Spear pull x 2

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Well I knew there would be an attrition ratewith my plantation but I didnt think it'd be that quick and easy. Had 2 pull today sadly and checked all my others and they are stout still. Here's hpping they pull through, but we have had an exceptionally cold fall and have had 3 cold snaps already so the palms saw as low as 16F for an hour or 3 and 18 and 19f the other times. All brief with day times over freezing. They are mulched a little and under a canopy that prevents cold rain or snow to hit them their first year, not to mention the rope lights that prevent frozen soil above the roots and trunk.

 

What puzzles tye heck out of me is the livistona chinensi and chamerops humilis look OUTSTANDING with no pull, while the trachycarpus had 2 pull. Lets just say my confidence is severly shaken. 

 

20171216_163149.thumb.jpg.2395a6dc8559fe20171216_162731.thumb.jpg.6c4e04bf1fa2cf

 

 

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Here is my livistona chinensis. The old growth is dying back, although the huge may frond is still the best looking one. But the spears from each tree are big and strong with no signs of issues as of yet. The yellowing or whitening frond to the right came out after the big green one by a few months from the same tree and died first. Weird.

20171216_162558.thumb.jpg.6660890ab7708620171216_162605.thumb.jpg.9239a3f86f623f

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As usual the chamerops humils is looking perky and as healthy as can be.20171216_162520.thumb.jpg.edaa7fa760dfd0

 

Here is the biggest and healthiest trachycarpus I have and its one that pulled...20171216_162637.thumb.jpg.bf271a78100fb9

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Newest leaf is the most tender and isn't unusual to burn first.  I have said for years on this forum that Trachycarpus is tender and will cough up a spear easily until it gets to about a 15G size.  I have had spear pull like crazy on hundreds at a time at temps around 20-22F.  The good news is that they will most likely push out of it.

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1 minute ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Newest leaf is the most tender and isn't unusual to burn first.  I have said for years on this forum that Trachycarpus is tender and will cough up a spear easily until it gets to about a 15G size.  I have had spear pull like crazy on hundreds at a time at temps around 20-22F.  The good news is that they will most likely push out of it.

 

Ok thats great news! I have 7 trachys in the ground and they all look great save for the 2 that pulled and the ones that did pull were my strongest ones! I have poured peroxide on the 2 just in case. Can yall send prayers lol!

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It'll take a while for the others to pull. Based on the weather forecast id say you need to put more mulch around them, or pull that plastic down to the ground. 

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23 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

It'll take a while for the others to pull. Based on the weather forecast id say you need to put more mulch around them, or pull that plastic down to the ground. 

 

How cold would require the wall? I was told 14f and thats a very rare and short occurrence. Heck even my chamerops accidentally took the brunt of a 15f night its first year because the forcast was WAY off. Our forcast looks like we are going back to average.

Screenshot_20171216-204804.thumb.png.4f8

How big would you define a 15g?

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Ok second peroxide application and the big one fizzed a good bit but the other only a little. The big one has a gaping hole about as round as my index finger. But after the peroxide it looks very light in color, while before it was brownish. I plan to peroxide until there isnt anymore bubbling unless yall have better ideas. Here are some pics of the bad one.

 

20171218_202917.thumb.jpg.ff089388fd791820171218_202940.thumb.jpg.2780e60a1026cc

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Time to stop with the peroxide and don't pour anymore in there.  Now you have a spearless hole with peroxide that has reducted into pure water which will freeze.  Let it dry out until spring.

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On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2017‎ ‎7‎:‎51‎:‎16‎, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

How cold would require the wall? I was told 14f and thats a very rare and short occurrence. Heck even my chamerops accidentally took the brunt of a 15f night its first year because the forcast was WAY off. Our forcast looks like we are going back to average.

Screenshot_20171216-204804.thumb.png.4f8

How big would you define a 15g?

Did you check your weather forecast yet?  Looks like you will have five straight days below freezing so you need to enclose the sides of your shelter or all of those palms will die.

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Heres my current forcast:20171218_223445.thumb.png.b32ab746e4e8fa

 

I need to make repairs to my canopy so I'll wall it in when I do. What temp do they need that level of protection? Or is this just a precaution to prevent more pulled spears? Either way Idont mind protecting for the first couple of years after that they will surely be too big to protect and ill be acclimated. I just thought the trachycarpus would be on par with my 1 year acclimated chamerops humilis. Guess i was wrong. Oh well live and learn!

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@mdsonofthesouth - how does that plastic canopy hold up to the winter wind and snow loads?

From my experience, I've had smaller/younger Trachycarpus princeps and Chamaerops humilis var. 'Cerifera' spear pull at 19 degrees F.  Smaller Trachycarpus takil spear pulled at 17.3 F.  Fortunately, my Trachycarpus fortunei is bigger than the 15 gallon size now, but it has never lost a spear over the past six years.

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Well we honestly don't get enough snow to make the 6mil tarp be an issue. What you see in the picture is about 90% of the snow we get with larger storms being rare and once every few years. The chamerops humilis in the 5th picture saw 15F its first winter because I planned per the forecast and it was VERY wrong. So it saw the brunt of that weather with nothing more than a mulching and rope light. The size it is in the picture is maybe twice or so the size of what it was when that happened. 

 

As for more on the canopy well it was originally designed differently but I impulsively modified it to cover all palms. Its not in rough shape but is rough around the corners, but it works. I will be doing some repairs and modifying of the canopy in prep for walls (going on tomorrow when Im workign from home) but we will be in the 60s very soon So I will likely get some thermocubes to turn the lights off even though they don't touch the plants. Tomorrow morning they will all be walled in with 6 mil painters tarp aka greenhouse plastic for the remainder of the winter. I was not aware that trachycarpus were more tender than a chamerops humilis thats only seen 1 winter and apparently there is a cold front coming and we will be in the low to mid 30's for the day and possible high teens  to low 20s at night and I'm not taking ANY chances after getting 2 spears pulled. With how fast they grow here I assume Ill have 1-2 more winters like this and then they should be good to be mostly on their own from here on out. I will likely do lights and maybe umbrellas for the coldest rains/freezes, but honestly might just let them go and see what happens. 

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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On 12/16/2017, 8:51:16, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

How cold would require the wall? I was told 14f and thats a very rare and short occurrence. Heck even my chamerops accidentally took the brunt of a 15f night its first year because the forcast was WAY off. Our forcast looks like we are going back to average.

Screenshot_20171216-204804.thumb.png.4f8

How big would you define a 15g?

it's been colder this Fall in my area compared to prior years also although it hasn't dipped below 27f according to my thermometer. Here's around a 15g size.

img-1204.jpeg

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9 minutes ago, Ninja88 said:

it's been colder this Fall in my area compared to prior years also although it hasn't dipped below 27f according to my thermometer. Here's around a 15g size.

img-1204.jpeg

 

Awesome! Thanks for the perspective! We had the coldest August I can remember and september was chilly too. Sure we had typical 80s and 90s both months but we had tons of chilly periods more so as well as our first frost (light) came over 1.5 months sooner than average. Despite all this people still think we had a warm fall....go figure. Our late fall has also bee well bellow average. December is supposed to be 45-55f highs with 27-35F lows. We have dipped into the teens 3 times already which happens every year occasionally but only in Jan and Feb. 

 

The farmers almanac touted this winter as wet but average and its been nothing but bellow average, even snowfall is out of whack and we arent even out of fall yet! By Jan 1 we usually don't get anything, and if we do its flurries or a dusting at most. We have had a 4in storm and 2 dusting this month alone! The more I think of it the more I'm OK with the pain of walling my little palms up. Might just build greenhouses from the get go for the next 1-2 years before they are too big. These palms love our March to November weather and grow fast even on plantation years. 

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Well did an "after action" check right after the event we just had and everything was fine and dandy then. Go in today to open it up and air things out since it was going to be ~70F. Well after a quick look things are far worse than I thought. I have have 4/5 Trachycarpus on the front/north end of my garden that have pull, the livistona spears are still green and strong but its fully defoliated (was expected), but the REALLY sad news is the smaller 2/4 suckers on the chamerops humilis pulled. The chamerops spears looked good and there was no brown or fizzing with hydrogen peroxide, but they still pulled. The only fizzing palms were the biggest trachycarpus and one other middle sized one. The others that pulled looked "clean" with no brown/smell. 

 

Really sad at this point and quite discouraged. I'm not ever going to give up on any of my palms until its 100% certain they are dead. But its not looking good. The palms around back look good, even the one that pulled, but Im down to 2 non spear pulled palms, half the chamerops suckers, and the livistona that's just a few spears popping up. 

 

Heres whats left of the Livistona chinensis. The spears are solid and still pretty green. This is 100% as I expected this south Florida grown bargi clump to end up and that's OK. Will see how viable it is over the years and if it don't work Ill put my next marginal in its place.

20180112_164058.thumb.jpg.23d1887e5eeab6

Still some green and semi supple leaves yet, but I just bit the bullet and cut them away as it was only a matter of a week or so til they'd be full brown. Maybe a rookie move?

20180112_164135.thumb.jpg.be52952b85ac5c

Spears/fronds that pulled from some of the suckers on the Chamerops humilis. This is the saddest I have been about my plants...

20180112_163955.thumb.jpg.75e740494e79e7

Here is the pulled sucker...was the second largest but far from biggest or fastest growing sucker. 

20180112_164146.thumb.jpg.4faf645d451327

Here is whats left...

20180112_164048.thumb.jpg.612b89d6c9fc63

Here is the damage to the trachycarpus. There are 3/5 up front that look like this. The closest fronds to the spear look bad and the older fronds still look good with zero burn. I take that as a bad sign for the growing point but then again Im somewhat of a noobie. 

20180112_164021.thumb.jpg.38360ae499d3a5

 

Here is the biggest of all my trachy carpus. Another frond bites the dust and the fizzing from peroxide tells me its still "sick"

 

20180112_164036.thumb.jpg.cc964ef85fc45920180112_164224.thumb.jpg.bf72db32286987

 

Basically Im pretty discouraged at this point, but not enough to quit. I will care for them til they are 100% gone, and hopefully Ill still have some left in spring. Most worried about the chamerops, and pretty much come to grips with the fact Im going to lose some trachycarpus (hope they all bounce back though!). At this point it is what it is and Ill see where everythign is in spring and go from there. But Im now pivoting my methods a little and going to look into getting bigger palms to start with instead of startig with more tender smaller specimens. 

 

 

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I still don't think that livistona will make it but your windmills and med fan will probably pull through if they only got down to the temps that you posted here.  I know everyone thinks I'm crazy but Trachycarpus is sensitive when young and spear pull like crazy.

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Yeah which is why I'm considering replacing with bigger palms that arent as tender. There is a guy in Maryland that has a livistona and claims its basically a perennial much like musa basjoo.

 

Basically the ones that die will either get replaced by a 3ft or greater trunked takil or fortunei or replaced with a trunking yucca as those are brain dead easy here.

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Starting to see damage on windmills here too.  Leaves are only slightly burned, but spear pulls on 3 already.  These are similar size to yours, mdsonofthesouth.  All palms that showed damage immediately are dead, except Livistona chinensis. The B. odorata that spear pulled is going to lose every leaf.  Small waggie palms are goners.

Edited by Turtlesteve
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Oh wow sorry to hear that @Turtlesteve. None of my palms showed any damage, save for the livistona and 2 pulled spears, until the weather got nice. Even after the pulled spears the remaining fronds looked perfect with no burn until the warm up. The damaged fronds around the spear are only on 3/7 trachcarpus and the chamaerops fronds are flawless save for the pulled spears. With how variable the weather can be here Im starting to think Im on a fools errand trying to grow these. Going to nurture and take care of what I got until they finally give up the ghost, and Im going care for them as if they have a chance. But next time Ill try bigger palms and if those dont work Ill probably stick to non trunking palms and yuccas as they are bulletproof here. At least yucca gloriosa var lone star looks palm-ish.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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51 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Oh wow sorry to hear that @Turtlesteve. None of my palms showed any damage, save for the livistona and 2 pulled spears, until the weather got nice. Even after the pulled spears the remaining fronds looked perfect with no burn until the warm up. The damaged fronds around the spear are only on 3/7 trachcarpus and the chamaerops fronds are flawless save for the pulled spears. With how variable the weather can be here Im starting to think Im on a fools errand trying to grow these. Going to nurture and take care of what I got until they finally give up the ghost, and Im going care for them as if they have a chance. But next time Ill try bigger palms and if those dont work Ill probably stick to non trunking palms and yuccas as they are bulletproof here. At least yucca gloriosa var lone star looks palm-ish.

I had 3 Chamaerops in the ground.  The smallest one (green) was killed outright, a larger green one has leaf burn.  The third one is the silver form and looks great so far.

There are many mature Chamaerops and Windmills around here...so I'm probably pretty safe if I can get them to trunking size.  I'll definitely be better prepared next winter.

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You could have also had plants with bad genetics, or ones grown in Florida like me. Heck I could have both situations. Chamaerops is a zone push for sure, but has taken so much since I put it in the ground with at most tip burn. So I was totally surprised when it pulled...

 

Trachycarpus is technically a push too, but there are a few around Maryland doing just fine. So with some TLC they are doable. But all of my palms are super young and most likely from Florida so other than march in the Home Depot nursery and in ground at my garden is the only cold they have ever experienced. 

 

Hoping we both fair better in the spring, really rooting for the 7g cerifera I'm putting in the ground in march. But my real hope is that my chamaerops recovers as its the nearest and dearest to me being my first palm and all!

 

Heres an old shot of the most famous trachycarpus in the state. From what we are told it receives no protection. 

Palmtree_solomons.jpg

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i feel sick reading your posts and seeing the pics. we have had an ultra mild winter so far in the UK   this year  but i feel your pain. I have lost quite a few seedlings to damp issues because everything is wet for ages. some larger palms have got a leaf issue where they get spots that gradually get bigger and look really bad. im sure its because of the damp and low light. syagrus gets it the worst but also others

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Yeah spring will tell the true damage. Been nursing them best I can, and the current mild weather has been great, but we have 2-3 days with lows in the upper teens low 20s in early feb. So not totally out of the woods yet, but honestly I think the most is behind us. Sadly feb and mar can surprise us...

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Wondering if I should start surgery or let it work itself out. Forcast has us at above freezing with highs ranging from mid to high 40s to nearly 70s. Lows still in the 30s though, might could frost but it'd be quick per the forecast.

20180212_231920.thumb.jpg.d23451f9ec019c

20180212_231915.thumb.jpg.6ea34658e6488c

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Let it be for now. It is still to early for surgery. 

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Ok cool thanks. First spear pull I have ever dealt with and want to try and do anything and everything to help these palms recover. 

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4 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Ok cool thanks. First spear pull I have ever dealt with and want to try and do anything and everything to help these palms recover. 

Yes, I agree. Let it work itself out. 

It looks very much alive and should pull through. My trachy was similar and now I have noticed new growth. You can see from the picture here the brown cold damage with healthy new growth underneath. This will likely happen with yours too. 

IMAG0157.jpg

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5 of the trachycarpus are on the NW garden 2 on the SW garden. The NW trachycarpus are much greener, save for a few fried fronds, woke up to 70s in the early AM and didnt have time to uncover after the event before the temps rose. But the SW palms look a little more stressed and closer to yours @Ninja88 . The 2/7 that didnt pull have very green and very solid spears. Hoping in the next few weeks to start seeing growth out of all, but expect to lose a few. Considering how they were growing up until the events of late Dec/early Jan I dont doubt this weather we are forecasted should be enough for them to wake up. Crossing my fingers!

 

Heres our forcast and typically we are a few degrees warmer than up in town, but given standard deviation its the same. 

5a83443abe0db_weathermidfeb2.PNG.0e4606f

 

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Late Feb update. The seriousness of this winter and its damage are becoming more evident. Even naturalized plants like crepe myrtle and my young magnolia grandfloria saw a little damage, but they were fresh this year and all specimens are small and young. So if naturalized plants saw damage then palms will too and mine sure have! @PalmTreeDude Here are the pictures of my palms and such in the ground. The yuccas and other naturalized plants saw 100% of winter with zero protection in some of my worst microclimates with yuccas being the only flawless plants that have not changed one bit since summer!

 

Video of the damage

 

Chamaerops humilis (all these saw this too) saw 10-12F for extended periods of time and lots of teens. Saddest thing for me as this was my first palm :( Hope it comes back

5a958d31cadf5_2-27-18Chamaeropshumilis.t

5a958d4182399_2-27-18(NW)Trachypulled1.t

 

Here is the "alpha" palm that was my best in ground coming into winter

5a95a45d4ee20_2-27-18(alpha)Trachypulled

Healthy spears on NW corner

5a95a64d1b881_2-27-18Trachyhealthyspears

healthy spears SW corner looking alot better than up front. Even the one that pulled out back looks better than all but the "alpha" 

5a95a699329a2_2-27-18Trachyhealthyspears

Yucca Gloriosa var lone star breezing through a horrible winter with ease....5a95a708e26d7_2-27-18YuccaGloriosavar.Lo

 

....save for a few spots, which are exponentially less abundant this year. Last year there were alot more spots (and they were MUCH bigger) and drooping leaves by this time. While this year there aren't any drooping and ALOT less spots despite a far more brutal winter and changing nothing with the care. Ill call it acclimation. All these yucca are naturalized in my humble opinion as they succor with ease and even in the first year of plantation. Also the flower when mature and the hummingbirds just love them!

 

5a95a810a5ee8_2-27-18YuccaGloriosavar.Lo5a95a80f9d088_2-27-18YuccaBluecentury.th

 

 

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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The med fan will survive. 

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7 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Late Feb update. The seriousness of this winter and its damage are becoming more evident. Even naturalized plants like crepe myrtle and my young magnolia grandfloria saw a little damage, but they were fresh this year and all specimens are small and young. So if naturalized plants saw damage then palms will too and mine sure have! @PalmTreeDude Here are the pictures of my palms and such in the ground. The yuccas and other naturalized plants saw 100% of winter with zero protection in some of my worst microclimates with yuccas being the only flawless plants that have not changed one bit since summer!

 

Video of the damage

 

Chamaerops humilis (all these saw this too) saw 10-12F for extended periods of time and lots of teens. Saddest thing for me as this was my first palm :( Hope it comes back

5a958d31cadf5_2-27-18Chamaeropshumilis.t

5a958d4182399_2-27-18(NW)Trachypulled1.t

 

Here is the "alpha" palm that was my best in ground coming into winter

5a95a45d4ee20_2-27-18(alpha)Trachypulled

Healthy spears on NW corner

5a95a64d1b881_2-27-18Trachyhealthyspears

healthy spears SW corner looking alot better than up front. Even the one that pulled out back looks better than all but the "alpha" 

5a95a699329a2_2-27-18Trachyhealthyspears

Yucca Gloriosa var lone star breezing through a horrible winter with ease....5a95a708e26d7_2-27-18YuccaGloriosavar.Lo

 

....save for a few spots, which are exponentially less abundant this year. Last year there were alot more spots (and they were MUCH bigger) and drooping leaves by this time. While this year there aren't any drooping and ALOT less spots despite a far more brutal winter and changing nothing with the care. Ill call it acclimation. All these yucca are naturalized in my humble opinion as they succor with ease and even in the first year of plantation. Also the flower when mature and the hummingbirds just love them!

 

5a95a810a5ee8_2-27-18YuccaGloriosavar.Lo5a95a80f9d088_2-27-18YuccaBluecentury.th

 

 

Those are nice palms. I hope many do pull through, some obviously will. Those yucca are nice too! 

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13 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The med fan will survive. 

 

I sure hope so!

 

10 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Those are nice palms. I hope many do pull through, some obviously will. Those yucca are nice too! 

 

Me too, hoping a couple trachycarpus make it though. Not worried in the least about he livistona clump as I'm pretty sure I will be digging it up regardless for a pot or compost. As for the yuccas I wish I could claim credit but they just grow so well here! Give them a spot in the ground and a little food a d they take off. Both tripled in size their first year in ground.

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On 1/13/2018, 10:34:56, mdsonofthesouth said:

Heres an old shot of the most famous trachycarpus in the state. From what we are told it receives no protection. 

Palmtree_solomons.jpg

I've seen that photo before. I found that palm from space in my thread Northmost Cultivation in Discussing Palm Trees Worldwide. This palm is growing on a peninsula, which looks like a favorable microclimate.

How are your palms doing now, @mdsonofthesouth?

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Posted (edited)

On 4/22/2018, 3:38:23, Palmsbro said:

I've seen that photo before. I found that palm from space in my thread Northmost Cultivation in Discussing Palm Trees Worldwide. This palm is growing on a peninsula, which looks like a favorable microclimate.

How are your palms doing now, @mdsonofthesouth?

Some are recovering well others are still declining. Wont be giving up til all fronds are brown without a spear. About to give then their 2nd shot of kelp and fish fertilizer.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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23 minutes ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Some are recovering well others are still declining. Wont be giving up til all fronds are brown without a spear. About to give then their 2nd shot of kelp and fish fertilizer.

That some are still declining is not a good sign. :( Hopefully there is no rot/infection.

Keep it up with the fertilizer/kelp shots. If I had palms in the same condition as yours (or any at all, as I have no yard of my own and currently have no real palms inside) (or any other situation involving seriously damaged palms for that matter), then I wouldn't give up on them either unless they were completely dead.

I wish you the best of luck with your palms.

 

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Thanks! Yeah won't give up til its for sure over. Sadly its only a matter of time, but I am still holding out hope for a few that pulled. The 2 that didn't and my chamaerops humilis are growing. Even had the livistona chinensis pop out 2 spears. Both of my chamaerops and cerifera are growing but still looking a little rough. But I think they will make it!

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Are you Marylanders out of the frost for good yet?

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Posted (edited)

We have been for a while. We might get a light frost in early april but burns off easy and early with highs in late march early april being high 50s to 66+. But April has been weird to say the least... much like late october through march.... Usually last real frost is mid march and still burns off with an average high at 55f for the month.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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Your average high for this month will be 55 degrees in April?

I'm very surprised you can grow much of anything else besides T. Fortunei, wow. You have really inspired me!

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    • Finally planted the sagos and update on potted trachycarpus
      By mdsonofthesouth
      So as the title says I finally planted my sago palms about a week or so ago and hoping for the best, but planning on the worst. Pretty much dont expect them to live, and at the very best they will flush and defoliate until they do die. Either way I needed them out of pots as I'm not a fan of potted plants. Also my new trachycarpus that I potted up recently is still declining. The only hope is the healthy looking green spear. Sure would hate to have to return it... All my other potted up to be planted later palms are looking wonderful! Although sadly plantation might have to wait til 2019 as the addition isn't looking to be done soon enough for my latest date. 
       
       
       
    • In limbo palms, cycads and yucca
      By mdsonofthesouth
      Here is the curling trachycarpus, dying yucca gloriosa and others. Can't wait to put them in the ground!
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • Neglected Trachycarpus fortunei growth rate in Maryland
      By mdsonofthesouth
      So I posted this palm in another thread and just looked on google maps per a PM on here thanks @MDPalm! The first picture is july 2014, last is from mid to late December. Growth rate isnt terribly fast, but OC is NOTORIUS for neglecting any and all landscaping (especially "exotics"). Judging by the size its been here for a while, and easily escaped my eyes for years as its of the beaten path, unless you were big on car washes while on vacation. I am not lol.
       
      July 2014

       
      December 2017

    • Here is proof windmill palms can survive the winter on Long Island
      By islandwidepalmtrees.com
      Hi my name is Kevin and I am the owner of Island Wide Palm Trees, we are located on Long Island in New York. We sell palm trees as far south as Virginia and as far north as Massachusetts. 
      Here is pictures of one of my customer's Windmill Palms that have survived the past 4 winters. This spring will be 5 winters.  You can not ask for better then this.
      The best way to keep the trees alive is to have a good wrapping system. We have an amazing wrapping system that you can see on our website.
      https://www.islandwidepalmtrees.com 
      and here is a link to our Facebook video we posted last year about these trees. (wrapping and planting is extra right now)
       
       
      https://www.facebook.com/islandwidepalmtrees/videos/913475538799411/     
      If you have any questions about how to keep these windmills alive feel free to contact me. I will be more than happy to try and help you.