The Bald Head Island Most Northern Palm Myth

[Anthony_B]

Hello, all.  This is my first post on this forum, but it seems the perfect place to post this type of information.  I have been vacationing with my now fiance and her family in North Carolina for many years now.  We fell in love with the coastal areas of the state and decided why wait to enjoy life?  After a full year of searching and pulling strings, we will both be relocating there together in October, specifically Brunswick County.

The list of reasons why I am relocating are long.  Most notably are the mild climate that still has all four seasons, beautiful landscapes and amazing beaches.  Before I began traveling there regularly I wasn't a big palm nut, but over the years I have developed an obsession.  I find it fascinating that Brunswick County, NC, is the most northern known border of true trunking palms in the nation, and NC in general is the most northern state with native palms at our current point in history.  My last trip there, I decided to venture out to Bald Head Island and see what is believed to be the most northern palms in existence in this country.  Below is a picture I shot of the sabal palmetto in its native habitat.

 

 

Then I began thinking: there is so much unexplored land out there.  There could be more palms located out there somewhere.  I am aware of the legend that cabbage palmetto once grew on Hatteras Island and have since been extirpated - I have no doubt that if humans never settled the area the palms would be reaching further north today.  Let's not forget, millions of years ago both Antarctica and the Arctic were covered in palms - despite what we hear today, palms have been receding overall for millions of the years and the Earth is a much colder place than it was just a few million years ago.  But what about right now?  Right this second?

 

I have scoured satellite imagery, and while the resolution certainly isn't strong enough to find every palm, you can pretty clearly locate them on occasion if you know where to look.  Sabal palmetto are very distinct.  Below is one of the most northern palms you'll find on Bald Head Island (visible by satellite) at coordinates (33.873138, -78.000984).  I am aware that there are smaller cabbage palmetto underneath canopies and this may not be the true most northern palm on the island, but it'll give you a close approximation of the latitude.

 

In reality, there are more northern sabal palmettos growing on Bluff Island (33.865512, -77.967944),

 

on Middle Island (33.871167, -77.985054),

 

and on Smith Island (33.882495, -77.980757).

 

Some of you may think that's a cop-out and consider that entire array of islands part of the Bald Head Island system.  Fair enough.  Recently, I was touring Southport with my family.  My father was standing on the dock at Southport Waterfront Park.  The dock looks straight ahead at Battery Island.  He worked construction all his life and to this day doesn't wear glasses.  Somehow, he spotted a lone palmetto growing on Battery Island out in front of us with the naked eye.  I don't know how he noticed it, but I verified with the zoom on my camera - it is, in fact, a very old, fully grown palmetto growing on the scrubby little nothing-island.  I wish I took a picture, but trust me - it is there.  I believe I located it on satellite imagery (33.911391, -78.009687).

This hard-to-find palm would hold the title...if it weren't for a cluster of old palmetto trees I am surprised no one has noticed til today.  On Oak Island, there exists a patch of undeveloped woods (on an island that has otherwise been cut down to a densely populated beach community).  In this cluster of woods, very old palmetto grow.  They can be seen plain as day here at (33.914670, -78.205078):

 

If you bring up Google Street View, you can see them with your very own eyes.

 

I believe these sabal palmetto trees are, in fact, the true most northern trunking palm trees in the country.  It is a shame we humans have done so much damage, because it is clear that if we never came along, all of Oak Island would be littered with the beautiful tree.

 

Once I get down there permanently, I intend to do exploring to see what I can find.  Maybe more northern clusters exist?  There are plenty of untouched islands along waterways that may harbor secrets.  This untouched island easily accessible by kayak looks interesting to explore off of Holden Beach.

 

I would love to find a palm at 34 degrees N latitude.  I haven't given up hope - it may exist.

 

 

 

[cfkingfish]

Welcome to the forums! You will enjoy it here, and your work in finding these northerly Palmettos is truly extensive. I had the same passion when I got into palms some 25 years ago, but there were no Google Maps then! When I get bored, sometimes I will check out Google Photos of certain cities that lie on the borderline for regular palm growing (Istanbul, Central Argentina, Southern Europe) and see what I can find there. The addiction only gets worse from here.

 

[Xenon]

Wow, I'm impressed. I've scoured pretty much every street in S. Texas looking for the handful of coconuts in the state. I get really excited when Street View gets an update haha

Cheers 

[Mike in Nelson]

At 34N latitude there should be plenty in coastal areas?

[palmfriend]

Anthony,

even if I will probably never put a footstep in your area - it was a very interesting report!

My place is pretty close to the most northern tip of the eastern Pacific where cocos nucifera

can grow naturally - so I think I can really empathize your great piece of work!

I am always excited when I can find a naturally grown c.nucifera and I am always tempted

to take at least a photo (or even try to get one of its fruits )

So, thank you very much and I am looking forward the next updates -

all the best to you and your family ...and: Welcome to palmtalk! -

Lars

 

[Anthony_B]

2 hours ago, Mike in Nelson said:

At 34N latitude there should be plenty in coastal areas?

Planted, yes, definitely.  I am looking for native palms growing in their natural environment.  The furthest I have been able to find is at 33.9N latitude.  Rumor has it Hatteras used to have them but humans cut them all down for food a century ago and the species is now extinct on Hatteras.

 

No one has discovered a palm in the US at 34N or further growing in its natural habitat to my knowledge on the east coast, aside from the Sabal Minor.  For true trunking palms, Bald Head Island has always been believed to be the northern limit, but in reality is actually Oak Island.  Not sure how that has been missed!

Edited August 4, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Dave-Vero]

Elbert Littlle's "Atlas of United States Trees, Vol. 1" from 1971 shows a dot west of Bald Head Island, so I bet there's a herbarium specimen at UNC-CH or NCSU (Little did do a lot of field work himself and a lot of his collections ended up at the University of Wyoming in Laramie).   The Sabals on West Beach Drive are almost certainly wild, not from seeds from cultivated plants.  

The Buxton Sabal palmettos are from  an 1860 comment by Moses Ashley Curtis, who had lived in Wilmington for a time and who traveled extensively.  His information seems second-hand, but probably reliable.  He was a conscientious scientist.  I posted on that a while back.  

[Xerarch]

19 hours ago, Xenon said:

Wow, I'm impressed. I've scoured pretty much every street in S. Texas looking for the handful of coconuts in the state. I get really excited when Street View gets an update haha

Cheers 

Seriously, street view needs some major updates, I keep hoping for a newer street view photo of that coconut on Red Snapper on SPI that looks so terrible but alive because the photo is from 2011!

[RedRabbit]

Welcome aboard! That's one heck of a first post, wish I could give you 10 rep for that post alone. 

I can see the appeal of moving there, but I'm curious how it will affect your career. Can you work remotely or will you be trying to get a job locally?

[Dave-Vero]

Here's the map.  Reference is Little, Elbert L. Jr. 1971.  Atlas of United States Trees:  Vol. 1, Conifers and Important Hardwoods.  Miscellaneous Publication No. 1146, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Forest Service, March 1971.  U.S. Govt. Printing Office, Washington, D.C.  Map 188-E.  It's among the "hardwoods."  

 

[Anthony_B]

17 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Seriously, street view needs some major updates, I keep hoping for a newer street view photo of that coconut on Red Snapper on SPI that looks so terrible but alive because the photo is from 2011!

I just went to this road to try and locate the tree you're referencing.  Dear God.  This is the saddest looking coconut palm I've ever seen.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Anthony_B]

12 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Welcome aboard! That's one heck of a first post, wish I could give you 10 rep for that post alone. 

I can see the appeal of moving there, but I'm curious how it will affect your career. Can you work remotely or will you be trying to get a job locally?

My company is a fairly large engineering firm that has offices in most states throughout the country, as well as Canada and the Middle East.  I work in a niche department - I am an ITS Engineer.  ITS stands for Intelligent Transportation Systems.  Because it is so expensive to build new or widen existing highways and interstates, state DOT's are constantly looking for ways to make their highways work more efficiently.  We design systems that make use of Bluetooth readers, microwave detectors, piezo's, loops and other means of vehicle detection to essentially track the volume density of traffic.  If you've ever seen message signs on the sides of highways that say "Exit 60 to Exit 70 - 10 miles, 9 minutes," those are the systems we design.  We design systems that collect travel time data and bring it back to traffic operations centers for DOT's, Cities and localities so they can monitor traffic and collect the data.  These systems usually come with CCTV cameras all over the place.  If you've ever geeked out with live traffic camera websites, we design the networks and tell contractors where to put the cameras, basically.

 

DOT's are flocking to install systems like these nationwide. They're still pretty uncommon, so it is a huge untapped market and growing quickly.  We have a pretty big roadway office in Raleigh, NC, but to date we just got our first ever ITS contract in North Carolina and do absolutely no work in South Carolina and Georgia (ironically, Florida is our biggest market).  Because of the huge growth rate in the Carolina's, I am strategically moving to the NC/SC border to develop business in the region because they have seen such a gigantic influx of people the infrastructure will need to catch up.  Example: Myrtle Beach will likely get its own interstate pretty soon.  There is talk to develop a massive spur that connects I-95 directly to Myrtle Beach.  It'll be I-73.  If you think growth is explosive there now, wait til they have an Interstate.  I am placing myself in the Charleston-to-Wilmington corridor for a darn good reason - business AND pleasure.  I will be predominantly working from home and travel pretty often.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Anthony_B]

12 hours ago, Dave-Vero said:

Here's the map.  Reference is Little, Elbert L. Jr. 1971.  Atlas of United States Trees:  Vol. 1, Conifers and Important Hardwoods.  Miscellaneous Publication No. 1146, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Forest Service, March 1971.  U.S. Govt. Printing Office, Washington, D.C.  Map 188-E.  It's among the "hardwoods."  

 

 

I have seen a lot of sabal palmetto distribution.  This one appears to be the most accurate.  I have been unsuccessful in locating native cabbage palms south of Bald Head Island to Myrtle Beach.  Strictly from satellite imagery, I can't find any until you are just south of Pawley's Island at North Island Lighthouse.  I would bet they were there at some point, but have been extirpated by human activity.  The whole Grand Strand is so developed they've probably been wiped out, which is a tragedy.  I bet that map in 1871 would've looked quite different.

 

That map puts a pretty big bullseye around Oak Island.  I bet that whole island was a palmetto swamp before it was turned into beach homes.

[Xerarch]

1 hour ago, Anthony_B said:

I just went to this road to try and locate the tree you're referencing.  Dear God.  This is the saddest looking coconut palm I've ever seen.

Believe it or not, this palm actually looks way better now, respectable even. This street view picture was taken after a particularly harsh winter, which is why I'm anxious to wipe the slate clean with some fresh street view pics. 

 

As as for the topic at hand (I don't mean to derail the thread) the North Carolina pics are great, I have used google earth to identify native Sabals around there as well. I like those tall specimens in the pics, nice hefty trunks, clearly a different look than their siblings in Florida of the same species. 

[Dave-Vero]

Florida is impressive for big message-board signs explaining conditions ahead.  

Google Earth has been a fabulous resource for figuring out what's where.  I do miss looking at stereo pairs of photos in areas with actual terrain.  

On the coconut side of things, here in Vero Beach, many died from the cold of 2010-2011 and spiraling whitefly also took a toll.  It took two or three years for the survivors to return to looking good.   Right now, the town's palms are fat and happy.  

[Anthony_B]

1 hour ago, Dave-Vero said:

Florida is impressive for big message-board signs explaining conditions ahead.  

Google Earth has been a fabulous resource for figuring out what's where.  I do miss looking at stereo pairs of photos in areas with actual terrain.  

On the coconut side of things, here in Vero Beach, many died from the cold of 2010-2011 and spiraling whitefly also took a toll.  It took two or three years for the survivors to return to looking good.   Right now, the town's palms are fat and happy.  

People forget just how far north the United States is from the Equator.  Even northern Florida is 40% of the way to the Arctic.  Where I am in Pennsylvania - a Zone 7a, the warmest pocket of the state - we are basically 2/3 of the way to the Arctic Circle.  I think people are so used to looking at maps oriented where the US is at the center they don't have a grasp of a true Equatorial view of the Earth.

Factor in the way the Rockies are oriented, which forces the West->East jet stream to divert around them up into Canada, then back down into the Mid-Atlantic and this is why we can't have nice things at 34 degrees N latitude here while London can sit all the way at 51 degrees N latitude and have beautiful Canary Island Date Palms flourish.  It just isn't fair.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Anthony_B

[RedRabbit]

8 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

My company is a fairly large engineering firm that has offices in most states throughout the country, as well as Canada and the Middle East.  I work in a niche department - I am an ITS Engineer.  ITS stands for Intelligent Transportation Systems.  Because it is so expensive to build new or widen existing highways and interstates, state DOT's are constantly looking for ways to make their highways work more efficiently.  We design systems that make use of Bluetooth readers, microwave detectors, piezo's, loops and other means of vehicle detection to essentially track the volume density of traffic.  If you've ever seen message signs on the sides of highways that say "Exit 60 to Exit 70 - 10 miles, 9 minutes," those are the systems we design.  We design systems that collect travel time data and bring it back to traffic operations centers for DOT's, Cities and localities so they can monitor traffic and collect the data.  These systems usually come with CCTV cameras all over the place.  If you've ever geeked out with live traffic camera websites, we design the networks and tell contractors where to put the cameras, basically.

 

DOT's are flocking to install systems like these nationwide. They're still pretty uncommon, so it is a huge untapped market and growing quickly.  We have a pretty big roadway office in Raleigh, NC, but to date we just got our first ever ITS contract in North Carolina and do absolutely no work in South Carolina and Georgia (ironically, Florida is our biggest market).  Because of the huge growth rate in the Carolina's, I am strategically moving to the NC/SC border to develop business in the region because they have seen such a gigantic influx of people the infrastructure will need to catch up.  Example: Myrtle Beach will likely get its own interstate pretty soon.  There is talk to develop a massive spur that connects I-95 directly to Myrtle Beach.  It'll be I-73.  If you think growth is explosive there now, wait til they have an Interstate.  I am placing myself in the Charleston-to-Wilmington corridor for a darn good reason - business AND pleasure.  I will be predominantly working from home and travel pretty often.

Wha a fascinating line of work, it sounds like you've got a good thing going. 

[Walt]

I've been using Google maps street view to locate palms in my county for photographing. But prior to Google Map's introduction to street view I was using the highest magnification of aerial view just doing general searches. One day I was browsing around I noticed various palm crown shadows on the ground. To me they looked like royal palms. I could swear to it. When street view was introduced I used it to confirm if the crown shadows I saw years earlier were in fact royal palms. They were! I then drove out to the locations to photo the palms.

As far as the northern most Sabal palmettos (possibly north of Bald Head Island) I have no clue. I can say that I first visited the Outer Banks of North Carolina in the summer of 1963. I know I saw Sabal palmettos on Ocracoke Island. Of course, I'm all but sure they were introduced there. But, in any event, I think it's quite possible Sabal palmetto once extended north of Bald Head Island, as the USDA Hardiness map shows the Outer Banks to be warmer than the Bald Head Island area.

The fact that the Outer Banks is buffered to the west by 20+ mile wide Pamlico Sound, an is positioned farther out into the Atlantic Ocean, it enjoys the wintertime thermal effect of the water, making it a 1/2 USDA Hardiness Zone warmer. One can confirm this temperature difference by consulting Weather Underground buoy thermometers and private weather stations on the Banks.

I was in the navy, stationed in Norfolk, Va. (naval base) during the '67-'68 time period. On some weekends me and buddies would drive down to the Outer Banks and set up tents in various camp grounds. One life guard there told me that on occasion the Gulf Stream would veer farther west and come closer to the Outer Banks. He said this shift could raise sea water temperatures 20 degrees. I believed it as I had been in the water one day when it was colder and less clear. On other days the clarity and color of the water was far greater and much warmer. Of course, we all know it is the Gulf Stream that gives the island of Bermuda (at just over 32 degrees north latitude) a USDA zone 11 climate.

[Anthony_B]

40 minutes ago, Walt said:

I've been using Google maps street view to locate palms in my county for photographing. But prior to Google Map's introduction to street view I was using the highest magnification of aerial view just doing general searches. One day I was browsing around I noticed various palm crown shadows on the ground. To me they looked like royal palms. I could swear to it. When street view was introduced I used it to confirm if the crown shadows I saw years earlier were in fact royal palms. They were! I then drove out to the locations to photo the palms.

As far as the northern most Sabal palmettos (possibly north of Bald Head Island) I have no clue. I can say that I first visited the Outer Banks of North Carolina in the summer of 1963. I know I saw Sabal palmettos on Ocracoke Island. Of course, I'm all but sure they were introduced there. But, in any event, I think it's quite possible Sabal palmetto once extended north of Bald Head Island, as the USDA Hardiness map shows the Outer Banks to be warmer than the Bald Head Island area.

The fact that the Outer Banks is buffered to the west by 20+ mile wide Pamlico Sound, an is positioned farther out into the Atlantic Ocean, it enjoys the wintertime thermal effect of the water, making it a 1/2 USDA Hardiness Zone warmer. One can confirm this temperature difference by consulting Weather Underground buoy thermometers and private weather stations on the Banks.

I was in the navy, stationed in Norfolk, Va. (naval base) during the '67-'68 time period. On some weekends me and buddies would drive down to the Outer Banks and set up tents in various camp grounds. One life guard there told me that on occasion the Gulf Stream would veer farther west and come closer to the Outer Banks. He said this shift could raise sea water temperatures 20 degrees. I believed it as I had been in the water one day when it was colder and less clear. On other days the clarity and color of the water was far greater and much warmer. Of course, we all know it is the Gulf Stream that gives the island of Bermuda (at just over 32 degrees north latitude) a USDA zone 11 climate.

The palms you see in the Outer Banks are landscaping.  The only place along the OBX recorded to my knowledge ever having native cabbage palmetto is the Buxton/Hatteras Island area.

The USA Hardiness Zone map is misleading because they only attest to the absolute minimum temperature in a given timespan.  They have no relevance to average temperatures.  While it is technically true that the Wilmington area of NC typically experiences lower absolute minimums than, say, Kill Devil Hills, NC, absolute minimums aren't the only thing that influence the growth of sabal palmettos.

The further north you get along the Outer Banks, the less you see palm trees.  Once you head north of Hatteras, they pretty much disappear.  Kill Devil Kills is technically an 8b where Wilmington is an 8a, but you'll find palms all over Wilmington and virtually none in Kill Devil Hills.  My theory is because it just doesn't get as hot on average, and sabal palmettos need lots of heat.  While the nights in the middle of January don't get quite as cold along the Palmlico Sound, the days don't get nearly as warm, and I think that is what palmetto really needs.  The highs in southern NC are much warmer than the highs in middle-to-northern NC in the winter on average, usually by about 5 degrees or so.  And that is what I think the palms really need.

You'll start to see sabal palmetto around Emerald Island planted as landscaping.  Compare them to the trees you see at Wrightsville Beach, Carolina Beach or other points south.  They don't look as good by comparison because they don't get the warmer temps in the daytime - that's my theory.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Dave-Vero]

I was at Cape Hatteras on Feb 25 this year.  Water was so warm that two or three surfers were doing without wetsuits.  Up at Kill Devil Hills the water was about 50º.  

[pin38]

19 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

People forget just how far north the United States is from the Equator.  Even northern Florida is 40% of the way to the Arctic.  Where I am in Pennsylvania - a Zone 7a, the warmest pocket of the state - we are basically 2/3 of the way to the Arctic Circle.  I think people are so used to looking at maps oriented where the US is at the center they don't have a grasp of a true Equatorial view of the Earth.

Factor in the way the Rockies are oriented, which forces the West->East jet stream to divert around them up into Canada, then back down into the Mid-Atlantic and this is why we can't have nice things at 34 degrees N latitude here while London can sit all the way at 51 degrees N latitude and have beautiful Canary Island Date Palms flourish.  It just isn't fair.

It's funny because as far north as the lower 48 are, Europe is even farther north. People don't realize many Mediterranean cities in Europe are at similar latitude to Great Lakes cities in North America. I think all the nuances with geography and their interplay with climate is part of what makes this hobby so fascinating, to me at least.

[Walt]

14 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

The palms you see in the Outer Banks are landscaping.  The only place along the OBX recorded to my knowledge ever having native cabbage palmetto is the Buxton/Hatteras Island area.

The USA Hardiness Zone map is misleading because they only attest to the absolute minimum temperature in a given timespan.  They have no relevance to average temperatures.  While it is technically true that the Wilmington area of NC typically experiences lower absolute minimums than, say, Kill Devil Hills, NC, absolute minimums aren't the only thing that influence the growth of sabal palmettos.

The further north you get along the Outer Banks, the less you see palm trees.  Once you head north of Hatteras, they pretty much disappear.  Kill Devil Kills is technically an 8b where Wilmington is an 8a, but you'll find palms all over Wilmington and virtually none in Kill Devil Hills.  My theory is because it just doesn't get as hot on average, and sabal palmettos need lots of heat.  While the nights in the middle of January don't get quite as cold along the Palmlico Sound, the days don't get nearly as warm, and I think that is what palmetto really needs.  The highs in southern NC are much warmer than the highs in middle-to-northern NC in the winter on average, usually by about 5 degrees or so.  And that is what I think the palms really need.

You'll start to see sabal palmetto around Emerald Island planted as landscaping.  Compare them to the trees you see at Wrightsville Beach, Carolina Beach or other points south.  They don't look as good by comparison because they don't get the warmer temps in the daytime - that's my theory.

I have no problem at all with your theory, and I was only surmising that maybe once upon a time the northernmost limit for Sabal palmetto could have been farther north into the Outer Banks.

As a palm growing hobbyist, I fully realize that absolute low temperature is only one critical criterion with respect to a given species of palm ability to live and reproduce -- that other criteria also dictate the minimal requirements for a given species to survive.

While a Sabal palmetto is considered a cold hardy palm, one probably could not survive in a climate than never dropped below 50 degrees nor rose above 60 degrees (zone 12). There just wouldn't be enough average heat (your point/theory as to the northernmost limitation). That's why, so I have read, that Sabal palmetto,, Serenoa repens, and R. hystrix (needle palm) don't do well (or even survive) in the coastal areas of the Pacific Northwest, where absolute lows are higher than much of the Sabal palmetto's S.E. range. It's the absence of summertime heat -- compared to that in the southeast US. The same reason/princlple coconut palms basically won't survive in zone 11 areas of southern California (not enough wintertime heat, compounded by rainy season during the cool winter months, i.e. wet, cold soil). 

According to the links below, Wilmington does indeed have slightly higher winter daytime temperatures than Cape Hatteras, and slightly lower nighttime temperatures. Further, Cape Hatteras has more heating degree days during the winter months than Wilmington -- so Wilmington, on balance, has more overall heat.

I under stand the physics and heating capacity of large water bodies and the thermal inertia of same. Going into winter the Outer Banks enjoy higher nighttime temperatures as the water is still relatively warm, taking weeks to months to finally cool down to their lowest wintertime lows. Then, that same advantage is offset oppositely  during the late winter months and early spring, when the relatively colder water keeps down daily air temperature highs.

I experienced this first hand. I used to have relatives who lived in Reedville, Virginia, with water front property on the Chesapeake Bay. Sometimes they wouldn't get their first frost until December due the thermal effect of the water. But the bay water would finally cool down, and it held back spring warm up of the ambient air (on their property). You could actually stand near the shore and feel the heat being drawn from your body towards the colder water.

http://www.sercc.com/cgi-bin/sercc/cliMAIN.pl?nc1458

http://www.sercc.com/cgi-bin/sercc/cliMAIN.pl?nc9457

[Anthony_B]

29 minutes ago, Walt said:

I have no problem at all with your theory, and I was only surmising that maybe once upon a time the northernmost limit for Sabal palmetto could have been farther north into the Outer Banks.

As a palm growing hobbyist, I fully realize that absolute low temperature is only one critical criterion with respect to a given species of palm ability to live and reproduce -- that other criteria also dictate the minimal requirements for a given species to survive.

While a Sabal palmetto is considered a cold hardy palm, one probably could not survive in a climate than never dropped below 50 degrees nor rose above 60 degrees (zone 12). There just wouldn't be enough average heat (your point/theory as to the northernmost limitation). That's why, so I have read, that Sabal palmetto,, Serenoa repens, and R. hystrix (needle palm) don't do well (or even survive) in the coastal areas of the Pacific Northwest, where absolute lows are higher than much of the Sabal palmetto's S.E. range. It's the absence of summertime heat -- compared to that in the southeast US. The same reason/princlple coconut palms basically won't survive in zone 11 areas of southern California (not enough wintertime heat, compounded by rainy season during the cool winter months, i.e. wet, cold soil). 

According to the links below, Wilmington does indeed have slightly higher winter daytime temperatures than Cape Hatteras, and slightly lower nighttime temperatures. Further, Cape Hatteras has more heating degree days during the winter months than Wilmington -- so Wilmington, on balance, has more overall heat.

I under stand the physics and heating capacity of large water bodies and the thermal inertia of same. Going into winter the Outer Banks enjoy higher nighttime temperatures as the water is still relatively warm, taking weeks to months to finally cool down to their lowest wintertime lows. Then, that same advantage is offset oppositely  during the late winter months and early spring, when the relatively colder water keeps down daily air temperature highs.

I experienced this first hand. I used to have relatives who lived in Reedville, Virginia, with water front property on the Chesapeake Bay. Sometimes they wouldn't get their first frost until December due the thermal effect of the water. But the bay water would finally cool down, and it held back spring warm up of the ambient air (on their property). You could actually stand near the shore and feel the heat being drawn from your body towards the colder water.

http://www.sercc.com/cgi-bin/sercc/cliMAIN.pl?nc1458

http://www.sercc.com/cgi-bin/sercc/cliMAIN.pl?nc9457

You know what's funny?  Georgia has been having trouble growing peaches the past couple winters.  The winters have been too warm there.  It turns out peaches need cold winters in order to fruit in the summers.  If they don't see low enough temperatures, they will be infertile, glorified bushes come summertime.

 

Bald Head Island hit zero degrees back on January 21, 1985.  It set all kinds of records across the state.  Hatteras hit 6 - comfortably warmer than the Wilmington area.  It certainly didn't kill the native palmetto on BHI.  It's like a jungle there today.

http://climate.ncsu.edu/climateblog?id=118

 

I think Sabal Palmetto do poorly on the west coast for the same reason as coconut palms.  They have the lows, but they need to be blasted by heat and humidity.  You're 100% correct, I'm sure.  Mother Nature is a strange mistress.

[Walt]

Yes, most stone fruits need "X" amount of chilling hours to bear fruit. I'm originally from Maryland (grew peaches, apricots, apples, pears, plums) and moved to south central Florida 20 years ago; can't grow that stuff down here other than some cultivars that were developed that require far less chilling hours (hours below 45 degree F). But, what I was going to say was that last winter was the warmest winter I've experienced in my 20 years here. Frankly, and I haven't checked, but I think we had a record breaking warm winter down here. Yet, December of 2010 set all-time low average temperature records for both Florida and Georgia.

I have an old navy buddy that I'm still in contact with (just spoke to him today via email) who lives in Wilmington, N.C.. My nephew just recently bought a home in Wilmington. I've been to Wilmington, and no doubt there are far more Sabal palmetto palms to be found without looking for them than one will find on the Outer Banks. Spotted lots of nice Butia capitata palms in Wilmington, too.

[Desert DAC]

On 8/4/2017, 7:10:19, Anthony_B said:

Planted, yes, definitely.  I am looking for native palms growing in their natural environment.  The furthest I have been able to find is at 33.9N latitude.  Rumor has it Hatteras used to have them but humans cut them all down for food a century ago and the species is now extinct on Hatteras.

 

No one has discovered a palm in the US at 34N or further growing in its natural habitat to my knowledge on the east coast, aside from the Sabal Minor.  For true trunking palms, Bald Head Island has always been believed to be the northern limit, but in reality is actually Oak Island.  Not sure how that has been missed!

Your info is excellent, esp your use of that wonderful tool, Google. Another reason to visit NC / SC, since I've never been!

As to N-most native palms in their natural environment, I have to vote for the Washingtonia filifera groves near Moapa, Nevada...latitude 36 deg - 34 min N, 1611 ft elevation. I visited several years ago (pics somewhere):

Not all believe those Moapa palms are native. As a landscape architect, I've met vocal folks in the Desert SW who truly *loathe* palms. I don't get it, but some in the government are that way, too. There's a move to eradicate those Moapa palms and replace with cottonwoods by that park's jurisdiction. 

As a climate / plant geography nerd and considering that area's terrain and certain vegetation, the Moapa valley is low enough to possibly be a northern extension of a Sonoran Desert climate, as well as Lake Mead, Laughlin, Bullhead City, and the lower parts of Death Valley. But there are no climate records there, just Laughlin and day-to-day inferences for the others. There are a number of native Washingtonia filifera stands in fault areas with springs in So Cal and AZ desert areas (most or all Sonoran Desert), and I think the Moapa valley may have a fault. But it's higher Mojave Desert in Las Vegas and Mesquite NV.

Native peoples may have planted those Moapa palms, given their trading with Cahuilla people near Palm Springs. If so, are there records of that and how far back in time counts as "native" or not?

Edited August 27, 2017 by Desert DAC
clarity

[Anthony_B]

1 hour ago, Desert DAC said:

Not all believe those Moapa palms are native. As a landscape architect, I've met vocal folks in the Desert SW who truly *loathe* palms. I don't get it, but some in the government are that way, too. There's a move to eradicate those Moapa palms and replace with cottonwoods by that park's jurisdiction.

I've come across this many times.  I can't explain why people get obsessively stuck on things.  It reminds me of this thread I once read:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/texas-should-ban-palm-trees.2144080/

I hate palm trees in Texas. They look so out of place.
Oak tree. Oak tree. Oak tree. Oak Tree. Palm Tree. Oak tree. Oak tree.
Just looks stupid.

They're slightly more tolerable in southern California, but I still hate them.

 

This is a common theme.  I have seen multiple instances where people curse palm trees left and right, saying they only belong in Florida and California.  Always California - everyone seems to love palms in California.

 

I want to say, "You idiot.  There are at least two strands of palm native to Texas - the sabal minor and sabal mexicana.  Minor grows all over the place, and sabal mexicana was much more common before human extirpation along the coast.  Meanwhile, California only has ONE native palm - the washingtonia filifera - and it is very rare in its native habitat.  It only grows along rivers and desert oases.  Just like everything in California, it's a phony perception.  There are no palms in Las Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, etc.  All products of human intervention."

 

You can write entire libraries on what people don't know.  Palms are much more at home in the Carolinas than in California.  Imagine people's surprise if they actually knew.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Desert DAC]

18 minutes ago, Anthony_B said:

I've come across this many times.  I can't explain why people get obsessively stuck on things.  It reminds me of this thread I once read:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/texas-should-ban-palm-trees.2144080/

I hate palm trees in Texas. They look so out of place.
Oak tree. Oak tree. Oak tree. Oak Tree. Palm Tree. Oak tree. Oak tree.
Just looks stupid.

They're slightly more tolerable in southern California, but I still hate them.

 

This is a common theme.  I have seen multiple instances where people curse palm trees left and right, saying they only belong in Florida and California.  Always California - everyone seems to love palms in California.

 

I want to say, "You idiot.  There are at least two strands of palm native to Texas - the sabal minor and sabal mexicana.  Minor grows all over the place, and sabal mexicana was much more common before human extirpation along the coast.  Meanwhile, California only has ONE native palm - the washingtonia filifera - and it is very rare in its native habitat.  It only grows along rivers and desert oases.  Just like everything in California, it's a phony perception.  There are no palms in Las Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, etc.  All products of human intervention."

 

You can write entire libraries on what people don't know.  Palms are much more at home in the Carolinas than in California.  Imagine people's surprise if they actually knew.

Very true on people's hostility - some in your link are nasty. "Use lots of water"...depends, but most palms used in the SW do not, though regular irrigation helps. 

LA's former mayor (Villaraigosa?) wanted to replace most city palms with native oaks after they die - extreme. California oaks should be used much more there, but palms create unique effects when used well, which oaks and spreading trees don't. They're a valuable tool as our Doña Ana County ag. agent says. I think of some residential streets in So. Pasadena with W. robusta underplanted with flowering Jacaranda! 

Ah, you've read up on the Texas coastal palms...a very interesting topic indeed.

Side note: a botanist I know in Tucson has visited the Kofa Mtns in AZ, and he claims many palms there aren't W. filifera but W. robusta...fronds, boots, etc. Nothing on that online, though. But I can see their connection to Baja, too.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Desert DAC

[Anthony_B]

17 minutes ago, Desert DAC said:

Very true! I do remember LA's former mayor (Villaraigosa?) wanting to replace most palms once they die with native oaks. California oaks are fine and should be used more there, but there are places the palms do something unusual when used well, which oaks and spreading trees cannot. I think of some residential streets in So. Pasadena with W. robusta underplanted with flowering Jacaranda...stunning!

Ah, you've read up on the Texas coastal palms...a very interesting topic indeed.

I very much want to see this someday.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sabal+Palm+Sanctuary/@25.8521458,-97.4182893,294m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x517e68a3d3f0112e!8m2!3d25.8523258!4d-97.4177959

 

I just need to find other things to do around Brownsville to justify a trip...

[Dave-Vero]

Sabal Palm Sanctuary looks worth a visit for birds as much as for plants.  I hope it doesn't disappear behind a wall.  

[Desert DAC]

On 8/27/2017, 6:55:32, Anthony_B said:

I very much want to see this someday.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sabal+Palm+Sanctuary/@25.8521458,-97.4182893,294m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x517e68a3d3f0112e!8m2!3d25.8523258!4d-97.4177959

I just need to find other things to do around Brownsville to justify a trip...

That palm sanctuary would be good, plus there's the world birding center and the beach both not too far away. No beach here, only sand. Also, I would enjoy the change in vegetation and ecoregion from here to the Lower Valley area.

[PalmTreeDude]

On 8/27/2017, 8:55:32, Anthony_B said:

I very much want to see this someday.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sabal+Palm+Sanctuary/@25.8521458,-97.4182893,294m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x517e68a3d3f0112e!8m2!3d25.8523258!4d-97.4177959

 

I just need to find other things to do around Brownsville to justify a trip...

It looks so cool! 

 

On 8/3/2017, 11:04:55, Anthony_B said:

Hello, all.  This is my first post on this forum, but it seems the perfect place to post this type of information.  I have been vacationing with my now fiance and her family in North Carolina for many years now.  We fell in love with the coastal areas of the state and decided why wait to enjoy life?  After a full year of searching and pulling strings, we will both be relocating there together in October, specifically Brunswick County.

The list of reasons why I am relocating are long.  Most notably are the mild climate that still has all four seasons, beautiful landscapes and amazing beaches.  Before I began traveling there regularly I wasn't a big palm nut, but over the years I have developed an obsession.  I find it fascinating that Brunswick County, NC, is the most northern known border of true trunking palms in the nation, and NC in general is the most northern state with native palms at our current point in history.  My last trip there, I decided to venture out to Bald Head Island and see what is believed to be the most northern palms in existence in this country.  Below is a picture I shot of the sabal palmetto in its native habitat.

 

 

Then I began thinking: there is so much unexplored land out there.  There could be more palms located out there somewhere.  I am aware of the legend that cabbage palmetto once grew on Hatteras Island and have since been extirpated - I have no doubt that if humans never settled the area the palms would be reaching further north today.  Let's not forget, millions of years ago both Antarctica and the Arctic were covered in palms - despite what we hear today, palms have been receding overall for millions of the years and the Earth is a much colder place than it was just a few million years ago.  But what about right now?  Right this second?

 

I have scoured satellite imagery, and while the resolution certainly isn't strong enough to find every palm, you can pretty clearly locate them on occasion if you know where to look.  Sabal palmetto are very distinct.  Below is one of the most northern palms you'll find on Bald Head Island (visible by satellite) at coordinates (33.873138, -78.000984).  I am aware that there are smaller cabbage palmetto underneath canopies and this may not be the true most northern palm on the island, but it'll give you a close approximation of the latitude.

 

In reality, there are more northern sabal palmettos growing on Bluff Island (33.865512, -77.967944),

 

on Middle Island (33.871167, -77.985054),

 

and on Smith Island (33.882495, -77.980757).

 

Some of you may think that's a cop-out and consider that entire array of islands part of the Bald Head Island system.  Fair enough.  Recently, I was touring Southport with my family.  My father was standing on the dock at Southport Waterfront Park.  The dock looks straight ahead at Battery Island.  He worked construction all his life and to this day doesn't wear glasses.  Somehow, he spotted a lone palmetto growing on Battery Island out in front of us with the naked eye.  I don't know how he noticed it, but I verified with the zoom on my camera - it is, in fact, a very old, fully grown palmetto growing on the scrubby little nothing-island.  I wish I took a picture, but trust me - it is there.  I believe I located it on satellite imagery (33.911391, -78.009687).

This hard-to-find palm would hold the title...if it weren't for a cluster of old palmetto trees I am surprised no one has noticed til today.  On Oak Island, there exists a patch of undeveloped woods (on an island that has otherwise been cut down to a densely populated beach community).  In this cluster of woods, very old palmetto grow.  They can be seen plain as day here at (33.914670, -78.205078):

 

If you bring up Google Street View, you can see them with your very own eyes.

 

I believe these sabal palmetto trees are, in fact, the true most northern trunking palm trees in the country.  It is a shame we humans have done so much damage, because it is clear that if we never came along, all of Oak Island would be littered with the beautiful tree.

 

Once I get down there permanently, I intend to do exploring to see what I can find.  Maybe more northern clusters exist?  There are plenty of untouched islands along waterways that may harbor secrets.  This untouched island easily accessible by kayak looks interesting to explore off of Holden Beach.

 

I would love to find a palm at 34 degrees N latitude.  I haven't given up hope - it may exist.

 

 

 

I do the same thing! I look for palm on Google Earth. There is also some suggestion that Sabal minor may grow in the very southeastern part of Virginia near the North Carolina boarder. Sabal minor grow up to Monkey Island which is not far from Virginia. I could see a few plants scattered around here or there in some unexplored woodland or swamp. The area is zone 8a and there is native Spanish Moss which is actually less cold hardy than Sabal minor. Here is where Sabal minor would likely be found in Virginia if it ever were to be.

 

[Joe NC]

On 8/3/2017, 11:04:55, Anthony_B said:

Some of you may think that's a cop-out and consider that entire array of islands part of the Bald Head Island system.  Fair enough.  Recently, I was touring Southport with my family.  My father was standing on the dock at Southport Waterfront Park.  The dock looks straight ahead at Battery Island.  He worked construction all his life and to this day doesn't wear glasses.  Somehow, he spotted a lone palmetto growing on Battery Island out in front of us with the naked eye.  I don't know how he noticed it, but I verified with the zoom on my camera - it is, in fact, a very old, fully grown palmetto growing on the scrubby little nothing-island.  I wish I took a picture, but trust me - it is there.  I believe I located it on satellite imagery (33.911391, -78.009687).

check out my comments on this in this other thread:

That Battery island Palm is pretty neat.  here is a photo that I posted in the other thread.

 

[Anthony_B]

On 10/1/2017, 10:24:59, Joe NC said:

check out my comments on this in this other thread:

That Battery island Palm is pretty neat.  here is a photo that I posted in the other thread.

 

That is an awesome photo.  I am officially a North Carolina resident.  This is my first week here.  When the heat dies down and the bugs go to sleep I want to do some more exploring, but the woods are too swampy right now.  I did some hiking at Carolina Beach State Park and there are sabal minor all over the woods there.  I would like to make my way back out to Bald Head Island when the deciduous trees drop their leaves.

[Anthony_B]

Some pics from Carolina Beach State Park.  They all contain native palmetto growing in the wild - if you can find them.  Enjoy the hunt.  Some are pretty tough to find.

This one is a beast and is probably older than I am.

 

A couple bonus pictures.  One of the Intracoastal Waterway.

And one because I just love live oak.  They're so eerie yet whimsical.

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Anthony_B

[Joe NC]

20 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

I am officially a North Carolina resident.  This is my first week here.  When the heat dies down and the bugs go to sleep I want to do some more exploring, but the woods are too swampy right now. 

This is off topic, but if your plant nerd leanings are like mine, you have to check out the Green Swamp Preserve.  Access is off highway 211 (green swamp road), and you park at the parking area with next to the small pond (cant miss it on google).  I'm sure there is a Sabal in there somewhere, but what you are there for is the carnivores.  Flytraps, 4 species of pitcher plants and all their hybrids, and multiple sundew, butterwort, and bladderwort species.  Go in the early fall before frost (now, wear bug spray...) to see sarracenia with pitchers, or the spring (april?) to see them all in bloom (just starting to put up pitchers).  Just follow the trail/old road that leads southeast from the parking lot.  It's not really "swamp", but more like damp pine savanna with pocosin in the mix.  Take it through the first savanna, over a foot bridge in the dense wooded wetland and into the second open savanna where the trail becomes a foot path.  Look around in/under the grass and you will see all the smaller carnivores.  The pitchers are pretty obvious once you start walking, especially to the back of that second open part.  Also lots of orchids in the spring/summer if that's your thing.   

Yellow pitcher plants starting to bloom

Wild flytraps

 

[Anthony_B]

4 hours ago, Joe NC said:

This is off topic, but if your plant nerd leanings are like mine, you have to check out the Green Swamp Preserve.  Access is off highway 211 (green swamp road), and you park at the parking area with next to the small pond (cant miss it on google).  I'm sure there is a Sabal in there somewhere, but what you are there for is the carnivores.  Flytraps, 4 species of pitcher plants and all their hybrids, and multiple sundew, butterwort, and bladderwort species.  Go in the early fall before frost (now, wear bug spray...) to see sarracenia with pitchers, or the spring (april?) to see them all in bloom (just starting to put up pitchers).  Just follow the trail/old road that leads southeast from the parking lot.  It's not really "swamp", but more like damp pine savanna with pocosin in the mix.  Take it through the first savanna, over a foot bridge in the dense wooded wetland and into the second open savanna where the trail becomes a foot path.  Look around in/under the grass and you will see all the smaller carnivores.  The pitchers are pretty obvious once you start walking, especially to the back of that second open part.  Also lots of orchids in the spring/summer if that's your thing.  

 

You're going to laugh, but I already have plans to go there.  It is this weird jet stream trough we're stuck in that's keeping me away. It hit 88 degrees today with nearly 90% humidity all day, and it has been this way since Friday.  What a wild October so far.  That is on my list once this humidity dies down.

 

Oddly enough, the Carolina Beach State Park trail I walked was the Flytrap Trail.  I didn't find a single one.  I've always wanted to see one, and I was researching to see if bulbs could be purchased on Amazon.  Nope!

 

Coincidences.

[VA Jeff]

http://www.garysnursery.com/TheSabalMinor.html

Here is an entertaining good ol boy I used to know in eastern NC.  He knows more about palms in North Carolina than anyone else on earth.  He knows just about every native stand in the state, and has visited Monkey Island and Bald Head Island looking for palms, not to mention many otherwise unknown native stands in swampy areas.  I used to walk to his nursery from my best friend's house (until my friend moved).  When I told everyone I was going there, they would say, we'll come by to drag you away in a couple hours.

[Joe NC]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2017‎ ‎11‎:‎04‎:‎55‎, Anthony_B said:

I believe these sabal palmetto trees are, in fact, the true most northern trunking palm trees in the country.  It is a shame we humans have done so much damage, because it is clear that if we never came along, all of Oak Island would be littered with the beautiful tree

Don't discount the possiblity that these Sabal are wild offspring of cultivated and transplanted palms, and not remnant natives.  People have been living on and have had easier access to Oak Island a lot longer than Bald Head, and there have been many palms planted there.  There are many Sabal planted within a few hundred yards of the wild plants in the street view. 30-40 years is enough time for a Sabal to grow up through the scrubby vegitation, and they have probably been planted on the island in decent numbers over that time frame.  There are many of these wild volunteer S. palmetto (some with large trunks) around the Cape Fear region that I have seen.  I feel the same horticulturalists over a hundred years ago who were struck by the Native Sabal and strikingly different sub-tropical plant community on Bald Head would have noted their presence on Oak Island?  It is also easy to confuse east with north, when moving "up the coast" from the SC line to the Cape Fear River.  So maybe without the benifit of GPS or Google Earth it was just intuitive to say Bald Head is the northern (actually eastern) limit of thier range. ??? 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2017‎ ‎7‎:‎48‎:‎07‎, Anthony_B said:

 I would like to make my way back out to Bald Head Island when the deciduous trees drop their leaves.

There are very few deciduous trees or shrubs out there, lots of needled or broadleaf evergreens. There are some tardily deciduous oaks, but I did also notice some devil's walkingstick, which is pretty hard to miss.

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2017‎ ‎9‎:‎52‎:‎03‎, Anthony_B said:

You're going to laugh, but I already have plans to go there.  It is this weird jet stream trough we're stuck in that's keeping me away. It hit 88 degrees today with nearly 90% humidity all day, and it has been this way since Friday.  What a wild October so far.  That is on my list once this humidity dies down.

Oddly enough, the Carolina Beach State Park trail I walked was the Flytrap Trail.  I didn't find a single one.  I've always wanted to see one, and I was researching to see if bulbs could be purchased on Amazon.  Nope!

Expect days in at least the 70's to be possible any month of the "winter", but with that said it just takes a tempermental polar vortex and we see nights in the low teens.  It's these handfull of very cold nights that can happen which really limits what cold sensitive things grow long term here. 

The flytraps can be tough to spot until you know where to look for them, I always imagained them as "swamp plants" but in reality they mostly grow in sand or peaty sand under wiregrass. In the late spring their blooms that sick up a foot or more from the traps really give them away. 

Pretty much any big box store will carry them in little plastic boxes and you can plant and grow them outside here with ease.  The native soil in your yard may be ideal habtat for them as is, or you may need to make a special lined bed for them.  I have/had a bunch in my carnivore garden, but they don't compete well with the much more vigorous Sarracenia, and I really need to dedicate a slightly drier bed just for them.        

[Desert DAC]

A coworker who once lived around Wilmington NC told me of another cabbage palm stand, when I mentioned those from the posts from Oak Island.

He mentioned a Sabal palmetto stand further north than that and further north than Wilmington NC. It is near a place called Castle Hayne, right off of I-40 as one enters a swampy area nearby. He's seen those palms personally. His theory is that seedlings from those should be hardy in Raleigh, given they are inland. I'll see if he can show me on Google where that location is, plus I'll share this post with him.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Desert DAC

[Anthony_B]

9 hours ago, Desert DAC said:

A coworker who once lived around Wilmington NC told me of another cabbage palm stand, when I mentioned those from the posts from Oak Island.

He mentioned a Sabal palmetto stand further north than that and further north than Wilmington NC. It is near a place called Castle Hayne, right off of I-40 as one enters a swampy area nearby. He's seen those palms personally. His theory is that seedlings from those should be hardy in Raleigh, given they are inland. I'll see if he can show me on Google where that location is, plus I'll share this post with him.

I know exactly the area you're referencing.  It's on I-40 north of Wilmington by about 20 mins.  They are sabal minor, simple dwarf palmetto.  You can find these as far north as Monkey Island.  They're all over the woods where I live if you do a little bit of searching.  This is just an exceptionally large patch.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.4349857,-77.8727447,3a,15y,262.35h,84.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4DSUTtdhEwftd-cPPgqVGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

They go on and on and on and on for hundreds of feet.  They're on both sides of the interstate.  I can't imagine how substantial that patch was before humans came to the area.  They must've cleared out thousands to build I-40.  It's astounding how thick the population is for as far north as we are.  This looks like a swampy area in Florida.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Anthony_B