The Bald Head Island Most Northern Palm Myth

[Desert DAC]

2 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

I know exactly the area you're referencing.  It's on I-40 north of Wilmington by about 20 mins.  They are sabal minor, simple dwarf palmetto.  You can find these as far north as Monkey Island.  They're all over the woods where I live if you do a little bit of searching.  This is just an exceptionally large patch.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.4349857,-77.8727447,3a,15y,262.35h,84.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4DSUTtdhEwftd-cPPgqVGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

They go on and on and on and on for hundreds of feet.  They're on both sides of the interstate.  I can't imagine how substantial that patch was before humans came to the area.  They must've cleared out thousands to build I-40.  It's astounding how thick the population is for as far north as we are.  This looks like a swampy area in Florida.

That's a drag! But I'll verify with him whether his were minors or trunking S. palmetto, and if your stand is them or they are somewhere else. He's quite adept with plants, plus being from Louisiana originally knows his southern plants. But maybe he misheard me?

[CroToni]

On 5/8/2017, 22:33:29, Anthony_B said:

People forget just how far north the United States is from the Equator.  Even northern Florida is 40% of the way to the Arctic.  Where I am in Pennsylvania - a Zone 7a, the warmest pocket of the state - we are basically 2/3 of the way to the Arctic Circle.  I think people are so used to looking at maps oriented where the US is at the center they don't have a grasp of a true Equatorial view of the Earth.

Factor in the way the Rockies are oriented, which forces the West->East jet stream to divert around them up into Canada, then back down into the Mid-Atlantic and this is why we can't have nice things at 34 degrees N latitude here while London can sit all the way at 51 degrees N latitude and have beautiful Canary Island Date Palms flourish.  It just isn't fair.

CIDP's cant really flourish in London,too wet and cool year round.

They can grow though.

[PalmTreeDude]

As for Sabal Palmetto in the Myrtle Beach area, I used to think these where possible wild palmettos, but it seems that they were just ones that were "forgotten." 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7748206,-78.7896829,3a,44.7y,283.33h,92.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sceQb8yUdVKmpC0iOjRmt7Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But, if you look back into the woods a little bit behind where I found these, you see two Sabal palmetto seedlings coming up or what I think are Sabal Palmetto. You can see the fronds starting to curl, so I do not think they are Sabal minor. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7752165,-78.7890845,3a,75y,267.29h,73.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syLcH2Y69AkEpbQaXa37kug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here are some that look naturalized. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7825026,-78.7876187,3a,44.6y,313.64h,79.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBuEQUbMaEIBtWXvEhsFwVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7826551,-78.7873951,3a,16.4y,323.89h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swnv_RBoddK0LhDcv_4R-gw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7843877,-78.7841022,3a,15y,334.34h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA_vntAh7hj-tn-LY_wcuow!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited December 29, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[PalmTreeDude]

Off topic, but jeez! Look how big the Washingtonia got! 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7747552,-78.7904083,3a,76.2y,62.02h,87.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjLRzN11HhlIYlm9m_vbFtQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Anthony_B]

On 12/29/2017, 1:58:18, Desert DAC said:

That's a drag! But I'll verify with him whether his were minors or trunking S. palmetto, and if your stand is them or they are somewhere else. He's quite adept with plants, plus being from Louisiana originally knows his southern plants. But maybe he misheard me?

I would like to hear if I'm right or wrong.  I hope I'm wrong, it would be awesome if trunking stands were nearby.

 

If he's from Louisiana, he may consider the sabal minor a palm tree.  That's the only palm native to Louisiana, I believe.

[PalmTreeDude]

16 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

I would like to hear if I'm right or wrong.  I hope I'm wrong, it would be awesome if trunking stands were nearby.

 

If he's from Louisiana, he may consider the sabal minor a palm tree.  That's the only palm native to Louisiana, I believe.

There is also Saw palmetto, on the extreme Eastern side of the state by Mississippi. 

[Anthony_B]

4 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

There is also Saw palmetto, on the extreme Eastern side of the state by Mississippi. 

If this map is accurate, that would appear to be true.

 

http://www.plantmaps.com/nrm-serenoa-repens-saw-palmetto-native-range-map

 

No trunking palms in Louisiana, though.  Which is strange, because Lousiana's climate is more tropical than either of the Carolina's.  It's interesting why the palmetto traveled north more successfully than west.

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, Anthony_B said:

If this map is accurate, that would appear to be true.

 

http://www.plantmaps.com/nrm-serenoa-repens-saw-palmetto-native-range-map

 

No trunking palms in Louisiana, though.  Which is strange, because Lousiana's climate is more tropical than either of the Carolina's.  It's interesting why the palmetto traveled north more successfully than west.

I know that there are some naturalized populations of Sabal palmetto in Lousisiana, but why it did not naturally go that far is also a mystery to me. If you look at the Sabal palmetto range on that site, it is actually missing some areas with native populations in South Carolina. They go all the way up the Harbor River, which is not highlighted and you can see them on the same map in a section where it says they are not native. I have actually driven down the coast line and they are just about everywhere with marshes, including other areas where the map says they are not native. But for the most part it seem right to me. I wonder if the map is just old? 

Edited January 5, 2018 by PalmTreeDude

[Desert DAC]

On 1/3/2018, 8:53:03, Anthony_B said:

I would like to hear if I'm right or wrong.  I hope I'm wrong, it would be awesome if trunking stands were nearby.

If he's from Louisiana, he may consider the sabal minor a palm tree.  That's the only palm native to Louisiana, I believe.

I talked more with my coworker on the palms in the Castle Hayne area north of Wilmington NC.

He recalls the larger, trunking palms were east of I-40 and showed me on Google maps where they were - along Holly Shelter Rd and back into the woods and another road called Sidbury Rd. My Google street view drive revealed nothing like those larger, trunking palms, but that doesn't allow you to see much into all those forest areas. He added their fronds were smaller than Sabal minor, and how some were in an area that had a limestone type of rock or aggregate being mined. This was at least a decade ago, so who knows now with mining. 

My coworker's speculation is that he thinks those might have been more stunted S. palmetto, since those would be towards the north end of their range? So, there you have it. I hope those are some relic or depauperate S. palmetto, and that one of you nearby finds and photographs them. Good luck! 

But given the Brazoria and Garcitas Creek Sabal in the middle Texas Gulf Coast or S. louisiana, all forming short trunks, maybe all those N of Wilmington are large S. minor or some ancient hybrid as well.

Gary's Nursery was mentioned as a source of information who might know more.

[Anthony_B]

On 2/7/2018, 11:57:29, Desert DAC said:

I talked more with my coworker on the palms in the Castle Hayne area north of Wilmington NC.

He recalls the larger, trunking palms were east of I-40 and showed me on Google maps where they were - along Holly Shelter Rd and back into the woods and another road called Sidbury Rd. My Google street view drive revealed nothing like those larger, trunking palms, but that doesn't allow you to see much into all those forest areas. He added their fronds were smaller than Sabal minor, and how some were in an area that had a limestone type of rock or aggregate being mined. This was at least a decade ago, so who knows now with mining. 

My coworker's speculation is that he thinks those might have been more stunted S. palmetto, since those would be towards the north end of their range? So, there you have it. I hope those are some relic or depauperate S. palmetto, and that one of you nearby finds and photographs them. Good luck! 

But given the Brazoria and Garcitas Creek Sabal in the middle Texas Gulf Coast or S. louisiana, all forming short trunks, maybe all those N of Wilmington are large S. minor or some ancient hybrid as well.

Gary's Nursery was mentioned as a source of information who might know more.

Interesting.  I've never been up this way, but it looks very, very thick.  I can't imagine how much time it would take to scour the area.  Did your coworker have more specific location information?  Were they growing up along the roadway, or was this something located while exploring?  There are so many dirt roads and powerline easements it would be impossible to know where to begin.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/34.335915,+-77.831404/@34.3465553,-77.8575341,4193m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!7e2!8m2!3d34.3359151!4d-77.8314041

[Desert DAC]

On 2/20/2018, 8:20:20, Anthony_B said:

Interesting.  I've never been up this way, but it looks very, very thick.  I can't imagine how much time it would take to scour the area.  Did your coworker have more specific location information?  Were they growing up along the roadway, or was this something located while exploring?  There are so many dirt roads and powerline easements it would be impossible to know where to begin.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/34.335915,+-77.831404/@34.3465553,-77.8575341,4193m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!7e2!8m2!3d34.3359151!4d-77.8314041

I also think it would take much effort and permission to access that land. I asked my coworker again today, and what I noted was all he could recall - his sighting was 10 years ago. He did say the Sabal species were located while working and exploring some distance from the road, deeper in the woods. To this desert rat, those woods and their vegetation density are the opposite of what we have here, where it's wide open and only steep in areas.

[Anthony_B]

On 2/23/2018, 11:49:50, Desert DAC said:

I also think it would take much effort and permission to access that land. I asked my coworker again today, and what I noted was all he could recall - his sighting was 10 years ago. He did say the Sabal species were located while working and exploring some distance from the road, deeper in the woods. To this desert rat, those woods and their vegetation density are the opposite of what we have here, where it's wide open and only steep in areas.

A lot of this area is blocked off.  There is a Duke Energy facility there, so I assume all the power lines and substations back there are theirs.  If I had a truck, I wouldn't mind checking out a few of the non-blocked dirt roads.  Now's the time to explore since the bugs are still dormant for the time being and a lot of the trees are just starting to bud, so you can see pretty deeply into the woods.  That won't be the case in a few weeks.  If I had to put money on a spot, I'd put my money on here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B020'06.7%22N+77%C2%B049'01.3%22W/@34.3351811,-77.8175712,220m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x0:0x0!2zMzTCsDIwJzA5LjMiTiA3N8KwNDknNTMuMSJX!3b1!7e2!8m2!3d34.3359151!4d-77.8314041!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d34.3351796!4d-77.8170245

[Joe NC]

12 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

A lot of this area is blocked off.  There is a Duke Energy facility there, so I assume all the power lines and substations back there are theirs.  If I had a truck, I wouldn't mind checking out a few of the non-blocked dirt roads.  Now's the time to explore since the bugs are still dormant for the time being and a lot of the trees are just starting to bud, so you can see pretty deeply into the woods.  That won't be the case in a few weeks.  If I had to put money on a spot, I'd put my money on here:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B020'06.7%22N+77%C2%B049'01.3%22W/@34.3351811,-77.8175712,220m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x0:0x0!2zMzTCsDIwJzA5LjMiTiA3N8KwNDknNTMuMSJX!3b1!7e2!8m2!3d34.3359151!4d-77.8314041!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d34.3351796!4d-77.8170245

Some of this land is for sale! The palms could be yours (haha)

http://www.starnewsonline.com/news/20180226/need-land-corbett-industries-selling-17000-acres

Also, I have been up Island Creek to near where it crosses Holly Shelter road in a boat and didn't notice anything trunking.  Most of that area is managed as pine plantation, so you probably could limit your palm hunting to the lands that haven't been logged.  There are some large nearly trunked S. minor around the Cape Fear drainage.

Cape Fear S. minor showing a small trunk.  1 liter bottle for scale.

[Anthony_B]

On 2/27/2018, 11:09:31, Joe NC said:

Also, I have been up Island Creek to near where it crosses Holly Shelter road in a boat and didn't notice anything trunking.  Most of that area is managed as pine plantation, so you probably could limit your palm hunting to the lands that haven't been logged.  There are some large nearly trunked S. minor around the Cape Fear drainage.

Cape Fear S. minor showing a small trunk.  1 liter bottle for scale.

I wonder if sometimes people mistake these as sabal palmetto.  There are some gnarly minor at Carolina Beach State Park.  That place is a real gem that few know about.

[Dave P]

Call me crazy - but I've noticed 8 ft tall sable palms growing along the fence a car dealership along I-95 just south of Lumberton, NC - which is 75 miles inland from Atlantic and about 75 miles further N than Bald Head Island. I always make a point of identifying the first sign of palmetto growth as one drives S along the I-95 and Lumberton NC is it!