varieties can do well in pots, esp. something equivalent to a 25gal or larger. Id also add Key Lime, Sweet Lime ( like Bearss seedless.) Finger Limes, Limequats, Meyers Lemon and, of course, Kumquats to the list of do-able in containers. Keep in mind that with Kumquats, one variety is sweet ( possibly Meiwa ) the other is fairly sour, but still enjoyed by many. 

Most sweet Oranges and Grapefruit, inc. Pumelo need more space to grow/produce properly. Larger sized Lemon like Lisbon or Ponderosa (..a mostly "for show only" variety) and Tangelo also do best in the ground as well, though I think Tangelo can also produce decently in pots.

Regarding Meyer, or the "Improved" Meyer Lemon variety, i've personally kept in-ground specimens trimmed to roughly 6' high X4-ish ft around and harvested roughly 30lbs of fruit of each tree. Would be a reasonable guess that you could keep one to a similar size happily in a 30gal pot. While that might seem big container-wise, a 30gal pot is easily moved around with a hand cart as /if needed.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Theyd be in a "heated" greenhouse for Jan and Feb and possibly Dec too, and obviously protected for events outside of those months. The ground where Id plant it takes a rare major event to freeze the ground as its blocked from northern and western (our most popular variety in winter) winds and receives ALOT of sun. I know its a push, but figure the 2 kinds Im looking at are zone 8 plants and I currently have a living zone 8 palm in the ground in a MUCH worse microclimate that has seen brutal temps the past 2 winters (10-15F) and under the circumstances is doing pretty good! So I understand not recommending this idea, but Im not interested in potted citrus and feel like pushing :D.

 

Limes and other citrus arent nearly as hardy, as well as not really on my radar. Would I love to grow mangos and any orange variety Id ever want? Sure! But its going to be a small spot so I need smaller varieties. How do citrus do if the canopys are touching? Honestly might have to choose between the 2 as I may not have enough room in my golden microclimate for both but Ill hold off on cutting one until I see the plans.

 

Basically I would build something like this around it for the majority of the winter with ventilation/airflow and some light artificial heat thermostatically controlled with a thermo cube. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[mdsonofthesouth]

On 2/10/2018, 11:41:59, Silas_Sancona said:

Agree w/ Mangosteen.. 

Owari, as well as most other Tangerine varieties can do well in pots, esp. something equivalent to a 25gal or larger. Id also add Key Lime, Sweet Lime ( like Bearss seedless.) Finger Limes, Limequats, Meyers Lemon and, of course, Kumquats to the list of do-able in containers. Keep in mind that with Kumquats, one variety is sweet ( possibly Meiwa ) the other is fairly sour, but still enjoyed by many. 

Most sweet Oranges and Grapefruit, inc. Pumelo need more space to grow/produce properly. Larger sized Lemon like Lisbon or Ponderosa (..a mostly "for show only" variety) and Tangelo also do best in the ground as well, though I think Tangelo can also produce decently in pots.

Regarding Meyer, or the "Improved" Meyer Lemon variety, i've personally kept in-ground specimens trimmed to roughly 6' high X4-ish ft around and harvested roughly 30lbs of fruit of each tree. Would be a reasonable guess that you could keep one to a similar size happily in a 30gal pot. While that might seem big container-wise, a 30gal pot is easily moved around with a hand cart as /if needed.

 

I like that height and width, do you use that model for all citrus or just lemons? Those specs I could easily get both trees in there. I dont want to overprune something as they say the owari is ~12ft x 12ft

[Laaz]

You want them on a dwarfing rootstock like flying dragon.

[Silas_Sancona]

mdsonofthesouth,

Yes, I would use a similar formula on smaller sized trees like Lemon (Improved Meyer in the example id shared) Key/finger/sweet Limes, Kumquats, and yes.. you could probably get away with keeping Owari, and other Tangerine types like Clementine at roughly 8X8 or 9X9. Anything that produces large fruit id keep around 10-12' or so. It really comes down to the space you have for them, and how much you plan to harvest.. even a 6X6 Lemon can produce too much fruit (we couldn't freeze enough Lemon juice/ give away what we couldn't use fast enough that year). Rotten fruit laying around can invite a lot of not so welcome guests into the yard.

Agree w/ Laas, try to find citrus that are on dwarfing rootstock if you can.. Doesn't guarantee the specific cultivar will stay " Dwarf" though and grafted trees can strangle themselves over time. 

 

[Josue Diaz]

Kumquat And mandarins are generally the smaller citrus trees, but they do get big nonetheless. I've seen both types reach 20-25 feet tall even on dwarfing rootstock. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

https://www.fast-growing-trees.com/Owari-Satsuma.htm

 

https://www.fast-growing-trees.com/NagamiKumquat.htm

 

These are the ones I'm getting. If anyone has a better source thats trustworthy I'm all ears! But yeah I'd love to fit both kinds in the space as im extremely excited about kumquats and if push comes to shove the owari gets the nod.

 

I want healthy trees, but I dont want big ones as I only plan on a few neighbors and us. Plus I need it to be manageable and semi easy to greenhouse for the winter. Dont want a 12ft + tree to greenhouse every winter lol.

Edited February 14, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[Laaz]

You probably want to try Lowes & Home Depot in the spring, you'll get better prices & can pick out your trees.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Yeah the plants they sell here are limited. They readily sell the wrong palms, but no needles which are bulletproof here. But hey you can buy all the livistona chinensis you can handle! Ill check it out for sure though, but wont get my hopes up. Thankfully I have time as these wont get planted til june july timeframe. 

 

Currently 1-1.5 year old at big box are ~$40 so not too far off. I debated asking my grandma to see whats in Florida areound their house, but I dont want to put her through all that for a tree lol.

[PalmatierMeg]

I take it you are looking to grow some kind of edible citrus as opposed to ornamental citrus? I remember from childhood that my mother, a native of NO CAL, grew for for decades an ornamental orange tree that never reached more than 4' tall. When we lived in Fairfax, VA, she moved it onto the back porch during spring-fall. In winter it sat beside an armchair next to floor-to-ceiling plate glass windows. I don't remember much about it except the fruit were the size of ping pong balls, inedible and she kept it looking good until she and my dad moved to Raleigh in 1999 after she broke her hip. What happened to it I don't know. But she was devoted to that little tree for nigh on 50 years, probably as a reminder of her youth in CA.

I don't know but I wonder if in trying to grow fruiting citrus so far north you might run into the same problem that some people do who zone push coconuts, i.e., you may get the tree to "survive" but can't provide the total conditions "package" it needs to properly produce the offspring you desire? I ask not to discourage you or anyone else from trying what you are proposing. Rather I hope if you do undertake this project that you keep us updated on your progress and results so we all can benefit from your efforts.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Could it have been key limes or kumquats?

 

Im not expecting much, but hoping the greenhouse will help during the winter. My sister inlaw is pot growing a lemon tree and getting ok fruit.

[Laaz]

Key limes are real easy & will fruit from seed in two years. They are also the most frost tender of all citrus, but do well in containers.

[PalmatierMeg]

2 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Could it have been key limes or kumquats?

 

Im not expecting much, but hoping the greenhouse will help during the winter. My sister inlaw is pot growing a lemon tree and getting ok fruit.

Definitely not key limes which are a FL thing. Key limes are quite cold sensitive and would be my last choice in cold climate. And as my mother was that rare native Californian (born before it was flooded with fortune seekers, kooks, druggies, dreamers, crooks and gangsters), she had a bias toward Californian produce. She refused to buy FL avocados, claiming they "tasted like soap." I, born in Washington, DC, had no dog in that fight.

I think she probably had a calamondin orange, an intergeneric hybrid between a citrus and a kumquat that was introduced from China (probably through Cali) around 1900. See more below:

Calamondin.html

My mother was born in 1920 so she certainly would have been familiar with it. It has little use other than as an ornamental but stays small and is cold hardy down to 20F. They are sold here in garden centers as "patio orange trees." I don't keep houseplants but I tried one outdoors in a pot. It was a lot of work and lasted only a few years. We have abandoned citrus as the FL citrus industry is succumbing to citrus greening disease and many independent nurseries no longer sell it at all. Only BB garden centers and make-a-buck-sellers still peddle citrus trees.

If you are looking to raise your own citrus fruit for consumption in MD, seek elsewhere, but calamondins are certainly something different in the local landscape.

[mdsonofthesouth]

9 hours ago, Laaz said:

Key limes are real easy & will fruit from seed in two years. They are also the most frost tender of all citrus, but do well in containers.

 

I would never even think to grow something like that. The nagami and owari are as sensitive as I want to go. 

 

8 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Definitely not key limes which are a FL thing. Key limes are quite cold sensitive and would be my last choice in cold climate. And as my mother was that rare native Californian (born before it was flooded with fortune seekers, kooks, druggies, dreamers, crooks and gangsters), she had a bias toward Californian produce. She refused to buy FL avocados, claiming they "tasted like soap." I, born in Washington, DC, had no dog in that fight.

I think she probably had a calamondin orange, an intergeneric hybrid between a citrus and a kumquat that was introduced from China (probably through Cali) around 1900. See more below:

Calamondin.html

My mother was born in 1920 so she certainly would have been familiar with it. It has little use other than as an ornamental but stays small and is cold hardy down to 20F. They are sold here in garden centers as "patio orange trees." I don't keep houseplants but I tried one outdoors in a pot. It was a lot of work and lasted only a few years. We have abandoned citrus as the FL citrus industry is succumbing to citrus greening disease and many independent nurseries no longer sell it at all. Only BB garden centers and make-a-buck-sellers still peddle citrus trees.

If you are looking to raise your own citrus fruit for consumption in MD, seek elsewhere, but calamondins are certainly something different in the local landscape.

 

The Nagami and owari are touted to take brief 12F to 15F. I dont ever plan on letting them get even close to that. They would have the prime microclimate on my property and would be babied in the winter in a ventilated heated tent. Will definitely keep yall posted, and hopefully Im able to pull it off. One of the best things about Florida is going out in the morning and picking fresh citrus year round from the lanai. This will be my way of trying this in the peidmont of Maryland in a prime artificial environment. Worst case I put a bunch of trachycarpus and other stuff if it doesn't work.  

Edited February 17, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[PalmatierMeg]

"One of the best things about Florida is going out in the morning and picking fresh citrus year round from the lanai."

Another myth perpetrated by "Fly 'em & Fleece 'em" real estate speculators. Although there may be the oddball lemon variety or two that claims to produce occasional fruit throughout the year, most FL citrus has distinct harvests that last from a few weeks (honeybells) to several months. By growing carefully selected orange varieties in his yard, a person could theoretically have ripe fruit for 5-6 months if he is willing to put in the money and effort to care for his trees. Citrus trees take fertilization and pruning and are prone to pests and diseases. Or he could go to his local farmers' market every Sat. during growing season (Nov. - Apr.). Locally, table citrus (oranges, grapefruit and the like varieties) are abundant from late Oct. through March or April. Then a wait while a new crop grows. Whatever authentic FL citrus you find by summer comes from cold storage or is bogus. BTW, FL is known for its juice oranges, Cali for its superior navel oranges.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Haha every winter growing up we went to Clearwater and I went out every morning for fresh citrus. Dont know the cycle, and didnt mean to broad brush and say year round. But it sure felt like it!

 

Eitherway being able to go out and pick fresh citrus from your tree is amazing....no mangos would be nice too! But thats for south Florida.

[Jotoqi]

Meyer lemons do really well in well drained pots. I’m in zone 7a and mine has survived for 3 years so far.

 

The lowest temp it hit was 5 degrees— it’s still good.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Jotoqi

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I'm putting a lot of Ichang lemons that i have grown in the ground this year.  10F didn't even completely defoliate them this year.

[Sanips]

15 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I'm putting a lot of Ichang lemons that i have grown in the ground this year.  10F didn't even completely defoliate them this year.

Nice. In Spain, it's more and more common seeing the Yuzu lemon which is a hybrid of Ichang (Citrus ichangensis X C. reticulata var. austera)

[Laaz]

Ichange is very seedy & not good quality, but makes a good ornamental tree.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

1 hour ago, Laaz said:

Ichange is very seedy & not good quality, but makes a good ornamental tree.

I actually liked the taste of the ichang fruit.  Orange like meat consistency, not bitter at all, and large easy to peel fruit.  One tree has a very thick rind and the other is thinner.  

I guess I should add that I don't like the taste of regular lemons so I'm probably in the minority.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Ok so I was able to get more finalized dimensions on the area Im looking to put these and would love some input. Rough numbers but close enough that a few inches wont change much. Yellow is the plantable area, the sliver on the left isnt accurate but should be 4ft+ and will be my new trachycarpus strand. Would this space work well for my plans or am I totally crazy? 

 

Pleas excuse the MS paint picture as it was the fastest way top mock this up for visuals. oh and the grey is the driveway lol. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by mdsonofthesouth

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:20 AM, mdsonofthesouth said:

Could it have been key limes or kumquats?

 

Im not expecting much, but hoping the greenhouse will help during the winter. My sister inlaw is pot growing a lemon tree and getting ok fruit.

Just grow trifoliate orange or ichang papeda, they aren't edible raw, but they are very hardy, and also look into trifoliate orange hybrids.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 2/8/2018 at 3:34 PM, mdsonofthesouth said:

So far Ive narrowed it down to:

 

Owari Satsuma Tree: Citrus reticulata 'Owari'

Nagami Kumquat: Fortunella margarita

 

I dont have a ton of space since Im using my best microclimate + greenhousing for Jan and Feb (will be built around the trees as they are going in the ground). I was originally going for a changsha but was told they werent very good, and this isnt about ornamental fruit as I want to eat from them. Any input on what Im looking at or other sweet varieties ( I know kumquats arent sweet lol) that are cold hardy. Also anyone know how tall and wide I can expect these to get? Thanks!

Or ship a N1 tri voss hybrid from Europe.