Most exotic palms in 9b

[Insomniac411]

So as I fill my yard with as many palms as possible here in st.jonhs county Florida midway between Jacksonville and St.Augustine 9b temps, my last few spots are being reserved for more exotic 'out of the box' palms. Typical landscapes here incl. queens, Washingtonias, sables, cidp, and Sylvesters. Occasionally you'll find Bizmarks which are becoming more popular,  mule palms, livistona palms, and on rare occasion Copernicus caranday (was palm).  Now while this seems like a large list, it's actually quite boring seeing the same over and over. After purchasing a beccariopheonix alfr edii, all I can do is fantasize about more exotic plants that look nothing like the rest of the neighbors landscape. So according to my research, these are my short list plants i am on the hunt for. 1.parajubaea torallyi.     2.chambeyronia macrocarpa.  3.Burretiokentia hapala.    4.dypsis decipens. So I would love any input including where I can find any of these beauties here in florida, and if you know of any other 9b tolerant exotics, I'd love to hear it.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

The parajubaea wont make it through your summers, so i wouldnt go that route.  

[Insomniac411]

3 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The parajubaea wont make it through your summers, so i wouldnt go that route.  

I intend on putting it in a shady area. No good? I guess I'm thinking more of the cold hardiness than what the heat would do.

[Laaz]

Parajubaea sunkha might be a better bet. I'm in 9a, had a friend bring me a 15 gal from CA last summer. Sailed through last winter & this summer and is doing great. Only time will tell.

[Insomniac411]

I totally ruined this post becuase I'm in zone 9a, but kept referring as 9b. Can't seem to find an edit link :(

[Xerarch]

1 minute ago, Insomniac411 said:

I totally ruined this post becuase I'm in zone 9a, but kept referring as 9b. Can't seem to find an edit link :(

Lol I wondered about that, I thought 9b might just be a little optimistic for a location between Jacksonville and St. Augustine 

[Insomniac411]

4 minutes ago, Laaz said:

Parajubaea sunkha might be a better bet. I'm in 9a, had a friend bring me a 15 gal from CA last summer. Sailed through last winter & this summer and is doing great. Only time will tell.

4 minutes ago, Laaz said:

Yes, I wouldn't mind trying one of them myself. Sucks that these palm places only being in the same old same old

[Insomniac411]

1 minute ago, Xerarch said:

Lol I wondered about that, I thought 9b might just be a little optimistic for a location between Jacksonville and St. Augustine 

Brain fart

[Insomniac411]

9a!

[Beespalms]

A few good 9a/b palms I have successfully tired in central Florida.  Arenga engleri, allogoptera arenaria, trithrinax campestris, any butia species, burretokentia happala, any rhapis species, syagrus schizophyla, Copernicia macroglossa.archontophoenix purpurea and cunninghamiana "Illawarra"

[kinzyjr]

If you want a decent list, you could use the one attached as a reference.  I can't claim that I've grown everything on the list or that it is 100% accurate, but this made a good experimental case query.  Brahea isn't too common, but might not like the humidity.  A number of butia should grow well there.  Chamaedorea has a number of hardy species, especially radicalis.  Nannorrhops is pretty hardy, but probably won't care for our moisture and humidity.  Not sure if the nematodes would be a problem where you are at, but Trachycarpus has a lot of species.  Regarding the list you gave, I'd say the Dypsis has the best chance of being successful.

9A_or_Less.xls

[Insomniac411]

Thank you guys so much. Absolutely what I'm interested in researching.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Solid 9A choices:

Allogoptera Arenaria,

Acrocomia Totai,

Brahea Brandegeei,

Brahea Edulis

Brahea Clara

Jubaea hybrids

Jubaopsis Caffra

Mule Palm

N. Ritcheana will handle humidity without issue

Parajubaea sunkha will do ok with humidity.  TVT and coco don't make it here either.

Sabal Uresana

Trithrinax anthacoma

Trithrinax Campestris

 

[palmad Merc]

Sounds like a very similar climate to Sydney Australia.

[jreich85]

You might not be too far off with 9B, depending on your microclimate. I live in southeast Jax and will call my climate 9B until I'm proven otherwise by a miserable winter. Dypsis decipiens would be great. I've also noticed that caryotas can grow up here, although that is an acquired taste. Although folks from south Florida would laugh at me for saying this, i like seeing Dypsis lutescens up here, and know of some established ones here and there.

 I also would like to see if anyone can recommend a palm place in this area. There's a place on US 1 just south of 9B that has some more exotic palms, but they seem kind of expensive. 

It's not exotic, but if you would like a free small butia, let me know. I have two potted up in my yard that I want to replace with something more exotic. 

[RedRabbit]

I think you might enjoy reviewing this post: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/9291-zone-9b-palm-list-expands-again/&do=findComment&comment=551519

[RichAZ]

7 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The parajubaea wont make it through your summers, so i wouldnt go that route.  

Amen to that.  I planted a tor tor here in AZ.  Grew fast and strong until Summer hit then fried and died.  Wonderful palm, just doesn't like it too hot.  

[VA Jeff]

Well, I think beccariophoenix alfredii is pretty awesome, but you are looking for other suggestions.  Site it near a dryer vent of a stone wall, and you might could grow a dypsis onilahensis or euterpe edulis (mind the frost though).  Livistona chinensis may be common, but pretty nice anyway.  Hey, a well sited king palm even might stand a shot.  In a warm zone 9a like yours, you could go the route of running a frost cable around the bud that only goes on at 32 degrees during the winter.  If the cable isn't directly touching the palm, it won't burn it w/o a cover, but if a cold winter night sets in, you can keep the palm alive, even if the leaves die.  For those once in a decade or more freezes.

Edited October 23, 2017 by VA Jeff

[Sandy Loam]

From your list, I would avoid Dypsis Decipiens unless you plan to live to age 200.  Mine has been just sitting there for years and has barely grown.

If you already have a very filled-out landcape full of "safe" palms, then you can afford to take risks with palms that are marginal and will die with every once-a-decade freeze (and their loss will not be missed because the surrounding landscape is already filled out maturely).  That has been my philosophy, but you can't afford to waste time with slow growers in those risk-taking spots. You need palms that will grow at lightning speed.  My risky ones are archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Kentopsis oliviformis and a few others, but the archontophoenix cunninghamiana are the fastest growers.  They might reach twenty feet tall before your next major freeze hits.

[Insomniac411]

8 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

Well, I think beccariophoenix alfredii is pretty awesome, but you are looking for other suggestions.  Site it near a dryer vent of a stone wall, and you might could grow a dypsis onilahensis or euterpe edulis (mind the frost though).  Livistona chinensis may be common, but pretty nice anyway.  Hey, a well sited king palm even might stand a shot.  In a warm zone 9a like yours, you could go the route of running a frost cable around the bud that only goes on at 32 degrees during the winter.  If the cable isn't directly touching the palm, it won't burn it w/o a cover, but if a cold winter night sets in, you can keep the palm alive, even if the leaves die.  For those once in a decade or more freezes.

The local palm guy brought in a bunch of King Palms in. I've been so tempted but all my reading on them keep me at bay. He states they have been doing good here for the last 10 yrs. I think 2007 was a brutal cold year for northern Florida.

[Insomniac411]

10 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I think you might enjoy reviewing this post: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/9291-zone-9b-palm-list-expands-again/&do=findComment&comment=551519

That is an amazing source of information, especially becuase I too am in st.johns county, and probably in the exact same climate these test were conducted. Thanks so much.

[Missi]

15 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

Well, I think beccariophoenix alfredii is pretty awesome, but you are looking for other suggestions.  Site it near a dryer vent of a stone wall, and you might could grow a dypsis onilahensis or euterpe edulis (mind the frost though).  Livistona chinensis may be common, but pretty nice anyway.  Hey, a well sited king palm even might stand a shot.  In a warm zone 9a like yours, you could go the route of running a frost cable around the bud that only goes on at 32 degrees during the winter.  If the cable isn't directly touching the palm, it won't burn it w/o a cover, but if a cold winter night sets in, you can keep the palm alive, even if the leaves die.  For those once in a decade or more freezes.

Frost cable! I didn't know that was "a thing"!  How do you wrap it around a palm without it touching, please?

7 hours ago, Insomniac411 said:

The local palm guy brought in a bunch of King Palms in. I've been so tempted but all my reading on them keep me at bay. He states they have been doing good here for the last 10 yrs. I think 2007 was a brutal cold year for northern Florida.

For ALL of FL 

[Insomniac411]

15 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

From your list, I would avoid Dypsis Decipiens unless you plan to live to age 200.  Mine has been just sitting there for years and has barely grown.

If you already have a very filled-out landcape full of "safe" palms, then you can afford to take risks with palms that are marginal and will die with every once-a-decade freeze (and their loss will not be missed because the surrounding landscape is already filled out maturely).  That has been my philosophy, but you can't afford to waste time with slow growers in those risk-taking spots. You need palms that will grow at lightning speed.  My risky ones are archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Kentopsis oliviformis and a few others, but the archontophoenix cunninghamiana are the fastest growers.  They might reach twenty feet tall before your next major freeze hits.

Just looked up your archontophoenix cunninghamiana. Beautiful tree. Where are you growing this?

[Sandy Loam]

In Gainesville, Florida (colder than St. Augustine where you are located).  Mine have done fine for the past seven years here, but another 2009-2010 style freeze will kill them.  That was our last major freeze event, and yours too.

They are not "forever" palms here, but they do grow big quickly.

When you wrote that the local grower had King Palms, did you means Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana or Archontophoenix Alexandrae (less cold-hardy) or Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana var. Illaware (less cold-hardy).

 

I planted some more Cunningham Palms about two months ago, but they came from Miami and may not turn out to be as cold-hardy as my original ones (which were of California provenance). Time will tell.

[Insomniac411]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

In Gainesville, Florida (colder than St. Augustine where you are located).  Mine have done fine for the past seven years here, but another 2009-2010 style freeze will kill them.  That was our last major freeze event, and yours too.

They are not "forever" palms here, but they do grow big quickly.

When you wrote that the local grower had King Palms, did you means Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana or Archontophoenix Alexandrae (less cold-hardy) or Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana var. Illaware (less cold-hardy).

 

I planted some more Cunningham Palms about two months ago, but they came from Miami and may not turn out to be as cold-hardy as my original ones (which were of California provenance). Time will tell.

I have no clue. Doubt he does also. He told me King Palm and as soon as I looked it up I read zone 10 so I dismissed him. He also has adonidia palms and foxatails  (wodyetia bifurcata) all a good zone ten.  I can't stand yellow fronds, so if they survive, but get hurt by the cold, I'd rather not habe them at all. Sometimes it takes all summer to recoup, only to get hit by winter again.

[Sandy Loam]

I would not risk planting Foxtail palms or adonidia (Christmas Palms) here in northern Florida, although I see them thriving all over the place in Orlando and Tampa, and obviously down in southern Florida. If you plan to experience no temperatures below 24-25 degrees Fahrenheit where you are, a standard Cunningham Palm should be fine.  Mine experienced no frond damage last winter, but I do recall a previous winter when the cold had damaged the fronds and they were looking ratty. That is when I clip off the ugly fronds and let the rest of the jungle cover it all up. ... until spring.

My Leucothrinax Morrisii has never shown any damage here, although it might actually be a mislabelled Thrinax Radiata (looks more like it). That is a fairly tropical looking palm, but is a slow grower.  On the other hand, it may be a long term/forever palm in your region.

Almost anything livistona will be bulletproof in your region, including the tall ones which will look fantastic in twenty years, towering overhead.

Some people on PalmTalk swear by acrocomia totai in zone 9a, but I don't think anyone who has children (or plans to have children) should plant a tree with a spikey trunk.  

 

Give kentopsis oliviformis a try.   Some people on PalmTalk swear by it as a "warm zone 9a" palm.  There may be some controversy surrounding that claim, but certainly some people have had success with it in Houston, Texas, which is similar to, if not colder, than your winter climate.

 

[Insomniac411]

I'm sold! I'm definitely on the lookout for a kentopsis, and may check out the "kings" the local guy has too assuming they may be archonarchontophoenix cunninghamin. The big problem is finding these "exotics" because like I said, all you see here are the same ol same old. I know a lot of the palms are coming from the Daytona/orlando area. I just need to take a ride. I found a place called MB Palms near Daytona that carries a good selection of palms, but I haven't taken that ride yet.

[RedRabbit]

11 hours ago, Insomniac411 said:

That is an amazing source of information, especially becuase I too am in st.johns county, and probably in the exact same climate these test were conducted. Thanks so much.

You're welcome.  

11 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

Give kentopsis oliviformis a try.   Some people on PalmTalk swear by it as a "warm zone 9a" palm.  There may be some controversy surrounding that claim, but certainly some people have had success with it in Houston, Texas, which is similar to, if not colder, than your winter climate.

I agree Kentiopsis oliviformis might be worth a try. I understand it is as cold tolerant as Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, but it seems better suited for Florida's hot climate (at least in my experience.)  Unfortunately neither will do well in a true 9a climate.

FWIW, Ravenea rivularis might be a better bet than KO or AC. They might be boring given how common they are, but tough palms. 

 

[Insomniac411]

So I talked myself into trying out a king palm. Don't know what variation it is. Picked it up for $100 cash. What you think?

[RedRabbit]

Pretty sure that's a royal...

[Insomniac411]

Lol that's awsome I just bought something less tolerant than the one I was obsessing over.

[Insomniac411]

States a royal is a zone 10! Some report can take up to 28f. I'll do as much to care for it during cold snaps bit since I've been here, we haven't gotten down that low. In 4 years I'm here our low has been low 30s. I'll be prepared. 

[Laaz]

I agree & over priced. There's a place here that sells them that size for $50. 

[RedRabbit]

Mature royals may actually be more cold tolerant than kings. There are plenty in my area that surivived 23-25f in 2010.

I agree with Laaz that it was overpriced.

[Insomniac411]

I thought I got such a good deal. I need to get out of my bubble. Last year I bought a 45 gal B.Alfredii locally for $275 i hear in Orlando they have them for $200.  Time and gas, it'll probably cost me $300 or more making that drive. 

[kinzyjr]

@Insomniac411 Relax a little   @RedRabbit is right.  Royals are fairly sturdy palms.  During the January 2010 cold spell, we got a few nights in the mid-to-upper 20s, and most of our Royals survived.  Here is a rough comparison of our climates from Wunderground based on the Lakeland Airport and the St. Augustine Airport during that same freeze:

Lakeland, Florida					St. Augustine, FL
Jan. 2010					Jan. 2010
Day	High	Low	Cond.		Day	High	Low	Cond.
1	66	51	Rain		1	64	44	Rain
2	60	39			2	54	36
3	46	35			3	43	30
4	53	33			4	48	28
5	48	33			5	46	30
6	51	30			6	50	26
7	62	33			7	53	28
8	60	42			8	46	37
9	37	32	Rain		9	37	28	Rain
10	44	26			10	43	26
11	57	26			11	51	26
12	60	28			12	57	30
13	64	35			13	53	30
14	73	46			14	59	35
15	75	51			15	64	44

Your climate will trend a little cooler due to latitude, but a royal will be fine most years.  If you need to protect it while it is reasonable in size, a blanket is probably enough.  When it is mature, you better get a bucket truck though

[Sandy Loam]

Red Rabbit suggested Ravenea Rivularis.  I have two of those and, personally, I do not recommend them.  Although they may be quite bud-hardy when spring rolls around, if you get any cold snaps in winter, they looks AWFUL.  Last winter was fine, but I recall other winters where I had to keep the fronds clipped bald all winter (which defeats the purpose of having the tree there).  They also take longer to come back in the spring.  I seem to recall it taking almost until summer for them to fill out and look beautiful again after having been clipped bald.

 

I also find that my Ravenea Rivularis grow slowly.  They are still stout with no trunk.  There is no comparison when I have a Bungalow Palm right beside it which is towering overhead at twice my body height...with a trunk.  They might be the same age too.

And don't expect a Kentopsis Oliviformis to beat the Bungalow Palm (king palm) in speed either.  There is no comparison.  It will be faster than a Ravenea Rivularis, but slow when compared to a Bungalow/Cunningham palm.

Sorry that you ended up with a royal palm, although it might do fine in your region after all.  Please keep us posted.  I have never planted one here because I have always understood that northern Florida was too borderline for them.  If you are near the coast, maybe they will thrive for you.

You mentioned that it is hard to find any out-of-ordinary palms in St. Augustine.  I always pick up unusual palms in Miami or Homestead.  If I just happen to be down there anyway, palms are cheap there and rare finds are not unusual. You can find just about anything down there if you do your homework in advance.  

 

What is a bucket truck, by the way?  I have decided not to protect anything in winter.  If there is overhead canopy in a particular spot, that is the only protection. 

[jreich85]

On 10/24/2017, 8:29:13, Insomniac411 said:

I thought I got such a good deal. I need to get out of my bubble. Last year I bought a 45 gal B.Alfredii locally for $275 i hear in Orlando they have them for $200.  Time and gas, it'll probably cost me $300 or more making that drive. 

Where in Orlando did ypu get your B. Alfredii? Ive been wanting a decent sized one for some time, but they take a long time to grow from seed. Also, for comparison, there are numerous Royal Palms northeast of Orlando along I-4 just south of the St. John's River bridge. That also has to give hope.

[Insomniac411]

20 hours ago, jreich85 said:

Where in Orlando did ypu get your B. Alfredii? Ive been wanting a decent sized one for some time, but they take a long time to grow from seed. Also, for comparison, there are numerous Royal Palms northeast of Orlando along I-4 just south of the St. John's River bridge. That also has to give hope.

I bought mine from a place here near st. Augustine, but I spoke with Mike from MB palms in Orlando and he quoted me a 45gal alfreddii for $225. https://www.plantant.com/nursery-availability/1005451/mb-palms

[Beach palm]

I have about 100 species of palms growing in southern st. Augustine beach. I have quite a few that you would consider “exotics” for the area. Most of them were purchased in South Florida while some were mail ordered. From my experience the wind is more of a problem than our typical low temperatures. A temperature of 31 with 30 mph winds is far worse than 28 without any winds. I also try to avoid the “exotics” as you call them, which to me for this area are 9A or 10B palms, that grow tall. If the palm grows too tall it gets up into the wind. I use the more cold hardy species like butia and sabal as wind breaks. I also use clumping bamboo as wind breaks. Palms like to have neighbors of plants around them as it helps to hold in the moisture and warmth. B. Alfredii is a good palm for our area. My two largest ones are probably 10’ overall height. Brahea’s do well although some are slow. Coccothrinax crinita does good. Understory palms like chamaedorea do well since they grow in protected areas. I continue to try different species. I am branching into different ravenea. I already have glauca and hillbrandtii. I am also going to try additional syagrus and a hapala. I wouldn’t try a kentiopsis because it will grow too tall.