Forsteriana or belmoreana

[GDLWyverex]

I bought this guy for 42.50 as a Kentia Palm (Howea Forsteriana) but it looks a whole lot like Howea Belmoreana to me...

What think you? Forsteriana or Belmoreana?

It makes a big difference as one likes sun and the other does NOT like sun.

Thanks

 

Richard

Edited February 5, 2018 by GDLWyverex

[Tracy]

You got what you purchased, not a belmoreana.  Leaf isn't arched up into a V with dangling ends like a belmoreana.  Looks like it was shade grown to me, so you may see some shock if you plant it out in a sunny spot right away.  Howea belmoreana pictured for comparison.

[GDLWyverex]

31 minutes ago, Tracy said:

You got what you purchased, not a belmoreana.  Leaf isn't arched up into a V with dangling ends like a belmoreana.  Looks like it was shade grown to me, so you may see some shock if you plant it out in a sunny spot right away.  Howea belmoreana pictured for comparison.

Thanks.

I put it in morning sun. It will probably fry a bit until the new fronds grow out, but I simply don't have shade for a palm that can grow to 18 Meters |-(

 

Richard

[5150cycad]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

You got what you purchased, not a belmoreana.  Leaf isn't arched up into a V with dangling ends like a belmoreana.  Looks like it was shade grown to me, so you may see some shock if you plant it out in a sunny spot right away.  Howea belmoreana pictured for comparison.

That’s an amazing looking palm Tracy. I personally think belmoreana is more attractive than the forsteriana, however I would be happy if I could grow either one. I have tried forsteriana but it just fried in the summer heat. Do you know if Belmoreana are hardier than forsteriana? 

[Darold Petty]

The dirty secret about H. belmoreana is that the leaf blade shape is variable.  Some are barely more recurved than H. forsteriana.   5150cycad has the best form,  I have examples from poor to excellent.  I had thought to start a thread showing this variability.  Perhaps I will still do this in the next several days.

  The 'old-school' convention wisdom was that H. belmoreana was about 2 F less hardy than H. forsteriana;  28F rather than 26F. I don't have a firm conviction about this because I have not suffered a frost for about 15 years.  (no summer warmth, either ! )   

[Ben in Norcal]

I've had one in ground here since 2013 in the EB.  No issues...though obviously in total shade here.

[5150cycad]

4 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

The dirty secret about H. belmoreana is that the leaf blade shape is variable.  Some are barely more recurved than H. forsteriana.   5150cycad has the best form,  I have examples from poor to excellent.  I had thought to start a thread showing this variability.  Perhaps I will still do this in the next several days.

  The 'old-school' convention wisdom was that H. belmoreana was about 2 F less hardy than H. forsteriana;  28F rather than 26F. I don't have a firm conviction about this because I have not suffered a frost for about 15 years.  (no summer warmth, either ! )   

I wish I could say that the belmoreana in the picture above was mine. I do agree that Tracy’s belmoreana is one of the best forms I have personally seen. Thank you for the information on hardiness. I think it is the heat that does me in. Maybe I will try one in the shade and see what happens. 

[Palm Tree Jim]

9 hours ago, 5150cycad said:

I wish I could say that the belmoreana in the picture above was mine. I do agree that Tracy’s belmoreana is one of the best forms I have personally seen. Thank you for the information on hardiness. I think it is the heat that does me in. Maybe I will try one in the shade and see what happens. 

Shade will be crucial for the palms success Brian.

I would give it a try for sure.

[Ben in Norcal]

10 hours ago, 5150cycad said:

I wish I could say that the belmoreana in the picture above was mine. I do agree that Tracy’s belmoreana is one of the best forms I have personally seen. Thank you for the information on hardiness. I think it is the heat that does me in. Maybe I will try one in the shade and see what happens. 

These guys take heat just fine (e.g. a week or more around 105, though cooling down at night) - as you say you just need them in shade.

[Darold Petty]

I offer my apology to Tracy for the attribution of his beautiful H. belmoreana to 5150cycad.    

[DoomsDave]

@GDLWyverex your plant appears to be a forsteriana. Which is a good thing.

Forsteriana are a much more versatile plant than belmoriana. Belmores are certainly pretty, but they will not take the sun, except right at the beach. Forsteriana will take the sun much better; there are nice specimens in full sun here in La Habra, 20+ miles from the sea, some 30 feet tall.

Belmores, on the other hand, burn if you look at them hard, it seems like, and quite badly too. I had a number growing in canopy and as soon as they peeked out a bit, they entered the burn ward. Ouch.

Be warned that your plant might burn, too. Keep it super-well-watered to help it recover and harden off.

[Tracy]

On 2/5/2018, 9:03:50, 5150cycad said:

I think it is the heat that does me in. Maybe I will try one in the shade and see what happens. 

If you have the shade, a belmoreana is worth the try Brian.  The ones I grew in Carlsbad, started out in mostly sun, so planted something to give them afternoon shade in summer (immediately to their west).  That seemed to help tremendously in helping protect them from burning.  Now they get full sun in the am's with a little filtered midday and filtered late day sun. They look flawless like the one I posted growing here in Leucadia.  Since its both much drier and hotter during the summer where you are in Escondido, the shade will be critical for success.

[DoomsDave]

@5150cycad, as @Tracy notes, shade is vital. Give your plants in the ground canopy from some high trees, like Jacarandas if you can.

[5150cycad]

Thanks @Tracy, @DoomsDave and @Ben In NorCal. The one at Tracy’s house in the picture is grown to perfection.  I have a couple spots on the top of my bank close to the fence that might work and provide enough shade for them to get established. l figure if it does really well I can take out the butias. I do love butias but there are so many other amazing palms that would look so much better (like a belmoreana or a prestoniana). I wish I would have know what I do now when I first started my garden. 

[Mostapha]

Regardless if it's a belmoreana or fosteriana it is still a very nice looking palm. I couldn't tell you which it is. I have just got a bunch of seeds of the fosteriana and I hope that someday they look as nice as that palm does. Wish you the best with it.

[GDLWyverex]

After reading all of the posts, I have decided to shoehorn the Forsteriana in amongst several trees, that presently provide cramped shade, that will eventually grow to a size that gives lots of spacious shade. Right now it is a bit cramped. but I fell that, better a temporarily cramped and difficult to appreciate Live palm that a permanently dead fried palm.

You can see in the photo that it is sharing space with several happy  rhapis excelsas

Along with the beautiful licuala that I am fostering for Mohsen and Awkonradi

as well as my own licuala

and several Chamaedorea Metallicas

I figure in a few more years that I will be able to better see and appreciate these beauties as that trees grow taller and provide more and better viewing space

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and info.

 

Richard

[Mostapha]

Beautiful palms. That Licuala looks wonderful.

[GDLWyverex]

1 hour ago, Mostapha said:

Beautiful palms. That Licuala looks wonderful.

It was a very distressed plant some several months ago when I ran across 2 of them, frying in the full blast Mexican sun. I bought one and did not have the funds for the second. When I posted the photos to get an ID and to explain why they were so ratty looking and why I only could buy one of them, Mohsen and Awknoradi, participants in this forum, sent me money to save the one that I couldn't buy, so now there are two and they are both much happier.

 

Richard

[Mostapha]

That's very nice of them, you have done a wonderful job with them. I have been considering getting seeds to germinate. I live n NYS so finding one here would be impossible, and I prefer not to buy something bare root paying more than what I would get would be worth on place such as e-bay. I germinated my own bismarkia, which I currently have 15 seedlings, because only ones I see for sale are shipped bare root..to risky.

[GDLWyverex]

1 hour ago, Mostapha said:

That's very nice of them, you have done a wonderful job with them. I have been considering getting seeds to germinate. I live n NYS so finding one here would be impossible, and I prefer not to buy something bare root paying more than what I would get would be worth on place such as e-bay. I germinated my own bismarkia, which I currently have 15 seedlings, because only ones I see for sale are shipped bare root..to risky.

They seem to be real touchy when young, though the older ones seem to be more forgiving of less than perfect conditions.

 

Richard

[piping plovers]

I wish I saw this conversation 11 months ago, but still remains interesting reading.  I agree with others, looks like a forsteriana to me too.  I photographed my potted H. forsteriana (pictured Left) next to my H. belmoreana (pictured right)  last autumn before bringing them in.  I like the side by side comparison between the forms.  These are grown indoors for the winter months.

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, piping plovers said:

I wish I saw this conversation 11 months ago, but still remains interesting reading.  I agree with others, looks like a forsteriana to me too.  I photographed my potted H. forsteriana (pictured Left) next to my H. belmoreana (pictured right)  last autumn before bringing them in.  I like the side by side comparison between the forms.  These are grown indoors for the winter months.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but both look like Howea forsteriana to me.  Even when small Howea belmoreana has the upright leaflets creating the V as opposed to the droopy leaflets of H forsteriana. 

[piping plovers]

Yes, I can see why the palm on the right looks like a forsteriana with the drooping leaflets after being drenched and weighed down by water. I am sure it is belmoreana, however, as the fronds have a rigid inflexible curve to them as opposed to my forsterianas.  When I look at the leaves front on they do have a V as opposed to the forsterianas - easier to see when they are not drenched.   These grow in heavy shade and I think they have a different look than the outdoor specimens grown in higher light.  The belmoreanas grown in sun appear almost prickly, like they would be sharp to touch.  A pic below in an un-drenched state.

 

[joe_OC]

Belmoreana all day long.  I will most likely be taking out 3 kentias to make room for other palms in the garden.

 

 

J

[Tyrone]

On LHI the belmoreanas tend to grow in denser rainforest areas on soil that is wetter and with much more loam than the forsterianas. H forsteriana is a larger palm growing almost down to the high tide mark on sandier soils much like a coconut would. The best belmoreanas grow along creeks in rainforest in dappled light on what appears to be mineral rich loam and humus. Where rainforest has been cleared some remnant belmoreanas exist along creek lines in full sun etc but they are not as good looking or as happy as sitting in the cooler moist rainforest. Thats what I observed anyway.

[piping plovers]

Thanks Tyrone for providing all that detailed information on their native growing conditions.  I always like to know as much as possible about the natural habitat of plants that I am growing; great tools for best horticultural practices.  Your post confirms some hunches that I had about their preferred culture: specifically, understory location, richer soil, and more moisture.   I used to think I was baby-ing them too much by not putting them in more sun; but It takes so long for them to refresh all their foliage.   I just didn't want to look at sunburned, yellow foliage for one mistake and for all that time.  The reality is that in my cold winter climate they will always be primarily houseplants so never enough time in summer to really acclimate them to more sun without sacrificing their existing foliage and overall appearance.